Please Critique our IGP Build Plan...

[mschmidt33]

All,
Finalizing the details of our spring IGP pool install in SE Michigan… we picked a builder after months of research and having about 8 people come to our house. Looking for opinions on our plan that we are narrowing in on with our builder.

Kafko - Kidney 18’ x 36’ Vinyl IGP - 14 gauge galvanized steel with X frame every 4 ft. Sport pool 3.5ft on both ends with gradual taper to 5.5ft in middle. No sharp bottom corners, all radius. Grout bottom, no foam padding. About 18,000 gallons.

- Is 5.5ft good in the center? I’m 5’11” and the wife is 5’4”. Girls are 3 and 5.
- Grout or Vermiculite bottom?

2X 8ft Roman End Curved In Wall Steps in Blue Granite
2X deck Jets with actuated valve for automated control
2 Main drains
4 Returns (2 main and one in each step), all separate runs
1 Skimmer
2” PVC Schedule 40, Dark grey PVC above ground, encased in concrete around pool vs. in backfill
Cantilever concrete coping (including steps), brushed and colored. 1 ft around pool

Stamped and colored concrete patio 4ft additional (5ft total) around pool plus 150 additional sq ft for lounger patio and sidewalk. 2ft surrounding pool has rebar, rest with wire mesh and fiber mesh.

30 mill vinyl liner – Kafko Blue Granite. No fake border.
150 linear feet of 48” Ultra RSP fencing style UAF-200 flat top plus additional 4ft x 4ft wide walk gate. Color: Satin Black.

Hayward Pro-Logic PL-PS-8 with SWG T-Cell 15 (40K)
Hayward Aqua Pod AQL2-POD
Hayward Integrated Colorlogic 4.0 Color LED Light - SP0527LEDXX (don’t need remote with Aqua Pod)
Hayward SP2610X152S 2-Speed 1.5hp Super Pump

- Do not know if we will even be able to use the low speed with the solar on my garage about 20ft above the pump. Go back to single or step up to variable speed?

Hayward H250FDN - 250K btu electric ignition gas heater
- Consider a larger heater?

Hayward S220T Pro Series Top Mount Sand Filter filled with Zeo-Brite
Poured equipment pad

Solar panels - 360 sq ft, Enersol model S-1000, 4ft by 10ft boxes. Qty = 9 boxes. Solar install includes grey PVC and actuated valves for automation.

Kafko Super-Scrim Full Weight Mesh Safety Cover contoured to pool and covers both steps. Color: Green

Builder includes: Manual vacuum, pole, head, pool brush, leaf net, hose hangers, rope, float kit, thermometer, starter chemicals (including salt to correct ppm), and test kit

No ladders, only two hand rails for steps (stainless/brass)
100% water trucked in as our water is not the best
Backwash plumbed out to yard past fencing
Custom solar cover including steps. Roller included.
Sacrificial anode in skimmer
Anchors in concrete for volleyball net, including inserts for an umbrella in each step. Capped when not being used.

Also considering The Tigershark QC robot cleaner? We are getting close to our budget so I will probably clean manually the first year to see if we really need this. Thinking about an autofill as well.

Any recommendations/opinions are welcome.
Mike

 

[JohnT]

It seems pretty reasonable and sounds like a nice pool. A lot is, of course, personal preference.

Fencing is concern. Depending on local codes, it can be fairly expensive. Existing fences seldom qualify. Height, spacing and construction are all different for pool fences, and gates are required to be self-closing and self-latching. Doors must be alarmed. I paid about $3500 for an aluminum fence around my 20X36 with two gates.

You don't mention a gas line. Do you know that your existing line will handle the heater?

You don't mention electrical work. I would consider it very important that you ask the builder or his electrician about bonding, particularly about bonding the rebar and mesh in the deck. If the words NEC 680.26 or equipotential bonding grid don't show up in the conversation, make sure it is addressed. A great many electricians and pool builders are unaware of the rules, and problems may not show up for years. Here's a thread which will show you why it's important stray-current-t7007.html?hilit=tingle Just search for bonding here and you'll see several more people with problems of a similar nature.

After we built our pool, we learned that children+pool=bathroom trips. Into the house, through the living room in a dripping bathing suit. Drinks and snacks brought more trips into the house. Along with all of their friends. We built a cabana/poolhouse with a 12X16 screened sitting area, a bathroom and an equipment room. Even if you can't afford to or aren't sure you want something like that now, if it's in the realm of possibility you might plan for it generally so you can allow for sewer lines etc. if you do. Sometimes it could be just a matter of moving the pool a foot or two or burying 30ft of sewer line "just in case".

 

[bk406]

I'll add my 2 cents, I'm sure i'll think of more. Off the top i'd say it sounds pretty good. I like the grout bottom better than vermiculite. Also, get a 400,000 BTU heater. They dont cost much more and it wil heat the pool a lot faster. It wont use any more gas than the 250 since you wont run the 400 as long.

You are also pushing the size of pool where 2 skimmers might be warrented rather than just the single.

 

[mschmidt33]

Fencing is in the plan as well, I just left it out... 150 linear feet of 48” Ultra RSP style UAF-200 flat top plus additional 4ft x 4ft wide walk gate. Satin Black.

I also accounted for a new gas line run of about 60ft and all the electrical/permits, etc. I will look into the bonding issue... thanks!

I agree with the bathroom issue... we luckily have a door right off our patio going directly into the mather bath. This is our solution for now and we think it will work.

Thanks again for the suggestions!

It seems pretty reasonable and sounds like a nice pool. A lot is, of course, personal preference.

Fencing is concern. Depending on local codes, it can be fairly expensive. Existing fences seldom qualify. Height, spacing and construction are all different for pool fences, and gates are required to be self-closing and self-latching. Doors must be alarmed. I paid about $3500 for an aluminum fence around my 20X36 with two gates.

You don't mention a gas line. Do you know that your existing line will handle the heater?

You don't mention electrical work. I would consider it very important that you ask the builder or his electrician about bonding, particularly about bonding the rebar and mesh in the deck. If the words NEC 680.26 or equipotential bonding grid don't show up in the conversation, make sure it is addressed. A great many electricians and pool builders are unaware of the rules, and problems may not show up for years. Here's a thread which will show you why it's important stray-current-t7007.html?hilit=tingle Just search for bonding here and you'll see several more people with problems of a similar nature.

After we built our pool, we learned that children+pool=bathroom trips. Into the house, through the living room in a dripping bathing suit. Drinks and snacks brought more trips into the house. Along with all of their friends. We built a cabana/poolhouse with a 12X16 screened sitting area, a bathroom and an equipment room. Even if you can't afford to or aren't sure you want something like that now, if it's in the realm of possibility you might plan for it generally so you can allow for sewer lines etc. if you do. Sometimes it could be just a matter of moving the pool a foot or two or burying 30ft of sewer line "just in case".

 

[mschmidt33]

Good to hear about the grout as that is what our builder recomended... I just have not researched that yet. That is not the first time I heard upgrade to the 400K. I will look into it.

As for a 2nd skimmer... I brought this up and he did not recommend it as we would be splitting the suction with this 2nd skimmer and it may not work as well. We get a nice consistant wind in one direction on most summer days and we plan to factor that into the location.

Thanks for your input as well...

I'll add my 2 cents, I'm sure i'll think of more. Off the top i'd say it sounds pretty good. I like the grout bottom better than vermiculite. Also, get a 400,000 BTU heater. They dont cost much more and it wil heat the pool a lot faster. It wont use any more gas than the 250 since you wont run the 400 as long.

You are also pushing the size of pool where 2 skimmers might be warrented rather than just the single.

 

[waste]

Hi there

1 skimmer is OK as long as it's in the center of the pool and the 2 pool returns are located as to force floating debris to it.

I strongly prefer vermiculite! It allows water to pass through it and is softer on the liner.

Where is the pool equipment going? If it's outside the fence, and not close to the gate, you might want to consider another gate leading to the filter pad

I assume that the skimmer has it's own line from the pool to the pad (if not ) I would suggest using the second port in the skimmer to run a 'reserve line'. The pipe would be plugged at the skimmer and stubbed up and capped at the pad. This way, heaven forbid anything ever happens to the main skimmer line, you don't have to break up your stamped deck to fix it :idea:

When trucking water in to fill a liner pool, please make sure they deflect the flow so that the force of the water doesn't wrinkle the floor (if you want more info on the last 2 things, just ask )

Keep the 2 speed pump, as soon as the several states get their acts together, they'll be mandatory.

Sounds like a reasonable build to me, but listen to what the others here have to say

 

[bk406]

I strongly prefer vermiculite! It allows water to pass through it and is softer on the liner.

Ted and i agree on most, but this aint one of them

Use the grout bottom. Listen to your builder. Sorry Ted

 

[mschmidt33]

Thanks for the tips... the equiptment is staying outside the fence but next to the path and one gate that we have. I'm working on a CAD drawing... will post it up when finished.

Hi there

1 skimmer is OK as long as it's in the center of the pool and the 2 pool returns are located as to force floating debris to it.

I strongly prefer vermiculite! It allows water to pass through it and is softer on the liner.

Where is the pool equipment going? If it's outside the fence, and not close to the gate, you might want to consider another gate leading to the filter pad

I assume that the skimmer has it's own line from the pool to the pad (if not ) I would suggest using the second port in the skimmer to run a 'reserve line'. The pipe would be plugged at the skimmer and stubbed up and capped at the pad. This way, heaven forbid anything ever happens to the main skimmer line, you don't have to break up your stamped deck to fix it :idea:

When trucking water in to fill a liner pool, please make sure they deflect the flow so that the force of the water doesn't wrinkle the floor (if you want more info on the last 2 things, just ask )

Keep the 2 speed pump, as soon as the several states get their acts together, they'll be mandatory.

Sounds like a reasonable build to me, but listen to what the others here have to say

 

[mschmidt33]

Will the solar system work on low speed? The builder say we need at least 10gpm for it to work. The top of the panels could be close to 25ft above the pump. I can't find any 2-speed pumps with 25ft of head on low speed. The builder said he will upgrade the pump free of charge to a larger or more efficient 2-speed if needed. He is thinking the Hayward Northstar 2hp if needed. What do you guys think? I could not find anything on this while searching...

Mike

Hi there

1 skimmer is OK as long as it's in the center of the pool and the 2 pool returns are located as to force floating debris to it.

I strongly prefer vermiculite! It allows water to pass through it and is softer on the liner.

Where is the pool equipment going? If it's outside the fence, and not close to the gate, you might want to consider another gate leading to the filter pad

I assume that the skimmer has it's own line from the pool to the pad (if not ) I would suggest using the second port in the skimmer to run a 'reserve line'. The pipe would be plugged at the skimmer and stubbed up and capped at the pad. This way, heaven forbid anything ever happens to the main skimmer line, you don't have to break up your stamped deck to fix it :idea:

When trucking water in to fill a liner pool, please make sure they deflect the flow so that the force of the water doesn't wrinkle the floor (if you want more info on the last 2 things, just ask )

Keep the 2 speed pump, as soon as the several states get their acts together, they'll be mandatory.

Sounds like a reasonable build to me, but listen to what the others here have to say

 

[dmanb2b]

While you are waiting for Ted to respond, give Mark (Mas985) a PM, he is pretty familiar with pump/solar requirements as well.

 

[mschmidt33]

Just PM'd him... thanks.

While you are waiting for Ted to respond, give Mark (Mas985) a PM, he is pretty familiar with pump/solar requirements as well.

 

[mas985]

Setting up solar for low speed of a two speed pump is a bit tricky but it can be done with a proper setup. However, you need to keep a few things in mind when doing this.

First, solar efficiency is best when you can keep flow rates about about 0.1 GPM/sq-ft of panels. With 360 sq-ft of panels, that is about 36 GPM which isn't really all that much so you might be ok there on low speed.

Second, you must have a controller that will prime the panels on HIGH speed first and then "allow" the motor to drop to low speed while solar is engaged. Unfortuanately, the PS-8 does not allow you to run solar and low speed at the same time. If set up as instructed in the manual, when ever there is a demand for solar, the motor will automatically kick into high. As far as I know, there is no way around that so this could be your biggest problem.

Third, even if you could get the motor to stay on low with solar at the same time, you still have the issue of the vacuum release valve. Normally, they are installed at the top of the panels since this allows the panels to quickly drain when the motor shuts off. However, in order to remain closed on low speed, the valve would need to be place 6-8 ft above the pad on the solar supply side so it can remain closed with much lower pressure of low speed. As long as the vacuum release valve stays closed and the solar pipes are full of water the net static head will be 0 and does not add to total head but as soon as the VRV opens, static head jumps by 25' and the pump on low speed will be dead headed.

So like I said, it can be done but you will need to solve some of the above issues. This is why a variable is so nice for solar because you can set the flow rate low enough for energy savings but high enough to keep the VRV closed. Plus the contoller will automatically switch to the proper speed for each function.

I have a two speed pump but I reduced the impeller to a 1/2 HP (full rate) in order to minimize the energy consumption for solar. So I run at high speed with solar but it is only a 1/2 HP high speed so not too bad. I just use low speed for circulation and filtering. Low speed really isn't good for much else.

In your case, you could very well do the same and simply swap out the impeller for a 1 HP or even a 3/4 HP (max rate) Superpump version and save a bit on energy costs even at high speed. Plus if you use a solar cover, you really won't need much time on solar anyway. I can usually get away with a couple hours a day and maintain 88 degrees.

 

[mschmidt33]

Thanks for the reply... with just your 1/2hp motor, how do you vacuum and skim? Keep in mind I will have 4 returns plus two deck jets. I don't want to modify anything so what do you recommend a small single speed superpump or the Ecostar since 2 speed will not work?

Mike

Setting up solar for low speed of a two speed pump is a bit tricky but it can be done with a proper setup. However, you need to keep a few things in mind when doing this.

First, solar efficiency is best when you can keep flow rates about about 0.1 GPM/sq-ft of panels. With 360 sq-ft of panels, that is about 36 GPM which isn't really all that much so you might be ok there on low speed.

Second, you must have a controller that will prime the panels on HIGH speed first and then "allow" the motor to drop to low speed while solar is engaged. Unfortuanately, the PS-8 does not allow you to run solar and low speed at the same time. If set up as instructed in the manual, when ever there is a demand for solar, the motor will automatically kick into high. As far as I know, there is no way around that so this could be your biggest problem.

Third, even if you could get the motor to stay on low with solar at the same time, you still have the issue of the vacuum release valve. Normally, they are installed at the top of the panels since this allows the panels to quickly drain when the motor shuts off. However, in order to remain closed on low speed, the valve would need to be place 6-8 ft above the pad on the solar supply side so it can remain closed with much lower pressure of low speed. As long as the vacuum release valve stays closed and the solar pipes are full of water the net static head will be 0 and does not add to total head but as soon as the VRV opens, static head jumps by 25' and the pump on low speed will be dead headed.

So like I said, it can be done but you will need to solve some of the above issues. This is why a variable is so nice for solar because you can set the flow rate low enough for energy savings but high enough to keep the VRV closed. Plus the contoller will automatically switch to the proper speed for each function.

I have a two speed pump but I reduced the impeller to a 1/2 HP (full rate) in order to minimize the energy consumption for solar. So I run at high speed with solar but it is only a 1/2 HP high speed so not too bad. I just use low speed for circulation and filtering. Low speed really isn't good for much else.

In your case, you could very well do the same and simply swap out the impeller for a 1 HP or even a 3/4 HP (max rate) Superpump version and save a bit on energy costs even at high speed. Plus if you use a solar cover, you really won't need much time on solar anyway. I can usually get away with a couple hours a day and maintain 88 degrees.

 

[mas985]

You really don't need a big pump for vacuuming and/or skimming. I too have 4 returns although no deck jets and I have a suction side cleaner that works just fine even with two skimmers and a main drain operating at the same time although I cut down some on the flow of the others so the cleaner gets a bit more.

I would stick with a two speed or a variable speed pump. Even though you need the higher speed on solar, you will still benefit at lower speeds when you don't need solar. The choice between the two is based on budget and desired features.

If you go with a two speed, I would downsize the pump some. The SuperPump SP2607X102S has about the same head curve as my 1/2 HP Northstar so I know that would work with solar and would use less energy than the SP2610X152S. It is also about as small a two speed as you can get.

However, the variable will save you more energy costs in the long run and will probably pay for itself over the life of the pump. The nice thing about the variable is that you will be able to tune the RPM to just what is needed for whatever feature you want. If you can afford it, a variable is certainly the way to go. Plus the controller you have will give you full control over the variable and allow to set what ever speed you want for solar. However, if you want to run solar at 36 GPM, you will still need to drop the vacuum release valve closer to the pad.

 

[mschmidt33]

So you are thinking a small 2 speed that runs on high most of the day with solar, only on low when solar is off? Variable seems to be a better choice. The Ecostar is like $900 where the Northstar we were thinking was $600? Shouldn't the variable pay for itself quickly?

You really don't need a big pump for vacuuming and/or skimming. I too have 4 returns although no deck jets and I have a suction side cleaner that works just fine even with two skimmers and a main drain operating at the same time although I cut down some on the flow of the others so the cleaner gets a bit more.

I would stick with a two speed or a variable speed pump. Even though you need the higher speed on solar, you will still benefit at lower speeds when you don't need solar. The choice between the two is based on budget and desired features.

If you go with a two speed, I would downsize the pump some. The SuperPump SP2607X102S has about the same head curve as my 1/2 HP Northstar so I know that would work with solar and would use less energy than the SP2610X152S. It is also about as small a two speed as you can get.

However, the variable will save you more energy costs in the long run and will probably pay for itself over the life of the pump. The nice thing about the variable is that you will be able to tune the RPM to just what is needed for whatever feature you want. If you can afford it, a variable is certainly the way to go. Plus the controller you have will give you full control over the variable and allow to set what ever speed you want for solar. However, if you want to run solar at 36 GPM, you will still need to drop the vacuum release valve closer to the pad.

 

[mschmidt33]

So as I understand it here are our options:

1) Single speed - I would want this as low hp as possible to run everything all the time for maybe 8 hours a day. Thinking 1hp. Solar would be good but skimming, vacuuming, and pump operating cost would be highest. Initial cost would be lowest though.

2) Dual speed - With solar, I think the low speed option would rarely be used as we plan to use solar a lot. Perhaps only in May or October we would have the solar off and be using the low speed for filtering and turnover. Hopefully this low speed could feed the heater enough to run as well. This seems like a dead end especially with the PS-8 control issues.

3) VSP - This seems like it would solve all issues when done correctly. Never owning a pool before and based on reading on the internet only, we could have at least 5 speeds programed. This scenario is just a guess. See below. Let me know if this is realistic.

1) May and October, Speed 1 - Lowest speed to keep gas heater and filter operating when wanting to heat the pool.
2) May and October, Speed 2 - Lowest speed to keep the filter operating and to turnover the pool the required amount
3) All Year, Speed 3 - High speed for vacuuming and skimming a few hours a day as needed.
4) June - September, Speed 4 - Medium speed to keep the solar system operating at 36gpm and filter. Revert to speed 2 the rest of the day.
5) June - September, Speed 5 - Pump solar priming speed.

Mike

 

[mas985]

Yes, that looks reasonable although you may find that setting 1 & 4 are close in RPM/GPM and 3 & 5 are close in RPM/GPM. Trial and error will tell.

Also, although you plan to use solar a lot, it doesn't mean that you will be able to run it all the time nor would you always want to. I'm sure like most places MI isn't sunny all the time so there will be times where lower speeds are desired when solar is not available. Also, if you have a string of very hot and sunny days, you will find that the solar may not need to run all day otherwise the pool will get too hot. So again, I think are are plenty of opportunities to run at lower speeds.

 

[mschmidt33]

Here is some more info... local electricty rates are about $.13 per kwh. Don't know if this is high or low compared to the rest of the US. It also appears we are only talking about a $300 difference. Our builder planned for a 2-speed Northstar or Tristar and it is in my base price.

The single speed Superpumps are around $300 with the bigger 2 speeds around $600 while the ecostar can be had for about $900. When will the ecostar pay for itself?

 

[bk406]

13 cents is reasonable.
I guess my 2 cents is that a single or 2 speed is fine unless you pay california rates for power (>40 cents!). Those other speeds are cute little toys to play with, but unless your electric rates are outrageous, they arent worth the money. And, being in michigan, your pool will only be open 6 month out of the year, max. All those savings you see quoted for a VS pump are basically for high electric rate areas and a pump that runs most, if not all year round.
Again, my opinion

 

[waste]

Hi again

I suggested keeping the proposed 2 speed pump because it will be mandatory (within a few years - the Feds are gonna make it mandatory within a couple of years).

You've heard from Mark (mas985) on this - and he's the best guy here to tell you about this sort of stuff!

If you have to run a 1.5 HP pump on high to make the solar work, it's still better than running a 400 BTU heater. And, as was pointed out, you won't always need to have the solar active You'll also be able to run it on low at night and enjoy those savings

I'm trying to get you a pump they will not only fulfill you immediate needs, but also comply with laws that will soon be enacted :-D