Fresh Water Pool

[merlock]

Fresh water system!!!
Our pool builder installed a Barramundi Fresh water system, (In Australia, i'm not sure under what brands it's sold overseas), but basically it uses titanium electrolysis to oxidise everything to keep the water clean, and adds very small amounts of copper (through electrolysis automatically) as an added algae preventative measure.

It's great because the water isn't salty and doesn't smell of chlorine, save on maintenance costs...it's just like swimming in bottled water lol so when u inevitably swallow a mouthfull of water, it's just like tap water. Of course you still need to add calcium if its a concrete pool, buffer and pH adjusters but u don't notice these at all. Having previously maintained a salt-water pool in another house, which was previously chlorine this is by far the best to swim in and maintain.

Make sure you know exactly how much dumping fees will cost, we didn't ask and they're generally not included in the quote because it depends on whether the fill is "clean" i.e rock, we added an extra $20 000 in dumping fees alone, so make sure you ask!!!

Oh and if you get a free form shaped pool, solar covers reallly don't work, we discovered this on ours after paying $1800 to satisfy government water regulations, it is too hard to get out due to having a skinny section in the middle. There are liquid covers available, based on silicon which spread across the water...i'm wishing we purchased one of these instead (although the liquid is VERY expensive.

Finally if you're installing solar, go for a modular panel system over the horrible black rubber draping your entire roof, its much more space efficient and works better on windy/cooler days than the rubber, however it is substantially more expensive.

My pool (2 months old) 12.5x5.0m Concrete-fully tiled Freeform pool, barramundi freshwater system, waterco cartridge filter,

 

[bk406]

Re: Have to have! Wish I had! Tell us about your pool.

you will get good advice and great ideas here. :

I'll stand by what I wrote here. However, the above post....um, well...not so much in terms of the fresh water system. The dumping fee he speaks of can be an additional cost, but not 20k, not in the US.|

 

[Bama Rambler]

Re: Have to have! Wish I had! Tell us about your pool.

Merlok -- While I know nothing about the particular system you mention, I do know that without some residual sanitizer you're not swimming in bottled water, it'd be more like a septic tank.

Do a search for alternate sanitizers and you'll find out that you have to have some sort of residual sanitizer or your pool isn't safe to swim in.

 

[bk406]

Re: Have to have! Wish I had! Tell us about your pool.

Why don't we keep this thread to your own individual preference about your pool and leave out your opinions on what everyone else posts!

HA!! good luck with that!

Seriously, part of the reason that cant be done is because there are certain tenants here at TFP that preclude us from NOT giving an opinion. In the case of alternative sanitizers, nothing will be better than plain old chlorine, period. Most, if not all, of the alternatives are snake oil at best and probably downright no good at worst. So yea, you will get strong opinions on a lot of things. Thats the way this works, really. What you dont want is to be led down a path thats dead wrong and think these alternative sanitizers are legitimate. As I said, do your DD. Same with other opinions too. There are pluses and minus to a lot of things. Matter of fact, most of us who have pools DO have strong opinions one way or another. And...we have all started doing research like you have, some more some less. If it werent for opinions, there is no way YOU can come up with an informed opinion either. There are just too many options for builds, pool types, equipment, etc NOT to have opinions one way or another.

 

[ccp]

Re: Have to have! Wish I had! Tell us about your pool.

I don't have a problem with anyone sharing their opinion about their OWN preference. If you read my post above, I think it is pretty clear. I am just not interested in hearing YOURS, NOR ANYONE ELSE'S opinion about SOMEONE ELSE'S opinion. Doesn't seem like to much to ask, but for some people it might be too much to ask.

And in the case of alternative sanitizers, when I want to find information about that, I will research it and form my own opinion about the pros and cons to the various options.

 

[merlock]

Re: Have to have! Wish I had! Tell us about your pool.

Merlok -- While I know nothing about the particular system you mention, I do know that without some residual sanitizer you're not swimming in bottled water, it'd be more like a septic tank.

Do a search for alternate sanitizers and you'll find out that you have to have some sort of residual sanitizer or your pool isn't safe to swim in.

No actuallly, the system uses an electronic oxidiser to introduce oxygen into the system, and uses an ioniser to introduce Cu2+ ions at 0.3-.07 ppm conc, (see barramundipools.com.au). The cu2+ ions acts as an algaecide, the system is run for 8hours a day in summer, 4 hours in winter.

The only chemicals added to the pool are a sodium bi-carbonate buffer (40-80ppm), and CaCl, to prevent leaching of calcium from the concrete. At the moment we are also adding HCl acid to counteract the effects of fresh concrete, however this is only temporary and the Cl quickly evaporates leaving the pool Chlorine free, far from a septic tank.

Also forgot to mention lights, we went for the most expensive and best L.E.D ones available, we love them but at $1000 a light they're not for everyone. They cycle through 7 different colours however to be quite honest the only ones we like are blue and white, so you can save allot of money if you're happy with just one colour. Also before i get attacked about pricing, those are super compact, super bright ceramic L.E.D's. You can get much cheaper equivalents, achieving a very nice effect, they're just a bit bulkier.


Btw i have a Bsc. Bio-tech, which basically means i'm a chemical engineer with a degree in molecular biology, so i know a thing or two about sanitation lol, seeing as a uni project was to design a sewerage treatment plant.

 

[bk406]

Re: Have to have! Wish I had! Tell us about your pool.

And in the case of alternative sanitizers, when I want to find information about that, I will research it and form my own opinion about the pros and cons to the various options.

Search TFP and look for alternative sanitizers. You will find that they are pretty dubious at best. You wont find the folks here use them at all or even recommend them. Most rely on metal ions, mostly copper, to act as an algecide. Copper can and will stain your pool. The amount of residual chlorine recommended for the pool is no high enough to kill pathogens either, especially if stabilizer is used.

So, yea, you will get opinons on opinions, especially on things such as alternative sanitizers. But again, do you DD.

 

[dmanb2b]

Re: Have to have! Wish I had! Tell us about your pool.

I was hoping this thread would be about what each individual person likes about their own pool and what they would do differently if they were building their own pool or building a new pool again.
For instance: Have to have: Salt water system, baja step, colored lights, automated controls.
Could live without: pool slide, deep end ...

Why don't we keep this thread to your own individual preference about your pool and leave out your opinions on what everyone else posts! Everyone has a unique perspective on their own pool and there pool likes and dislikes.

CCP welcome to TFP. If you'd like to establish your own forum with it's own rules, please feel free to do so. This is a privately owned forum available for public use and as long as posts meet the Site Rules & Forum Etiquette folks can do as they wish. The question you have asked in your initial post has been asked many times before and you can likely find various answers by performing a simple search on the site, rather than soliciting limited opinions during a much slower posting period on TFP I believe you will get a broader set of opinions using the search function and reading through the under contruction area, rather than from the limited number of members online, in the offseason months, willing to respond to your post. With that said, I think you have a good idea and hopefully more folks will respond.

As for BK's post and his opinion of someones else's set-up, he is simply cautioning you to avoid an alternative sanitization system in the US. TFP prefers the use of chlorine in residential pools. Besides chlorine, the only other two sanitizers that are currently approved by the EPA for use in the US, would be Bromine (indoor pools) and Baquacil (although you will see many members here who have switched to chlorine from baq.). Here is our position on alternative sanitzers and why we do not advocate the use of such methods.... alternative-sanitizers-and-chemical-free-pools-the-truth-t3025.html

Again, welcome to TFP, you will find a wealth of knowledge here.

 

[Bama Rambler]

Re: Have to have! Wish I had! Tell us about your pool.

Neither Oxygen nor Copper is a sanitizer. Copper is an algaecide but chlorine kills algae without the staining risk. A pool without a sanitizer isn't sanitary. Plain and simple.

The requirements for sewage treatment and a pool sanitation are very different things.

However, it's your pool so you can swim in whatever you wish. What I don't want happening is for someone to come along and read your post and think it's sanitary, because it's not.

 

[merlock]

Re: Have to have! Wish I had! Tell us about your pool.

Neither Oxygen nor Copper is a sanitizer. Copper is an algaecide but chlorine kills algae without the staining risk. A pool without a sanitizer isn't sanitary. Plain and simple.

The requirements for sewage treatment and a pool sanitation are very different things.

However, it's your pool so you can swim in whatever you wish. What I don't want happening is for someone to come along and read your post and think it's sanitary, because it's not.

Oxygen not a sanitiser? You do realise that i'm not talking di-atomic oxygen? I agree di-atomic isn't generally (excluding anaerobic organisms). However in the electrolysis of water O- is present, as O- cannot exist on its own for more than a pico second or two, it reacts with water to form H2O2, a much much more potent disinfectant than Cl, which reacts to form HOCl in water when added. H2O2 is used by every cell in our body to destroy pathogens during phagocytosis, used in most hospital-grade bleaches instead of Cl based bleaches.

The great thing about H2O2 is that it quickly decays back to water and O2. While yes this site advocates against the use of H2O2, i believe they are referring to the addition of aqueous hydrogen peroxide and not specifically to its generation within the sanitation system by electrolysis. Within the chamber the H2O2 levels are high enough to quickly kill any pathogens, outside of the chamber they are not very high as obviously that would be irritating. However they are at high enough levels to offer some residual protection. Again i must stress my original point that the system is run every day to maintain the residual levels and to kill any new pathogens. Yes you cannot turn this system off without adding a sanitiser, that is a weakness however while it is operational it is better at sanitation than chlorine as the entire volume of the pool goes through that pump every 3 hours of operation.

Don't believe me? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide

My pool is sparkling, we have an extremely heavy loading from gum leaves and insects, the pool operates at 32 degrees Celsius, (89.6 f). ALthough we have a cover, we don't use it so all that debris goes into the pool and it is still sparkling. I can go outside, put a cup in my pool and drink it, can you do that with your chlorine or salt chlorinated pools?

As for copper staining...the copper is maintained at a level of 0.3-0.7 ppm, the safe drinking standard is 3.3 ppm, so the stuff you get out of your tap can have a higher concentration than my pool. I quite agree that in higher concentrations it can stain, but not at such low concentrations. If you go and buy a bottle of algaecide, look in the ingredients...there are two main types and one is just aqueous copper.

I think you should reserve your criticisms about systems you don't know anything about, because i'd hate for someone to come along and get the wrong impression.

I quite agree that there are allot of crack-pot sanitation systems out there, this is not one of them. I'm the first to question the efficacy of a sanitation system, i have a degree in molecular biology i understand just how critical sanitation is, probably overly paranoid about it. I was very-very hesitant at first about not having a chlorine based pool, however after researching this particular system i was satisfied and i'm still very happy with it. Please let people form their own opinions based on science rather than fear-mongering against anything that doesn't use chlorine.

 

[David121]

Re: Have to have! Wish I had! Tell us about your pool.

You're both wrong.

Bama Rambler: Cu in its ionic form can be used as a residual sanitiser, the Cu2+ ions are attracted to the cell walls of bacteria and algae during the growth stage resulting in their death. It is however only effective on actively growing organisms. Viruses are also inactivated but i won't go into detail here.

Merlok: The electrolysis of water with titanium electrodes (as used by the barramundi system) generates ozone directly, not H2O2. The ozone is highly corrosive and much more potent than chlorine, however it decomposes to O2 very quickly leaving no residual ozone in the system.

The system uses both processes to sanitise water, the copper prevents any growth, as cell division is inhibited and non-dividing cells/copper resistant are destroyed by the ozone when it passes through the chamber.

I've been using this system for almost 4 years now with no problems, however as Merlok said it does have to be run every day and i don't know how it goes with the shutting down for winter, as i've never bothered because it requires no additional chemicals anyway and just turns on with the skimmer.

Source: http://www.wwdmag.com/Bacterial-Control ... rticle4227 , http://nochemicalpool.com/oxidization.php

 

[duraleigh]

Re: Have to have! Wish I had! Tell us about your pool.

Mike (ccp),

As bama', bk406, and dman have pointed out, alternative sanitizing systems have proven themselves over the years to be generally inadequate.........that's pretty factual and not much opinion included.

Your rejection of their very sound advice (which could save you thousands of dollars) is puzzling to me as if you are being selective as to what you want to hear. That's surely not the case, is it?

As the premier site for residential swimming pools on the net, our long-term members (like the three above and countless others) have developed information and data over the years that is rock solid and virtually unassailable on pool care....particularly pool water chemistry.

If you knew nothing of pools and I gave you my opinion that having alligators in your pool was a really good idea, I would think you would welcome another's advice that there might be some adverse side effects.

I believe I understand the direction you intended this thread to take but I am puzzled by your aggressive rejection of the very help you asked for.

 

[bk406]

Re: Have to have! Wish I had! Tell us about your pool.

Please let people form their own opinions based on science rather than fear-mongering against anything that doesn't use chlorine.

I think you will find more science on this site than you ever thought possible! The use of these alternatives, the pro's and con's have all been detailed on TFP so many times it's really getting old and redundant. Chem Geek goes into the science behind these syatems and backs up what he says with refereed journal articles, so quoting wiki doesnt really cut it. We have PhD level biologists, engineers, chemists, and every other stripe of professional represented here so you will find the science here highly regarded.

As I said, much has been discussed on these systems on TFP if one does some simple searches. David is pretty spot on with most of what he said in regards to how the system works. In reference to what he said about Bama's comment that copper is not a sanitizer, Bama's comment was related to it being an APPROVED sanitizer, I believe. while it is true that copper will kill algea and it will kill bacteria, the kill times are on the order of hours, not seconds, as is chlorine. It is true that chlorine in combination with stabilizer can have kill times comparable with copper, the amount of copper need has to be higher than the 0.3-0.7 ppm touted by these systems (and yes, this small amount of copper WILL stain the pool). And, copper is not really effective against a virus. In addition, copper is not too effective against a constant addition of bacteria, or algea for that matter, into a body of water such as a pool.
As has been stated before, the use of ozone, free radicals, or what ever else one could come up with, is not really effective in a large body of water. Water treatment plants can use this since the water can be sequestered for a period of time in tanks. Ozone in a small chamber such as on a pool system leave NO residual in the water. Just because the water was treated by UV, ozone, peroxide, etc before it went into the pool doesnt mean it stays sanitary for very long once it hits the pool.

I think you should reserve your criticisms about systems you don't know anything about, because i'd hate for someone to come along and get the wrong impression.

Me too. By reading your post, one would think that this system used hydrogen peroxide. As David pointed out, it's ozone.

Yes you cannot turn this system off without adding a sanitiser, that is a weakness however while it is operational it is better at sanitation than chlorine as the entire volume of the pool goes through that pump every 3 hours of operation.

.

So you have to run the pump 24/7? For a 3 hour turnover on a 20,000 gallon pool, that would require a flow rate of over 110 gallons per minute. Thats a mighty high flow rate considering most pools systems turn the water every 8 hours or so. At that flow rate, the filter would have to be huge to filter anything at all. Plus, the plumbing would need to be heavy duty and the pump would have to be huge as well.

The last thing I'll say is that just because the pool is "sparkling clear" doesnt mean its sanitary. And, there is a reason why the EPA doesnt have these things approved as a sanitizer....they dont work as well as chlorine!

Now i'll play along.
Glad i did: SWCG; heater
Wish I had: 4 returns instead of 3; LP heater in addition to the heat pump
Wish I didnt have: nothing, i like everything I got

 

[ccp]

Re: Have to have! Wish I had! Tell us about your pool.

Dave,

I understand your point and really appreciate this forum and the people who are knowledgeable and contribute too it (bama', bk406, and dman and yourself). I guess my goal of this thread was not to discuss alternative sanitizers. I however think it is valuable to have such a thread, as it would probably be a disaster for someone who chose a poor alternative sanitizer without proper education.
I was looking for a light and fun thread about what people like about their own pools. For instance, I have to have: pool automation equipment, slide, baja step, water feature. Wish I had: a bigger pool, a deep end with a diving board
Could live without: my colored lights, my beach entry.

I have read threads like this on another website and it was a great discussion point for my wife and I as we designed our pool. It gave us some ideas and things to discuss that I was not smart enough to know or think about on my own. For instance, everyone says you can't have enough concrete around your pool or your shallow end can't be big enough, no one ever says their pool is too big, many say their pool is too small.

Again, thank you all for making this such a great forum to learn and share our opinions and sound advice. I also appreciate that you share your opinions when they are contrary to what other people have posted, so that us newbies can educate ourselves.

 

[merlock]

Re: Have to have! Wish I had! Tell us about your pool.

Sorry, i made a mistake...but H2O2 can be produced as a bi-product even if its not the primary product, still ozone is a more potent oxidiser again. Point being on its own neither copper ions (NOT THE chelated stuff) or ozone can sanitise a pool but together they overcome each other's short comings making a far superios system.

The EPA might not approve it (in your country) however i've toured a bio-tech company which produces FDA approved drugs using an ozone system to purify their water source for the manufacture process, FDA>EPA. Before you say its different because its not an open system like a pool, it is in this situation as the water is reclaimed from a fermentation tank and FDA regulations are much more stringent than any one elses, so if its good enough for them its good enough for anyone.

 

[bk406]

Re: Have to have! Wish I had! Tell us about your pool.

Before you say its different because its not an open system like a pool, it is in this situation as the water is reclaimed from a fermentation tank .

Apples and oranges. You cant compare what your talking about to a pool. The FDA approved methods for ozone purification are indeed sound. The point you are still missing is that the purification is ultimately performed in a closed, finite system where no additional bacteria or other nasties continue to contaminate the water. In a pool, there is no residual ozone, period. Once the water leaves the chamber and exits to the pool, a bird could flying over, Crud in the pool, and leave a nasty mess. Without a residual sanitizer, you have bacteria on your hands, and everywhere else, so to speak. That water does no get sanitized again until it reenters the chamber, hours later. Now, your relying on a little bit of copper to kill the pathogens in the bird Crud that has a kill time on the order of hours, not seconds, or even minutes.

I still want to know how you have a 3 hour turnover time.

(Moderator, as you said you would move this thread to the deep end, i'm still going to reply here).

 

[merlock]

Did i not make it clear that the plant reclaims its water? Tap water is purified, passed into a fermentation tank containing mammalian cells which have been genetically engineered to produce a specific product. The water is reclaimed from the tank, purified and put back in...so like a pool...only if a single bacterial cell is found in the the fermentation tank the entire batch (worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in media alone) is dumped because it won't pass FDA regs.

You clearly have no idea just how easily bacteria can contaminate something, this system is designed so that you could take a dump in the water before its purified and there still not be a problem.

 

[merlock]

How is a 3 hour turn over time a big deal? We have a pump which has a maximum capacity of 25kL/hour...you do the math. And we want the skimmer box running to get rid of leaves anyway so its not like its costing more in energy.

 

[David121]

I fear Merlok is making things worse, please let me explain the system in more detail.

DISCLAIMER: I am a second year biology/chemistry university student, its actually my parents pool however i maintain it.

You do not have to run it 24/7, in our pool the water is turned over by the pump every 2.5 hours (25 000L/Hr, 65 000 litre pool). In summer it is run for 8 hours per day, it needs to be split roughly equally throughout the day. So in summer effectively the entire volume of the pool passes through the chamber 3 times a day. Inside the chamber the titanium plates have a low current passed across them causing a corona discharge and hence the production of Ozone. As Merlok points out the O- ion can react with water but in preference reacts with O2 to form O3, i.e ozone.

I'm sure the efficacy of Ozone as a sanitiser is not in-dispute here, i'm sure we can all agree that any virion particle, or living organism when exposed to high ozone levels is destroyed. However this is only in the chamber, this is the more active side of the system and i recognise that Ozone plays no part in the residual sanitation of the pool.

Copper in its ionic form is however a residual sanitiser.

The copper is added electronically by a second electrolytic cell as Cu2+ ions. It is not added as a chelated compound. In its ionic form Cu prevents the ACTIVE growth of organisms. Similar to penicillin it prevents the synthesis of cell walls when an organism tries to actively grow. However like penicillin it is not effective against organisms that are not undergoing growth or division. So yes it is completely useless on cells which are not making any changes to the cell wall. If a cell however is not making changes to its cell wall then it can't really be doing much can it? Certainly not dividing.

Cu2+ can bind to some virion particles rendering them inactivated, however this is ultimately determined by the virus type, the presence of a nucleocapsid, or matrix will change the effectiveness.

The page warning against alternative systems mentions coppers use as an effective drinking water sanitiser, it may have a slow total kill time, i.e killing all cells but it does prevent any active growth of cells. But with the pool water being turned over at least three times a day through the ozone chamber everything is removed from the system with in 8 hours (obviously depending on how you have it set up.)

As for the staining, yes copper can stain, however not in its ionic form. In its ionic form it cannot form a solid and remains in solution, if you however add some carbonate or sulphate ions you will chelate the copper and it will stain. In this system as the only other chemicals added are a buffer (sodium bicarbonate) and CaCl (to protect form leaching Calcium from the concrete) it is not a problem assuming the correct pH and TA parameters are kept.

Sodium bicarbonate has a pKa value of 7.2, i.e at pH=7.2 according to the henderson-hasselbach equation, pH=pKa + log (salt/acid) the concentration of carbonate ions is 50% as compared to the acidic form (CO3 2- vs. HCO3-). So to prevent the carbonate in the buffer reacting with the Cu ions, forming copper carbonate and staining the pool the pH has to be maintained below 7.2 (preferably 7.0).

Assuming those parameters are maintained there is no issue what soever with staining.

When the pool was first built due to the concrete rapidly raising the alkalinity as it cured, we did have a problem with the copper reacting and then staining, however that was due to my laziness in adding acid and the stains disappeared after a few weeks.

This system has been approved for domestic use in Australia, and is now used by most of the premier pool builders.

In order of sanitation systems i prefer this the most, however if you don't trust it chlorine in my opinion is nicer to swim in than salt because salt always leaves u feeling crispy afterward.

 

[dmanb2b]

Merlock,

I'll take a minute to say welcome to TFP I truly mean that.

I will allow you discussion/debate to continue with BK406 as pehaps we can all learn from the discussion. You certainly appear to have in-depth water chemistry knowledge as you will find many of our other memebrs do as well. I am not going to inject myself into the debate, however, to the extent possible, could you please give use some specifics on you pool and all the equipment needed to run this Baramundi system?

Information I think myself and others would like to see:

Baramundi system cost

- Filter type/media
- Pump specifics
- You mentioned a 3 hour turnover...how are you acheiving that in a 15-20k gallon pool? Even if you could achieve such a flow rate and physically pump let's say 20K gals in 3 hours, 100% of the pool water is still not circulated. Each turnover only really filters 70-80% of your pool water as there is always variation in pool water circulation, with no separate holding tank for the freshly filtered water.
-What regular testing do you perform to confirm the water is sanitary?
- Latest water chemistry (TA,CH,PH, copper) I'll assume you are not testing for FC, CC or CYA since you are not using chlorine


Lastly I would like to say that hopefully you have not taken offense, in my moving your suggestion to the Deep End section of our forum. It is our opinion that until we better undertsand your system, we can not recommend it's usage to the avg non chemistry PHD pool owner. That said, giving us some education as to how your system works may help us understand better.

Thanks and welcome!