Viron P300 Pump (versus Intelliflo & ePump)?

[mixedup]

Hi,

I have been looking into the Pentair Intelliflo, however I have come across this Viron P300 Pump which seems to be less expensive. Also assuming I go for replacing my filter pump only (not solar pump as well) then perhaps the 3hp Intelliflo is overkill anyway, as my current Pool pump is only 1.25hp.

http://www.astralpool.com.au/products/viron-p300-pump

Any comments from people re this Viron P300 Pump as a means of saving $ on electricity versus the other brands. One thing I note is that it seems to have only 3 speeds? But maybe this isn't an issue if the low speed setting is good?

thanks

Existing System
* Size: ~50,000L 9m x 4.5m kidney shaped pool (13,208 Gallons 29' x 14.7')
* Pumps Height Above Top of Pool Leave = ~1m (~3 feet)

(A) Filter Side

(1) Pool Pump
* Poolrite SQI-500 Quiteline
* Input Power 1300W
* Output: 930W / 1.25hp
* Min Suction Pipe Size (mm) 40-50
* URL: http://www.poolrite.com.au/products/19

(2) Zodiac LM3 Pool Chlorine Generator
* has timer to control pump for filter & also can set level of chlorine generation
* http://www.zodiac.com.au/chlorine-gener ... rator.aspx

(3) Sand Filter

 

[mcoccia]

Check out the home and green forums at whirlpool.net.au for quite a few discussions on the Viron P3300. I considered this pump but ended up importing Intelliflo VF's from the US.

 

[mixedup]

Check out the home and green forums at whirlpool.net.au for quite a few discussions on the Viron P3300. I considered this pump but ended up importing Intelliflo VF's from the US.

I'd be really interesting in hearing what made you decide to go that way? What about the risk of importing from overseas and how the warranty would work?

 

[teapot]

Another contender in the energy pump stakes is the Blue Eco, A Dutch company, (their web site isn't fully functional yet) but some general information is available
http://www.absolute-koi.com/subcat1865.html

The motor has 8 poles on the rotor compared to 4 on most other manufacturers pumps so develops more torque so uses a better impeller and with advanced true sign wave inverter out performs the intelliflow. It is fully variable speed not 3 speed like the Viron.

At the recent trade show I attended Pentair were running their demo sand filter without sand so showing everyone low energy usage but not really real world, it may have been too much of a problem to have filled it with sand for the exhibition or it may have been sales based to impress. The good thing is that the Blue Eco didn't have theirs on a filter either due to last minute descision to attend the show but I was able to compare the figuers for each pump and the Blue Eco was more efficient. The new models will also come with a variable pitch impeller so should become the market leader but they are just not as good at the razamataz of sales compared to Pentair.
Stated figures for both pumps at 5 metres head:
intelliflow 460 watts 11.8 m3 flow
Blue Eco 383 watts 10.2 m3 flow

They may have deliberately picked points where their pump was more efficient than intelliflow but with the new impeller due soon it can only improve by giving you the option to fine tune pump performance to it's maximum.
Bigger diameter pipe work and using radius bends rather than elbows greatly improves flow so saves energy so that needs consideration too. I noted that the Pentair ClearPro filter also has larger internal pipe work to lower the frictional losses.

 

[susa]

> Another contender in the energy pump stakes is the Blue Eco, A Dutch company
> brushless DC electric motor technology

Had this been available last month, I would have definitely tested it out as all my (4) heatpumps (for air conditioning...not pool) are DC compressors and both blower and compressors are capable of running at any speed.

A conventional AC blower consumes 1000 watts (or more) where a DC blower uses just 40 watts

That said, the IntelliFlow VF can be set to inifinite speed(s) and my current setup is running 24 hours/day at just 95 watts, absolutely silent operation.

 

[mixedup]

Any feedback/comments on the Viron P300 however guys? Anyone able to comment on whether the Viron would really save less electricity than the Intelliflo?

I read somewhere the Intelliflo gets up to 90% savings, and the Viron about 70%, but there was no justification in the article. Looking at the tables I note that the Intelliflo has four speeds and can get down to 750 RPM, whereas the Viron has 3 speeds and can only get down to 1900 RPM.

Viron
[attachment=0:1fi50xqa]VironP300_OperatingHours.png[/attachment:1fi50xqa][attachment=2:1fi50xqa]VironP300.png[/attachment:1fi50xqa]
[attachment=1:1fi50xqa]VironP300_FlowTable.png[/attachment:1fi50xqa]

Intelliflo

 

[mcoccia]

Check out the home and green forums at whirlpool.net.au for quite a few discussions on the Viron P3300. I considered this pump but ended up importing Intelliflo VF's from the US.

I'd be really interesting in hearing what made you decide to go that way? What about the risk of importing from overseas and how the warranty would work?

I needed two pumps, one for normal filtration, cleaning and solar duties and a second pump for a 6ft waterfall. The Viron didn't have enough capacity for the waterfall and I wanted to use similar pumps so in the event of the main pump failing I could then swap it over.

Also the Intelliflo communicates and be controlled with my Jandy aqua link. The Viron is a stand alone device which requires someone to press a button to change operating modes.

In regards to warranty I'm building my pool as an owner builder. No warranty on the pumps is a minor concern. These pumps are available in Australia and can be serviced. In any case I have purchased two complete drive units on eBay very cheaply which I'll keep as spares. Worst case is the drive can readily be replaced with an industrial drive for about $500 however with the loss of auto functions.

Finally when I purchased my pumps intelliflo's has a retail of 4K each and sold for about 3K. They have now dropped in price to about 2K. If I was buying now I'd probably buy locally.

 

[chem geek]

I read somewhere the Intelliflo gets up to 90% savings, and the Viron about 70%, but there was no justification in the article. Looking at the tables I note that the Intelliflo has four speeds and can get down to 750 RPM, whereas the Viron has 3 speeds and can only get down to 1900 RPM.

The IntelliFlo does NOT have just four speeds. They simply chose to show a few RPM curves in their pump curve chart. The maximum RPM is 3450, but the minimum RPM you can set is 400 RPM and you can set anything in between. See page 10 in the IntelliFlo Owner's Manual. Page 47 shows some sample pump curves, but this is only at 3 selected RPMs while in reality there is a continuum of curves at every RPM from 400 to 3450.

Though the price varies, if you look online you will find that the IntelliFlo VF can be purchased for around $1200, but of course that does not include shipping or installation.

 

[mixedup]

thanks mcoccia & chemgeek

ChemGeek - Any ideas what the implication would be for saving electricity then with the Intelliflo's lower RPM's versus the Viron's 1900 RPM? So for a pool only (if I leave solar out of it) the difference in price here is roughly: Viron A$1300 (online stores down to A$600) versus Intelliflo A$2500. So the Viron is about 1/2 the price.

 

[susa]

mixedup,

pretty easy for you to calculate yourself.

insert your own kW rates. mine are 0.11 cents

so, running 24 hours at 100 watts = 2400 = 0.264 per day * 30 days = $7.92 per month

I actually run at below 100 watts and under 900 rpm speeds.

Just FYI, in the USA IntelliFlow VF is often quoted at over USD 1700.00 but can be purchased for close to USD 1000.00 from multiple locations.

 

[chem geek]

Every system is different, but in my pool you can see the range RPM and resulting flow rate and energy usage in this post. At 1900 RPM with the solar off in my pool, the IntelliFlo would be at around 32 GPM and around 460 Watts. At 1460 RPM, it's 24 GPM and 255 Watts. At 1185 RPM, it's 15 GPM and 155 Watts. For energy usage, you need to compare the cost for one turnover. For my 16,000 gallon pool, that's (16000/32/60)*(460/1000) = 3.83 KWh at 1460 RPM. It's 2.83 KWh at 1460 RPM. It's 2.76 KWh at 1185 RPM. So you can see that once you get down to around 24 GPM or so, at least in my pool, there is little savings at lower RPM for equivalent turnovers. My calculations are using the IntelliFlo wattage whereas in your comparison you would need to use the Viron's actual wattage.

I suspect the payback will be long unless you have high electricity rates. The marginal rate where I am is around 32 cents per kilowatt-hour so payback times are shorter.

 

[mixedup]

thanks

ChemGeek - I took the figures you did and converted to cost per quarter (i.e. assuming cycle water once per day) and go the below. I kind of suggests that the benefit in having a pump that can go lower than 1900 RPM to say 1400RPM is quite worth it. Difference in cost/quarter was about 27%. Do you think this then implies that the Intelliflo has roughly that much more potential to save money (noting Viron's lowest RPM is 1900 RPM)?

[attachment=0:q6ey020j]Screen shot 2010-11-27 at 9.36.05 AM.png[/attachment:q6ey020j]

 

[teapot]

Mixedup, whilst your comparison is a good place to start there other variables, if it were a gearbox then you would be able to apply your reasoning but it's a pump and the impeller design and function means that at certain rpm's the setup is more efficient than at others (cavitation losses) and so different manufactures can claim more or less efficient figures. This is the reasoning behind watching the flow rate and power consumption as Chemgeek has posted from his results. From what I have seen at the lower rpm's all the pumps are pretty similar so if the Viron P300 cannot go slower then yes it may prove less economical overtime. As I posted with the Blue Eco it has and 8 pole rotor so produces more torque at the low rpm range so should be more efficient (in theory). That coupled to a varialble pitch impeller should make the Blue Eco the most efficient and fine tuneable pump available but if it costs more than the Intelliflow then you may never recover the additional cost if there is one. I am not sure the Viron is available in the UK yet so cannot pass much more comment until the Expo in February when hopefully they will launch it. Whichever way you look at it the savings compared to the ordinary pool pumps makes it an easy choice.

 

[mixedup]

hi teapot - unfortunately I can't find any hits from google for "new blue eco" / australian pages - take your points, so I really need to see some reallife measured figures on what the Viron P300 can do I guess. I'll do some googling...

 

[teapot]

If you can find some info I too would be grateful to catch sight of it, possibly email the Australian's. Yes the Blue eco is too new and they are really poor at marketing compared to Pentair.

It seems the Blue Eco is a follow on from the Red Dragon 2 dc motor pumps known again to the Koi carp aquarium crowd (due to the low noise and vibration which fish can sense, probably gives the fish a headache)
http://glassbox-design.com/2010/rd2-blue-eco-dc-pumps-aqua-forte/

And specifacally with some information http://glassbox-design.com/2008/royal-exclusiv-rd2-titanium-dc-pumps/

 

[Ranger987]

Just my .02 worth - it appears that the Viron is made by Astral, an Aussie brand that has been around a while and in spite of crazy low prices, has not been able to compete with the main players in the US. My personal experience with them is that they are an inexpensive knockoff of more durable products designed in the US. The people I know personally who have tried the product line have been very disappointed with performance and durability. I live in north Texas where heat is a factor, and the Astral products simply don't hold up in my region. If you decide to test it out, make sure there's a local company for warranty work or you may have to ship the whole thing somewhere to get it fixed when it breaks. In addition to shipping costs, you suffer 2-3 week downtime for your pool. You should also call this service company to see what they think about the product. It may well be a good pump, but Astral's history in my area makes me very cautious.

 

[teapot]

Ranger987,
I agree, it's the same with me looking at the Blue Eco, if the pump goes down sourcing parts in a hurry is a real issue. That said the BlueEco can pump marine salt water and is totally water immersable to 8metres so should be pretty tough, I noticed that the red dragon 2 did have a recall issue in N America for a power supply problem. Can't agree with a complete Astral comparison as they make/market so much that I confine comments of product comparison to similar products rather than other products in the range. But Waterco pumps (Australian) have a poor record in my book and do have more than a passing resemblance to Astral's.

 

[chem geek]

It's not the % savings that determines payback time, but at around $20 per quarter difference, that's $40 per year if you've got a 6-month swim season (assuming your winter pump time is far lower -- at least in half if not one-fourth -- or even zero if you winterize). So it would take many years to pay back a $500+ price difference in pumps. On the other hand, the issues of reliability and serviceability are important as noted in the above posts. It's really your call, but at least you've got more info to work with. Note that if you are using only my numbers that 1) that's specific to my system and your numbers may be quite different -- possibly much lower and 2) the Viron pump may have different characteristics so could be better or worse than the IntelliFlo numbers at the same RPM (you'd need the Viron pump curves including energy curves to know for sure).

 

[teapot]

I would like to publish the manufacturers curves and info for the Blue Eco for forum information, how to do that the easiest way?

 

[mas985]

Here are a few data points using the California Energy Commission test results. I made minor adjustments to give the same flow rates. All of the results use Curve-C at two flow rates 78 GPM and 30 GPM.

Pentair Intelliflo: 78 GPM, 3.2 Gallons/Watt-hr
Pentair Intelliflo: 30 GPM, 11.7 Gallons/Watt-hr

Jandy JEP 1.5: 78 GPM, 3.6 Gallons/Watt-hr
Jandy JEP 1.5: 30 GPM, 11.7 Gallons/Watt-hr

Hayward HCP3400VSP EcoStar: 78 GPM, 3.9 Gallons/Watt-hr
Hayward HCP3400VSP EcoStar: 30 GPM, 17.0 Gallons/Watt-hr

Badu Eco53: 78 GPM, 3.9 Gallons/Watt-hr
Badu Eco53: 30 GPM, 17.8 Gallons/Watt-hr

Unfortunately, they don't have data for other pumps but it at least gives you some comparison. The Badu is shown on the Koi site and may be a better choice for a pool pump rather than a pond pump. Both the Hayward EcoStar and the Badu seem to have the best performance even though the motor efficiency is not as high as the Intelliflo. This could be due to the wet end design.

If you are interested in a more direct cost comparison, I updated the pump comparision spreadsheet locate here with the newly added pumps.