Pentair Intelliflo configuration for this system?

[mixedup]

Hi,

Background - I am considering purchase of the Pentair Intelliflo to save electricity costs for my existing pool filter pump & pool solar heater pump.

Request - Is anyone able to review my below existing setup and provide an indication of what (a) components I would need to purchase and (b) how they would be connected together.

Specific aspects that I'm unclear about that would be great to cover off in the response would be:

• 1) How incoming water from pool would be plumbed together - i.e. I have one input from skimmer box to filter pump & two separate input points from the pool to the solar pump currently - would they all be used and connected to the single new Intelliflo pump?[/*:m:1slvfvr1]
• 2) Where do you put values to automate the cutting off of water: on the input side or output side of the pump[/*:m:1slvfvr1]
• 3) Would one typically allow a mode where both solar and filter would be on at the same time?[/*:m:1slvfvr1]
• 4) Assuming yes (i.e. there would be times where the modes would be "solar only" & "filter only" & "solar & filter both on") how would the pipes & values with actuators from the controller be designed, such that if there were value/controller problems there would never be the case when the pump would be sucking nothing in (i.e. all values closed) - I'm just being nervous here...[/*:m:1slvfvr1]
• 5) How can I confirm the pump would be OK for my needs (I assume it would as my solar pump is 1.5hp, and filter pump is 1.25hp, so I guess that means it would be adequate, and I can tune it's usage to the modes based on the speed setting?)[/*:m:1slvfvr1]
• 6) Which is the minimum cost controller that would do the job? I am guessing it would be the "Sun Touch" which seems to come with the temperature sensors & one value, so I would have to buy another value at least.[/*:m:1slvfvr1]
• 7) I assume I would not use any of the existing solar pump or it's controller in the new setup?[/*:m:1slvfvr1]
• 8) Should I assume that whilst the new controller (Sun touch for example) would determine when the filter runs/stops, that I would still leave the existing chlorinator controller connected as it has the setting for how much chlorine to produce? So it would remained turned "on" all the time? Or could the new controller be used to power it on/off when required to save a few more cents on electricity?[/*:m:1slvfvr1]
• 9) Could I assume that I would not have to re-cable the existing temperature sensor on the roof and this could be used with the "Sun Touch"?[/*:m:1slvfvr1]
• 10) Could I leave my creepy crawly connected to the skimmer box (/filter pump) all the time as I currently do? Would it decrease ability to save electricity by requiring more water flow than what could be achieved without a creepy?[/*:m:1slvfvr1]
• 11) I'd like the system to auto-shutoff if the pool had a leak and dropped below the skimmer box - it seems there is a model of the intelliflo that has this feature.[/*:m:1slvfvr1]

EXISTING SYSTEM:

* Size: ~50,000L 9m x 4.5m kidney shaped pool (13,208 Gallons 29' x 14.7')
* Pumps Height Above Top of Pool Leave = ~1m (~3 feet)
* Solar Pump to Roof Height = 2m + 2 storey house = say 8 meters (26 feet)

(A) Filter Side

(1) Pool Pump
* Poolrite SQI-500 Quiteline
* Input Power 1300W
* Output: 930W / 1.25hp
* Min Suction Pipe Size (mm) 40-50
* URL: http://www.poolrite.com.au/products/19

(2) Zodiac LM3 Pool Chlorine Generator
* has timer to control pump for filter & also can set level of chlorine generation
* http://www.zodiac.com.au/chlorine-gener ... rator.aspx

(3) Sand Filter


(B) Heating Side

(1) Pump
* Waterco Aquastream 150E, Product Code 2431150
* Power, 1.15kW, 1.5hp
* Input Watts: 1100W
* URL: http://www.waterco.com.au/CMS/default.a ... page_id=43

Thanks

 

[chem geek]

Welcome to TFP!

• 1) How incoming water from pool would be plumbed together - i.e. I have one input from skimmer box to filter pump & two separate input points from the pool to the solar pump currently - would they all be used and connected to the single new Intelliflo pump?
  
  Yes they would, BUT if you want to continue to get decent skimmer action and also have the Kreepy pool sweep work from suction at the skimmer, you may need an automatic 2-way valve that shuts off the 2 wall inputs that were used for the solar (assuming the IntelliFlo is the sole pump). This valve would come on when the solar came on and this would also switch the 3-way valve to have the output of the IntelliFlo go to the solar and then come back before going to the pool.
  
  [/*:m:1om5tg0h]
• 2) Where do you put values to automate the cutting off of water: on the input side or output side of the pump
  
  You can do either depending on what you want to do. Normally they are on the output side such as a 3-way valve directing flow to the solar system, but in your case it sounds like you may also need a 2-way valve for part of your suction (the two wall ports) so that your skimmer has enough flow when the solar is off.
  
  [/*:m:1om5tg0h]
• 3) Would one typically allow a mode where both solar and filter would be on at the same time?
  
  That would be normal. You usually want the filter on all the time whenever the pump is running.
  
  [/*:m:1om5tg0h]
• 4) Assuming yes (i.e. there would be times where the modes would be "solar only" & "filter only" & "solar & filter both on") how would the pipes & values with actuators from the controller be designed, such that if there were value/controller problems there would never be the case when the pump would be sucking nothing in (i.e. all values closed) - I'm just being nervous here...
  
  You wouldn't do that situation. The output from the pump after the filter would use a 3-way valve that will always be on somewhere. It either goes directly to the pool or it goes to the solar before coming back to go to the pool. On the suction side, the 2-way valve will never shut off all flow -- the skimmer will always be active.
  
  [/*:m:1om5tg0h]
• 5) How can I confirm the pump would be OK for my needs (I assume it would as my solar pump is 1.5hp, and filter pump is 1.25hp, so I guess that means it would be adequate, and I can tune it's usage to the modes based on the speed setting?)
  
  I'm sure it will be fine for your solar off case, but your solar pump is pretty large so you should tell us more about your solar system such as the size of the piping to/from it, the number of panels, how high they are (1-story or 2-story roof, etc.), how long are the runs approximately. OK, I see where you say it's a 2-story house so that explains a lot about why you have a separate booster pump for the solar. The IntelliFlo may not be able to handle your solar situation by itself so that could be a problem. Having the solar panels so high means they need a lot of pressure in order to not have too much negative pressure near the top of the panels near the pressure relief valve. Unfortunately, this may require you to keep your solar pump in which case your plumbing situation would not change at all and the IntelliFlo would just be used to be be able to tune a low flow rate and low cost when the solar is off. Unfortunately, that's not going to save you as much because most of your cost is probably when the solar is on.
  
  [/*:m:1om5tg0h]
• 6) Which is the minimum cost controller that would do the job? I am guessing it would be the "Sun Touch" which seems to come with the temperature sensors & one value, so I would have to buy another value at least.
  
  It does seem like the Sun Touch would work. The 3-way valve and the 2-way valve would both switch together for the solar on case so would be considered as one valve circuit (i.e. I believe they can be wired in parallel).
  
  [/*:m:1om5tg0h]
• 7) I assume I would not use any of the existing solar pump or it's controller in the new setup?
  
  Not if you want to save the most cost and be able to fine tune flow rates in your system even when the solar is on. However, the single IntelliFlo might not be powerful enough for your 2-story solar situation.
  
  [/*:m:1om5tg0h]
• 8) Should I assume that whilst the new controller (Sun touch for example) would determine when the filter runs/stops, that I would still leave the existing chlorinator controller connected as it has the setting for how much chlorine to produce? So it would remained turned "on" all the time? Or could the new controller be used to power it on/off when required to save a few more cents on electricity?
  
  The existing chlorinator controller isn't having the chlorinator on all the time now so there wouldn't be any change here. You could have the chlorinator hooked up to the new controller, but the only reason to do that would be if the new controller gave you something you don't already have such as remote wired or wireless control or something like that.
  
  [/*:m:1om5tg0h]
• 9) Could I assume that I would not have to re-cable the existing temperature sensor on the roof and this could be used with the "Sun Touch"?
  
  Yes, that is a reasonable assumption. Temperature sensors are fairly standard and in any event should not require recabling.
  
  [/*:m:1om5tg0h]
• 10) Could I leave my creepy crawly connected to the skimmer box (/filter pump) all the time as I currently do? Would it decrease ability to save electricity by requiring more water flow than what could be achieved without a creepy?
  
  You may need the 2-way valve I mentioned to force the solar off suction flow to all go through the skimmer in order to have enough flow rate for your Kreepy. So this isn't really much of a problem. Yes, you might not be saving quite as much compared to not having the Kreepy, but I don't think it's that much savings if the Kreepy only needs 25 GPM or so to operate. The worst part might be if all of this flow is going through a single 1.5" line, especially if it's a long run from the pool to the pump. Do you know the size of the piping coming from the skimmer to the pump?
  
  [/*:m:1om5tg0h]
• 11) I'd like the system to auto-shutoff if the pool had a leak and dropped below the skimmer box - it seems there is a model of the intelliflo that has this feature.[/*:m:1om5tg0h]

The IntelliFlo VF and VS+SVRS models have protection against loss of prime which is what would happen if the water level dropped below the skimmer box. The IntelliFlo VS 3050 model does not have this protection.

Your 1.5 HP at only 1100 Watts for the solar pump seems odd as normally such a pump would draw more power even if I assume this HP rating is up-rated. My 1 HP pump which was 1.5 HP up-rated drew more like 1700 Watts as a high-head pump which I presume is similar to your solar pump.

To be frank, your having the solar system so high up (i.e. on a 2-story roof) is going to make the electricity costs very high no matter what you do. You can possibly try using an IntelliFlo to "fine tune" the flow rate for the solar to not be as high as it currently is, if that still is reasonably efficient for solar heating, but the savings will likely not be very large. In my own pool, the savings with solar on is around 15%. It's with solar off that I got 85% savings for an overall average savings (including the elimination of the booster pump for the pool sweep) of around 50%. I'm concerned that a single IntelliFlo might not be able to handle your solar system. How many solar panels do you have and what is their GPM minimum and recommended and what brand are they? What is the plumbing to/from the solar and between panels on the roof (i.e. is it 2")?

 

[mixedup]

thanks for the response chem geek - re...

re Q4 - The output from the pump after the filter would use a 3-way valve that will always be on somewhere. It either goes directly to the pool or it goes to the solar before coming back to go to the pool. On the suction side, the 2-way valve will never shut off all flow -- the skimmer will always be active.

Oh. Assuming for the moment I may be able to get the pump to handle for solar, then in this case would I not want to avoid putting the solar path through the filter as well? That is it would add more resistance wouldn't it? Simplistically if my solar pump is 1.5hp wouldn't that imply a 3hp (IntelliFlo) should be able to handle if all being equal (and the filter wasn't in the path)?

Having the solar panels so high means they need a lot of pressure in order to not have too much negative pressure near the top of the panels near the pressure relief valve.

Not too sure about terminology here, however what we have is a very large black solar blanket, which is made up of lots of horizontal runs of small black plastic pipes. So it takes up quite a bit of room & is probably about 13 years old I guess.

You could have the chlorinator hooked up to the new controller, but the only reason to do that would be if the new controller gave you something you don't already have such as remote wired or wireless control or something like that.

The only thing I think of is on the existing controller you can set the level of chlorine that is produced. There about 4 or 5 setting points. Not sure if the new controller (e.g. SunTouch) would have this feature. There are wires from the chlorinator cell back to the chlorinator controller that no doubt is how the settings are carried out.

To be frank, your having the solar system so high up (i.e. on a 2-story roof) is going to make the electricity costs very high no matter what you do.

Good point - so if say the pump can handle it, then the question still may remain whether it would save any money. So noting the solar heating only gets used on the shoulder months to extend the season you could say most of the $$ over the year is for the electricity for the main filter pump. So in this case it may be easier to just leave the solar pump as is, and replace the filter pump hey? If I was sure this was still financially worth it I could then experiment with trying the new pump on the solar to see how it performed, and then if I can't get it working at a speed that would save power then leave the IntelliFlor just for the filter. How does this sound?

EDIT: Actually I remember from a video that there should be a 30% savings for these new pumps even at the same hp & pressure no? So that should imply that I really should get a 30% savings for the solar too, say assuming I run the solar only when it runs.

How many solar panels do you have and what is their GPM minimum and recommended and what brand are they? What is the plumbing to/from the solar and between panels on the roof (i.e. is it 2")

See above comment re the fact is more of a blanket (I can try to dig up brand in my records if this helps). The plumbing seems to be 2" which I measured roughly where it goes up/down side of house to the roof.

thanks again

 

[chem geek]

Oh. Assuming for the moment I may be able to get the pump to handle for solar, then in this case would I not want to avoid putting the solar path through the filter as well? That is it would add more resistance wouldn't it? Simplistically if my solar pump is 1.5hp wouldn't that imply a 3hp (IntelliFlo) should be able to handle if all being equal (and the filter wasn't in the path)?

Normally you always go through the filter, but you are right that perhaps in your situation there is so much resistance with the solar that they plumbed it not to go through the filter so only your main pump loop goes through the filter.

Not too sure about terminology here, however what we have is a very large black solar blanket, which is made up of lots of horizontal runs of small black plastic pipes. So it takes up quite a bit of room & is probably about 13 years old I guess.

That's a typical solar panel with 2" pipe headers at the top and bottom and lots of little tubes connecting them.

The only thing I think of is on the existing controller you can set the level of chlorine that is produced. There about 4 or 5 setting points. Not sure if the new controller (e.g. SunTouch) would have this feature. There are wires from the chlorinator cell back to the chlorinator controller that no doubt is how the settings are carried out.

I don't know the details of the SunTouch, but the SunTouch Pool and Spa Control System Installation and User's Guide on pp. 33-34 shows that you can set the percentage of on-time for the chlorinator relative to the pump on-time. You should double check with Pentair whether this controller can control chlorinators other than the Pentair IntelliChlor.

Good point - so if say the pump can handle it, then the question still may remain whether it would save any money. So noting the solar heating only gets used on the shoulder months to extend the season you could say most of the $$ over the year is for the electricity for the main filter pump. So in this case it may be easier to just leave the solar pump as is, and replace the filter pump hey? If I was sure this was still financially worth it I could then experiment with trying the new pump on the solar to see how it performed, and then if I can't get it working at a speed that would save power then leave the IntelliFlor just for the filter. How does this sound?

I didn't realize that you don't run your solar system during the summer and only run it to extend the season. In your case, you could certainly do as you described and just replace your main pump with the IntelliFlo and leave the solar pump and its plumbing as is. You should be able to get very substantial savings in electricity costs since you'll only need to have a flow rate needed for the pool sweep and even then you may not need to run it at that rate the entire time (though 25 GPM is usually low cost and close to the sweet spot for the pump).

EDIT: Actually I remember from a video that there should be a 30% savings for these new pumps even at the same hp & pressure no? So that should imply that I really should get a 30% savings for the solar too, say assuming I run the solar only when it runs.

This is only true at low to medium flow rates. At medium-high flow rates into high head (pressure), the pump isn't better than other pumps and is actually worse in some cases. I believe that my original Jandy HHP 1 HP (1.65 SF so 1.5 HP up-rated) pump was more efficient at its flow rate through solar than my IntelliFlo. I think the Jandy HHP was operating at around 1700 Watts at 55 GPM through solar while my IntelliFlo is around 2100 Watts at that flow rate -- total pressure (including suction side) being somewhere around 39 PSI or thereabouts. Basically, every pump has a peak efficiency combination of flow rate and head -- the IntelliFlo is just able to adjust speed to try and get closer to that optimum efficiency point, but when one gets near the 3450 RPM maximum, one doesn't have any room to play and may be forced to get away from the peak efficiency point which is at 100 GPM with around 33 PSI. The way I got my savings was by lowering the flow rate from 55 GPM to 48 GPM and saved 15% relative to my Jandy pump with the solar on. It's the solar off situation at 26 GPM with the huge 85% savings. Though I could have gotten substantial savings using a 2-speed pump, it's at these lower flow rates where the IntelliFlo pump's efficiency really shines.

See above comment re the fact is more of a blanket (I can try to dig up brand in my records if this helps). The plumbing seems to be 2" which I measured roughly where it goes up/down side of house to the roof.

OK. That still leaves the question of the plumbing size from your skimmer -- can you see what that looks like coming up from the ground to your pump? Is it 1.5" or 2" (outer circumference would be 6" vs. 7.5", respectively).

 

[mixedup]

OK. That still leaves the question of the plumbing size from your skimmer -- can you see what that looks like coming up from the ground to your pump? Is it 1.5" or 2" (outer circumference would be 6" vs. 7.5", respectively).

It's 2" by the looks. What does this tell then chem geek?

In fact, is there a way to determine for sure whether the intelliflo could handle my solar, or handle by solar+filter ok? For example if I bought some sort of pressure meter and run it on the inputs & outputs of each pump, would I then cross-reference formulas/tables from the http://www.troublefreepool.com/hydraulics-101-have-you-lost-your-head-t915.html#p6544 page? If yes what would be the basic approach, e.g. use measure pressures to calculate X, then reference table Y to calculate Z, then check A? (I guess I understand some information in the tables at the link, however it's the bigger picture view of what I'm trying to calculate and find out is where I'm getting lost)

 

[mas985]

mixedup,

As I pointed out on the other forum, my panels are about 25' above my pump but I am only using a 1/2 HP pump. In reality, you will have a 3 HP pump so no worries about the solar. The Intelliflo can run solar panels on a 3 story or even a 4 story roof.

If you need to convince yourself just look at the pump's head curve in the manual. The Intelliflo at full speed has about 95' of maximum head. This means that the pump could lift water 95' straight up in the air. You should be able to prime the panels at 2000 RPM where the maximum head is around 32'.

 

[chem geek]

The issue isn't whether it can prime, but what kind of flow rate could be achieved. The recommended flow rate might be higher than can be achieved, depending on how many panels there are, the length of the runs, the size of piping, etc. In my system, with the IntelliFlo full out at 3450 RPM I get about 57 GPM (see this post for some actual readings). This was for panels on a 1 story house though the highest point being near the top of the pitched roof. It said 31 PSI on the filter, but based on the IntelliFlo pump curves the total head is around 90 feet (39 PSI) and might have been a little higher than that since the power was around 2300 Watts which is higher than on the pump curve (at around 2200 Watts).

If I were to add another 8 feet for a second story, then at 98 feet I would have no flow rate at all if the dynamic head didn't change, but of course it does so in practice I'd probably get around 50 GPM or so. If I had more than 12 panels, then I wouldn't be able to achieve the recommended 4 GPM per panel -- not a disaster, but less than optimum. Now, admittedly, my situation is somewhat unique since I have fairly long pipe runs and have some unusually high flow restrictions, possibly due to the axial check valve after the filter though we don't know for sure. The bottom line is that though I believe that you are right that mixedup's situation will most likely work well, it really does depend on the specifics of the situation so I have some questions for mixedup:

1. How many solar panels do you have on the roof and are they connected in parallel?[/*:m:25t1r7w8]
2. What is the recommended flow rate through each panel (or what brand are they so that we can look up docs)?[/*:m:25t1r7w8]
3. What is the distance between the pump and the base of the house where the pipes go up for solar?[/*:m:25t1r7w8]
4. What approximate distance is it from the side of the house to the end of the furthest solar panel?[/*:m:25t1r7w8]
5. What sand filter do you have? Does it have a manual with a chart of head loss vs. flow rate? Does it have a maximum flow rate?[/*:m:25t1r7w8]

The 2" piping from the skimmer back to the pump is encouraging since that reduces a significant source of suction head for regular circulation.

Given that the existing solar pump is 1.5 HP, the IntelliFlo is very likely to be fine with it even adding to it the extra circulation route (i.e. skimmer and possibly additional returns different than the solar loop). That is, if you were to have any sort of problem with restricted flow rates, it's a problem you would probably already have now and the IntelliFlo should be able to do at least as well. However, it would be good to know the expected flow rate for the panels since if it's very high (due to many panels, for example) then that high flow rate through the sand filter could add significant resistance. Also, we should make sure that the sand filter isn't woefully undersized such that it would not handle the higher flow rates used for solar since they are currently plumbed separately.

The 3 HP rating for the IntelliFlo is a bit misleading since the impeller seems to be designed to wring out maximum efficiency at lower flow rates or lower head at higher flow rates. As an example, the Jandy HHP 1.5 HP pump (2.0 HP up-rated) peaks (see section 11A on page 18 in this manual) at 110 feet of head and can pump 75 GPM at 90 feet of head. The IntelliFlo peaks at 96 feet of head and at 90 feet of head pumps around 58 GPM so substantially lower than the Jandy which in this range is also somewhat more energy efficient than the IntelliFlo.

 

[mas985]

The height of the panels are only relavent during the priming phase for total head. And during the priming phase, the return dynamic head is less than half of what it is after priming is complete. So unless, the installation is very unusal, I believe that both priming and operation should not be an issue.

The pool area is at most 425 sq-ft so even with 100% panel coverage, the flow rate would only need to be about 43 GPM at most. A typical pool with 2" plumbing and solar to a two story roof, would have about 1000' of equivalent length of 2" plumbing which would be about 31' of head loss at 45 GPM and the Intelliflo could easily do that at about 2100 RPM. Even if the equivalent length was twice that value, the Intelliflo could still achieve 45 GPM at 2900 RPM.

 

[mixedup]

thanks again guys

1. How many solar panels do you have on the roof and are they connected in parallel?[/*:m:32tigxcw]
2. What is the recommended flow rate through each panel (or what brand are they so that we can look up docs)?[/*:m:32tigxcw]
3. What is the distance between the pump and the base of the house where the pipes go up for solar?[/*:m:32tigxcw]
4. What approximate distance is it from the side of the house to the end of the furthest solar panel?[/*:m:32tigxcw]
5. What sand filter do you have? Does it have a manual with a chart of head loss vs. flow rate? Does it have a maximum flow rate?[/*:m:32tigxcw]

I'll have to get back to you on some of this. Haven't found the details of the purchase yet as it was years ago now. What I can do is attach some photos of the roof area. Also:
* re solar panels - well they're not really panels - refer photos - not sure if this is now considered an old technology
* distance between the pump and the base of the house - probably about 6m (20 feet). So overall about 6m pump to house with a 2m climb, then 6 meters straight up to top of roof on the 2 storey house[attachment=1:32tigxcw]roof_left.JPG[/attachment:32tigxcw][attachment=0:32tigxcw]roof_right.jpg[/attachment:32tigxcw]

 

[chem geek]

Well, the good news is that the pipe runs are reasonably short. What is truly bizarre are those black mat solar tubes. By having the small tubes go such a long distance, it's as if you had multiple panels hooked together in series, at least for the long length across the roof. The width of all these tubes, which goes along the roof height, looks to be roughly equivalent to 2 or 3 standard 4' panels for a total of 8'-12'. So this nets out to a hybrid parallel/series system.

So from what I can tell, you aren't going to have particularly high flow rates through your panels. They aren't as efficient as panels being all in parallel because in your system the water will heat up a lot by the time it gets towards the return end and such higher temps will tend to throw off heat (depending on air temps). At any rate, it doesn't look to me like there's going to be any problem using the IntelliFlo.

 

[mixedup]

thanks - that's good to know

One last thing I think (I think) - If I did want to have the ability to have the system have 3 modes ("filter on", "solar on", "filter & solar on"), then how could I plumb the pipes and values to allow for this? Such that there was always one path open in case of value failure for example. This would then allow me to (a) run filter after peak hours, as I need to minimise electricity during the day with solar electricity I'm looking at putting in, to maximise electricity back into the grid during the day, and (b) would minimise resistance during the solar pumping I guess, and (c) I can make sure I don't run the filter more than I have to, as with the solar how much it runs is dependant on the temperature. The first point is probably the main one...

 

[mas985]

Those are EPDM panels, the same as what I have. Each small strip is about 6" so one of your dimensions is around 18'. From the picture, the length is about 1/3 longer so I would guess the panels are about 18'x24' or 432 sq-ft which make sense since it is about 100% coverage. So again, you shouldn't need more than about 43 GPM.

Also, you do not want to run unfiltered water through the panels as debris can clog the panels. so I would not have the middle mode of solar only. Besides it would make your plumbing that much more complicated. A standard solar valve will handle the other two modes and should be all you need. It will be installed after the filter and check valve (make sure you have one of these after the filter).

More info on EPDM Panels