Thanks Ben

[It's pooler in AZ]

First off I would like to thank Ben. Way back in 1999 he was there with answers. He is one of my heroes.

I am a big city Arizona guy with a 21,470 in ground white plaster pool. My cartridge filter is a 175 Sq. Ft. Hayward, and my Hayward Super pump is a two stage 1/8 3/4 HP. I clean the pool with a Hayward Pool Vac Ultra, and am one of the few people with a Peregrine Industries Smartemp heat pump heater.

I only add four things to my pool routinely. They are water, chlorine, muriatic acid, and borax. I only use Trichlor and Cal-Hypo to raise my CYA and CA. I keep my CYA between 40 and 50 by deep watering my plants with my pool water and am on a first name basis with my pool store guy due to all the 12.5 % CL I buy in the returnable jugs.
Over the years I have been a good and bad pool owner and have come to the conclusion that the BBB way is not only the healthy way but also the most cost effective way for me. I also find the BBB way to be the simplest way with the most information available.

With that being said, Thank You all for the education you have given me.

I do a few things different than most and I have found them very helpful. During the off season November to April I run my pump at 3/4 HP two hours in the middle of the night and two hours in the afternoon to keep the CL circulating but during the swim season I run the pump in the 1/8 HP mode and never turn it off. Leaving the pump on 24/7 skims the pool constantly, has more daily water flow, reduces low CL stagnant areas due to sun exposure, and costs less than running the pump at 3/4 HP for six hours a day. I also keep a CYA of 40-50 which is lower than most in Arizona. This allows me to take a reading in the late afternoon and if my CL level is approaching three I can add Cl to raise my FC to seven during the night before the sun burn off begins in the morning. Lower CL in the afternoon is better for my plant watering schedule. I may pay more for CL over the season, but I do not have to buy much else and the pool and plants stays healthy.

My worst bad habit is that I add chemicals by the rule of jugs. I let my PH rise to 7.7 then add a jug to lower it to 7.3 maintaining a 7.5 average. This way I do not have to add daily but just every three or four weeks.

Once again thank you all for the vast amount of information, a wonderful gift of the internet and you.

 

[257WbyMag]

Welcome to TFP!

 

[chem geek]

Lower CL in the afternoon is better for my plant watering schedule.

Sounds like a good plan overall. I don't understand the above statement. Are you watering your plants using pool water? Is that why you want a lower FC which you accomplish by having a lower CYA than usual for Arizona? The FC isn't the only thing that would not be beneficial to plants; the borates in the water would not be good either (on a regular basis), though you probably don't use much borax an instead use acid most of the time.

 

[It's pooler in AZ]

With my cartridge filter I have no need to backwash and have trouble getting new water into the pool so I water my plants with pool water via a hose bib on the return to pool line. I usually do this in the afternoon and drain about two inches off the pool in the process. I would eventually like to plumb my pool into my sprinkler system making this easier. My FC level drops quickly during the summer sun and heat so reading it in the afternoon and watering then lets me use the water at its lowest FC level. Good question on the borates. I have a level of 50ish but I have not notices any issues with my plants. Perhaps my desert plants and citrus trees can take more abuse than a more lush landscape.

 

[It's pooler in AZ]

Well, my first day here and I learned something already. It seems that borax is not the best thing to have built up in soil so I will have to stop maintaining it in my pool or stop watering probably.

The following link has some good info about it.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/14 ... n_compost/

Thanks chem geek

 

[chem geek]

Borates inhibit algae growth and algae is a plant. More specific info on the effects on plants is in this link. Boron is an essential micronutrient so you do want some in the soil, but you don't want too much. Most plants did well with trace to 5 mg/L (ppm). 10 ppm led to yellowing of tips of Monterey pine, browning and drying at 20 ppm, and death at 40 ppm. So if you wanted to use some pool water for the plants, you'd need to dilute by watering with tap water as well.

I don't understand what you mean when you say you have trouble getting new water into the pool. When you water the plants using pool water, do you have an auto-fill? So you are using pool water for watering so that you can have some form of regular dilution of the pool water? Since you may not have much rain for overflow, I can understand your wanting to provide regular dilution of the water. Keep in mind that your pool will also be higher in salt level and that can also be an issue for plants, though if you are regularly diluting you may be keeping that somewhat in check.

 

[It's pooler in AZ]

I have an auto fill, and I drain and refill every three years at least. I do not like to waste the water by just draining and refilling although I do that much more than I like. I am trying to use it to water the yard so I do not waste it. Unfortunately I have a desert landscape which uses very little water so I believe I will have to dedicate a part of the yard to high water use plants and not use borax in the pool, or perhaps just a lower amount of borax. Salt is not an issue because of the high than normal water turnover I have with my drains and refills.

I have come to the conclusion that for me it is cheaper and easier to replace the water rather than deal with old water issues.

You are right chem geek, the water is not the best for watering. I just have got to try for the water conservation issue we are facing in the south west.

 

[dmanb2b]

I have an auto fill, and I drain and refill every three years at least.

Welcome to TFP Why do you drain and re-fill every three years? Unless you have high CH or CYA, I struggle to understand that? And even if that is the case, Reverse Osmosis filtration is readily avail in AZ I believe. Not sure how this process conserves water you described above.

 

[Guest]

http://www.calsaway.com

They can save up to 70% of your existing pool water and give you back a much better product then tap.

Don't waste water!

 

[It's pooler in AZ]

It cost me 80 dollars to refill my pool. It solves the high calcium and CYA problems better than any other solution. In AZ water can get very old.

I am very thankful for the person who responds after I speak more than a few sentences that has a question. Thank you chem. Geek.

I need to resolve a few questions that have come up.

If I want to recycle the water in my pool I need to know:

The Salt content rise of the CL usage.
The maximum Boron in the water for acceptable plant watering.
Maximum water usage of my plants.

So the question is how do I become a good water steward and have a healthy pool?
All the answers seem to be available. I just have to take the time and due diligence to make a decision.

To answer the question of why I drain and refill the answer is I have been a lazy BBB follower and have used Triclor in the past.

If I remember right all the questions have been answered in TFP before so all I have to do is the math.

 

[Guest]

It cost me 80 dollars to refill my pool. It solves the high calcium and CYA problems better than any other solution. In AZ water can get very old.

I am very thankful for the person who responds after I speak more than a few sentences that has a question. Thank you chem. Geek.

I need to resolve a few questions that have come up.

If I want to recycle the water in my pool I need to know:

The Salt content rise of the CL usage.
The maximum Boron in the water for acceptable plant watering.
Maximum water usage of my plants.

So the question is how do I become a good water steward and have a healthy pool?
All the answers seem to be available. I just have to take the time and due diligence to make a decision.

To answer the question of why I drain and refill the answer is I have been a lazy BBB follower and have used Triclor in the past.

If I remember right all the questions have been answered in TFP before so all I have to do is the math.

Did you bother to check the link in my prior post?

Save up to 70% of existing pool water
Never expose plaster (as you would when you drain)
Filtered water with less then 200ppm CH (I'm positive your tap water is higher the that)
Continue to use your pool, while being filtered
It actually cost $160.00 to drain and refill your pool (wasting bad water and refilling new)
Renting a sump pump $35.00
No chance of pool floating
Not to mention all the other bad stuff reverse osmosis takes out of your pool water

You might check the link....

 

[It's pooler in AZ]

Thanks, I will call them the next time my water needs help.

 

[dmanb2b]

It cost me 80 dollars to refill my pool. It solves the high calcium and CYA problems better than any other solution. In AZ water can get very old.

CH of up to 1200 can be managed by keeping a close eye on PH not/never drifting above 7.8. Also, why is your CYA rising if you understand the BBB principles, unless you are for some reason raising CYA on purpose?

There are many of us swimming in old water and nothing that usually can not be solved by partial drain/fills, when we get lazy. Even with high ch fill water as you have in AZ, a 100% drain and fill every 3 years seems drastic IMO.

 

[It's pooler in AZ]

I should clarify. In the last 11 years that I have had this pool I have drained and refilled because I was a new owner and did not like swimming with the critters in the water, for a re-plaster job, a overhaul of the plumbing system, and once because I was bad and used tricolor pucks for a season. Because of these drains and refills I have not been able to do the BBB for an extended time. Hopefully I will have that opportunity now.

 

[It's pooler in AZ]

Well, after reading up on Boron and Salt tolerance in plants it seems to be two risky to water long term with the pool water, and a chemical balancing act I do not need . It seems that I have been able to do it for the last few years because most of my plants are high salt tolerant plants and do not need frequent watering. I had hoped to deep water the orange, lemon, and lime trees with the pool but they are the most sensitive.

I do like the Reverse Osmosis idea and will give them a call.

Thanks all

 

[Guest]

It cost me 80 dollars to refill my pool. It solves the high calcium and CYA problems better than any other solution. In AZ water can get very old.

CH of up to 1200 can be managed by keeping a close eye on PH not/never drifting above 7.8. Also, why is your CYA rising if you understand the BBB principles, unless you are for some reason raising CYA on purpose?

There are many of us swimming in old water and nothing that usually can not be solved by partial drain/fills, when we get lazy. Even with high ch fill water as you have in AZ, a 100% drain and fill every 3 years seems drastic IMO.

High CH can be managed, but the downside is not worth it, to me. Until we built our rig, I was doing a drain and refill every two years religiously. I can't stand the white line on my tile or on the spa spillway and waterfall! Now I have no white (calcium build up) on anything, and my hair (what little is left ) doesn't feel like straw and I'm not all "crusty" when I come out of the pool!

Here, and in Arizona and Nevada, among other places in the country, we not only have hard water but also drought conditions. We have to be responsible for this resource, and draining (wasting) and refilling is not the optimum solution. Lake Mead is at its lowest point since 1937, when Hoover Dam was completed and filled for the first time. If it drops another 8 feet between now and next summer, they have put a stop to pool drain and refills. If it drops another 33 feet, the turbines will no longer operate and create electricity. Typical elevation drop between now and summer is 10', so they are facing a real crisis.

I love the BBB method, and preach it religiously. I also preach proper CH levels in a pool, which the National Plaster Council (NPC) suggest to be between 200-400 ppm CH. Managing higher levels, to me, is like running your car twice as long without a full oil change just because you drained out a quart or two and put in fresh It is not worth saving a few bucks on such a large investment (pool or vehicle) by trying to "cheat".

Just my (somewhat educated!) opinion! Folding up soap box and going out in the yard now........

 

[It's pooler in AZ]

So it took me a while to think about this and I have a question. With the all or nothing chemical approach of reverse osmosis is your business model eight hours or nothing or can I select a three hour a year cleaning. I project my CL level to be 500 by spring and I would like to lower to 200. I am ball parking this at five hours for what I need not Eight.

Is the decrease in metals and solids worth the extra hours and cost of adding chemicals to balance the all or nothing approach of reverse osmosis?

 

[Guest]

I'm going to speak for our rig only here, as the guys at Calsaway may have a different program. We base our pricing on the gallons of the pool, and we bring the water into "spec" regardless of what the levels (CH, CYA, TDS) are. It doesn't really do me (or you!) much good to take a 600 ppm CH pool (for example) down to only 400, as you will still be on the high end of the CH spec (using NPC spec of 200-400 ppm for plaster pools). Conversely, if your CYA is 100 (again, for example) I see no reason to stop if I only get that down to 60 (in a non salt pool, and following TFP guidelines of 30-50 ppm CYA). The bottom line is that I want to filter your water (again, based on gallons) to the point that I can give you back 200 ppm CH, and CYA at or lower (I can always bring it back up if I go too low!) than correct.

Filter times can vary, and do, according to levels. Our rig runs at 40,000 gallons per day, so I could run closer to ten hours on your pool if I have to work a little harder to bring your levels where I want them. I wish I could say that I could do any pool in 6 hours, as I would save an awful lot of diesel fuel (we are fully self contained and generate all of our own electricity with the diesel engine)! We could also potentially pull off of your job and onto the next one if we could run less than more, but we have to run for whatever time it takes to do the job properly.

We did a 25,000 gallon pool last Saturday (you can see how we do it in this short video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy0CBSVqyZ8), with 3,400 TDS (non salt pool) and 400 CH. Run time was right at 11 hours, and we ended up at 900 TDS and 200 CH.

Again, speaking only for us, I think that a 3 hour "semi filter" a couple times a year would cost you more overall, and just wouldn't get you down low enough (at least not initially). You could ask about doing a full treatment first, and then seeing if they have a "maintenance program" at a discounted rate if you had them back every 6 months, for example. I could see value, for both you and them, in that arrangement.

Quick Edit!: We do not do work in Arizona This post is for information purposes only, and is not a solicitation for work!

 

[bk406]

First off I would like to thank Ben. Way back in 1999 he was there with answers. He is one of my heroes.

.

FWIW,

This Ben fellow is not on this board

 

[It's pooler in AZ]

Thank you Bruce for the information and time. I will call Calsaway before opening in the spring. Your service is a great idea.