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Thread: How many tests will a K-2005 last for?

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    How many tests will a K-2005 last for?

    I am trying to upend 15 years of the company I work for using only test strips for water testing. To do it successfully, I need to bring numbers.

    I already know that our test strips (AquaCheck Yellows) cost us $10 per bottle, 50 test strips. These will last an average of 40 tests, accounting for the occasional re-test (when they look wacky) and dropped strip. This works out to around 25 cents per test and takes about 60 seconds per pool, including getting/walking/dipping/waiting/reading/recording. These strips test FC, Alk, pH, CYA. CH needs not be checked every day (nor CYA, but whatever), and we've gotten away with not checking TC every day, as the maintenance program rarely leaves a TC reading (over the last 8 months, doing a full-blown water test every 2 weeks, I've only ever had one CC reading, at 0.5 in a hot tub).

    I know that I can get a Taylor K-2005 for $120 (CAD). There is also a K-2006 for $155.
    What I need to know is, how long will the reagents last before needing to be refilled? I suspect the Alkalinity test will be the first to go, being 8-15 drops at each test, assuming all the drop sizes and bottle sizes are the same. But I need more information... can anyone fill me in?
    * Responsible for the operation of 21 semi-private pools and spas at 11 locations, varying from 1,900L to 20,000L spas and from 13,000L to 200,000L pools.

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    Lana537's Avatar
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    Re: How many tests will a K-2005 last for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilton
    I am trying to upend 15 years of the company I work for using only test strips for water testing. To do it successfully, I need to bring numbers.

    I already know that our test strips (AquaCheck Yellows) cost us $10 per bottle, 50 test strips. These will last an average of 40 tests, accounting for the occasional re-test (when they look wacky) and dropped strip. This works out to around 25 cents per test and takes about 60 seconds per pool, including getting/walking/dipping/waiting/reading/recording. These strips test FC, Alk, pH, CYA. CH needs not be checked every day (nor CYA, but whatever), and we've gotten away with not checking TC every day, as the maintenance program rarely leaves a TC reading (over the last 8 months, doing a full-blown water test every 2 weeks, I've only ever had one CC reading, at 0.5 in a hot tub).

    I know that I can get a Taylor K-2005 for $120 (CAD). There is also a K-2006 for $155.
    What I need to know is, how long will the reagents last before needing to be refilled? I suspect the Alkalinity test will be the first to go, being 8-15 drops at each test, assuming all the drop sizes and bottle sizes are the same. But I need more information... can anyone fill me in?
    Hi there!

    Your price for the K-2006 is way high. Where are you located? Go to the Taylor Technologies website. The K-2006 is roughly $80 and the K-2006 (with 2oz reagent bottles) is still less than $155. Oh wait, do I see that you are in Canada. Still, check with Taylor directly. Skip the K-2005; it's not as useful as the K-2006.

    At the risk of sounding pushy, which is not my intention, if you "want to bring numbers" buy yourself a K-2006, learn to use that test kit, and then bring the test result numbers to the powers that be.

    Once you have a sophisticated reliable testing system with Taylor reagents, there is simply no going back to the stone age.

    Good luck~~

    Lana
    23,600 gallon, refurbished 1960's inground concrete, Jandy sand filter w Jandy 2 hp variable speed pump, Pool Pilot Digital SWCG+Chemtrol 2100+CO2 tank; PebbleTec White Pearl with 10% Cobalt Blue Dark Beadcrete by Olympic Pool Plastering, Georgia. Taylor K-2006 Test Kit; Aqua Check Salt test; LaMotte borates test, and Jack's Magic Sequest test kit; SparklyPoolitis level: extremely high.

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    4JawChuck's Avatar
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    Re: How many tests will a K-2005 last for?

    I use the CK2005 kit (I paid $180CDN with taxes for mine), yes the K2006 kit is more accurate and more useful if you have extremely high CYA levels but if +- 1 point of FC is good enough for you and your CYA level is 60 or under I don't feel there is a need for the super accurate numbers that the K2006 kit gets you...but thats my own personal opinion.

    I calculated it out for myself one time and it worked out too $1 CDN per test if you do the CYA, ALK and Calcium Hardness every month or so (they don't change drastically over a short time) and test FC every second day. This test pattern works well for me on an outdoor pool with bather loads of 5-10 per day on 55K litres. I generally maintain FC at 5-9 ppm and everything else gets adjusted once per month if it needs it which is rare, but I don't need to replace a lot of water unless its backwashed etc.

    The real issue here is liability in Canada, if your user name is indicative of your workplace there is a serious issue with proper record keeping and chemicals used to maintain the pool...only your employer can determine his risk aversion and liability exposure. I applaud your desire to save money and make your employers water feature safer and more enjoyable but you could be opening a can of worms, you are likely not a certified pool operator and anything you say can and will be held against you in a court of law.

    I would contact your local water authority to find out the regulations for your area and have the pool maintained by a certified operator using whatever method they are going to use. Sending out samples may be all your allowed to do legally without being under specific direction of a certified operator. This may not be the way it is done now at your facility but I can tell you right now if you stepped in and changed anything and there was a claim made against your employer they would hang you out to dry legally...and possibly be out of a job. Large Corporations are only going to look out for themselves and any savings they may have garnered from your advice and hard work would be forgotten quickly when the chips are down.

    I stay at hotels at least 10 days out of every month and all the hotels I stay at have pools and hot tubs...I have never been into any of them except for the jacuzzi tub in the executive suites I typically rent where the water is dumped after each use. I never see a proper pool maintenance company on the premises and the testing is done by HS students that are the lifeguards typically, the odd time I see a maintenance guy doing the job but its rare.

    I hate to say it but I would forget about trying to do your employer any favors or save them any money with improved testing, let them figure it out at the management level where dollar allocation decisions are made...mention it sure...but anything more than that means either they will make you the "pool guy" and everything will become your fault even though you only have the best intentions.

    Think about what you would be inheriting, their poorly maintained pool and the responsibility of fixing it without any ability to make any purchase decisions or proper training...recipe for disaster.

    Good luck.
    55 Kilolitre in-ground 18'X36' vinyl lined kidney shape, 1HP pump, Jacuzzi 250lb sand filter, RayPak Delta T 200K BTU natural gas heater. New PoolWerks "Blue Diffusion" liner on May 26th-2011
    Avatar is my pool!

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    Re: How many tests will a K-2005 last for?

    The Taylor standard drop size is 24 +/- 1 drops per milliliter. So that's 532 drops in a 0.75 ounce bottle size or 1420 drops in a 2 ounce bottle size. The tests use the following amounts of drops on average:

    pH: 5 drops of R-0004 per test
    FAS-DPD FC (5 ppm FC using 10 ml sample size): 2 level dippers R-0870 and around 10 drops of R-0871 in a 10 ml sample size for 5 ppm
    DPD FC: 5 drops of R-0001, 5 drops of R-0002 and 5 drops of R-0003
    CC: 5 drops of R-0003 and maybe 1 drop of R-0871
    TA (100 ppm TA): 2 drops of R-0007, 5 drops of R-0008 and around 10 drops of R-0009 for a TA near 100 ppm
    CH (300 ppm CH): 20 drops of R-0010, 5 drops of R-0011L and around 30 drops of R-0012 for a CH near 300 ppm
    CYA (K-2005/2006): 7 ml (0.2357 fluid ounces) of R-0013
    CYA (K-1720/TF-100): 15 ml (0.5072 fluid ounces) of R-0013

    Costs vary a lot and though the initial kit costs more, the refills are your true marginal cost. If I use the pricing for larger sizes at Amato Industries I get the following (you can get even larger sizes for lower prices per ounce and note that these prices do not include shipping and are for U.S., not Canada):
    R-0001 ..... 2 ounces for $4.44
    R-0002 ..... 2 ounces for $4.56
    R-0003 ..... 2 ounces for $4.75
    R-0004 ..... 2 ounces for $3.40
    R-0870 ..... 10 grams for $4.80
    R-0871 ..... 2 ounces for $7.36
    R-0003 ..... 2 ounces for $4.75 (same as R-0003 above in DPD test)
    R-0007 ..... 2 ounces for $2.89
    R-0008 ..... 2 ounces for $3.47
    R-0009 ..... 2 ounces for $2.83
    R-0010 ..... 2 ounces for $4.27
    R-0011L ..... 2 ounces for $5.23
    R-0012 ..... 2 ounces for $3.48
    R-0013 ..... 2 ounces for $2.83

    I'll assume you get around 50 tests from 10 grams of R-0870 -- you can often use one heaping scoop effectively instead of two level scoops and you probably get more tests than this so I'm being conservative. Then, with the above pricing the cost per test is:

    U.S. Pricing
    pH: $3.40 / (1420 / 5) = 1.2 cents per test
    FAS-DPD FC (5 ppm FC using 10 ml sample size): $4.80 / 50 + $7.36 / (1420 / 10) = 14.8 cents per test
    DPD FC: $4.44 / (1420 / 5) + $4.56 / (1420 / 5) = 3.2 cents per test
    CC: $4.75 / (1420 / 5) = 1.7 cents per test
    TA (100 ppm TA): $2.89 / (1420 / 2) + $3.47 / (1420 / 5) + $2.83 / (1420 / 10) = 3.6 cents per test
    CH (300 ppm CH): $4.27 / (1420 / 20) + $5.23 / (1420 / 5) + $3.48 / (1420 / 30) = 15.2 cents per test
    CYA (K-2005/2006): $2.83 / (2 / 0.2367) = 33.5 cents per test
    CYA (K-1720/TF-100): $2.83 / (2 / 0.5072) = 71.8 cents per test

    If you are in Canada, then your prices are somewhat more than 3 times higher than the above (I give details below near the end of this post). As Dave notes in the post below, you cannot get Taylor products or reagents shipped from the U.S. and have to go through the sole distributor in Canada which is more expensive at least partly due to the costs associated with the paperwork for and transport of hazardous materials. You can see that it is most economical to get the FC and CYA tests in much larger quantities because the FC is done so frequently and the CYA test uses a lot of reagent. Getting the "E" size (16 fluid ounces) of the FC titrating reagent and the 0.25 pound (113.4 grams) DPD powder and the pint size of CYA solution gives the following

    FAS-DPD FC (5 ppm FC using 10 ml sample size): $25.72 / ((113.4/10) * 50) + $19.41 / (8*1420 / 10) = 6.2 cents per test
    CYA (K-2005/2006): $6.86 / (16 / 0.2367) = 10.1 cents per test
    CYA (K-1720/TF-100): $6.86 / (16 / 0.5072) = 21.7 cents per test

    Another source for discounted reagent refills is TFTestkits. Note that the CYA test used in the TF-100 (and related test kits) as well as in the Taylor K-1720 that can test down to 20 ppm uses 15 ml instead of 7 ml for the CYA test so is a little more than double the cost per test compared to the K-2005 or K-2006.

    For Canada, you can purchase test kits and reagents at Apollo Pools. The price for the K-2005 kit is $127 and for the K-2006 it is $159 (these are "A" size kits). For reagent refills, their pricing is the following (60 ml or 2 ounces are "C" size):

    R-0001 ..... 60 ml for $13.92
    R-0002 ..... 60 ml for $14.27
    R-0003 ..... 60 ml for $14.73
    R-0004 ..... 60 ml for $10.50
    R-0870 ..... 10 grams for $17.92
    R-0871 ..... 60 ml for $25.47
    R-0003 ..... 60 ml for $14.73 (same as R-0003 above in DPD test)
    R-0007 ..... 60 ml for $9.56
    R-0008 ..... 60 ml for $9.56
    R-0009 ..... 60 ml for $9.79
    R-0010 ..... 60 ml for $11.56
    R-0011L ..... 60 ml for $16.56
    R-0012 ..... 60 ml for $10.59
    R-0013 ..... 60 ml for $8.90

    Canada Pricing
    pH: $10.50 / (1420 / 5) = 3.7 cents per test
    FAS-DPD FC (5 ppm FC using 10 ml sample size): $17.92 / 50 + $25.47 / (1420 / 10) = 53.8 cents per test
    DPD FC: $13.92 / (1420 / 5) + $14.27 / (1420 / 5) = 9.9 cents per test
    CC: $14.73 / (1420 / 5) = 5.2 cents per test
    TA (100 ppm TA): $9.56 / (1420 / 2) + $9.56 / (1420 / 5) + $9.79 / (1420 / 10) = 11.6 cents per test
    CH (300 ppm CH): $11.56 / (1420 / 20) + $16.56 / (1420 / 5) + $10.59 / (1420 / 30) = 44.5 cents per test
    CYA (K-2005/2006): $8.90 / (2 / 0.2367) = $1.05 per test
    CYA (K-1720/TF-100): $8.90 / (2 / 0.5072) = $2.26 cents per test

    For the larger sizes for some tests (note that CYA is "F" size with 32 fluid ounces):

    FAS-DPD FC: $79.99 / ((113.4/10) * 50) + $59.99 / (8*1420 / 10) = 19.4 cents per test
    CYA (K-2005/2006): $35.24 / (32 / 0.2367) = 26.1 cents per test
    CYA (K-1720/TF-100): $35.24 / (32 / 0.5072) = 55.9 cents per test
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: How many tests will a K-2005 last for?

    All Taylor products purchased in Canada must be shipped from within Canada through Lowry and Associates or an authorized dealer of theirs within Canada.

    That's why we cannot ship the TF-100 (TFTestkits) into Canada.....we use Taylor reagents in the kit.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: How many tests will a K-2005 last for?

    Thank you all for the information, especially the drop size info and the extensive math done by chem geek.

    For the record, 4JawChuck, I am a CPO and do not work for a hotel (Hilton is my first name), and I also found some parts of your post quite insulting.
    Also for the record, the pools I maintain are Strata-owned pools. The issue here is less about which method is better and more about cost and time. If I can show similar cost and time and better results, I can get my way. I've done it in other portions of my job already. HOW the pool is maintained is up to me as long as costs are kept under control, but things like a test kit I must get approval for (mostly because of the up-front costs, as one will have to be purchased for each of a dozen stratas).

    Pricing for the K2005 here is quite odd. It costs $251 locally at retail; my "frequent customer" price would be $225, but I did beat them into offering it for $200. Which is still much higher than $120+shipping from commercialaquaticsupplies.com here in BC (which is even a couple dollars cheaper than Apollo Pools, and his shipping would be astronomically higher for me). The reagent prices seem to be higher, however - his R-0001-C is $20 vs Apollo's $12. All the reagent prices seem to be about 70% higher than Apollo's...very interesting. But, the shipping from Apollo would probably make up that difference anyway. Shipping across 4,500km can be costly!

    Regardless, here is the same list using prices from commercialaquaticsupplies.com here in BC... (not including shipping which probably won't be too much)

    BC Pricing - C sizes 284
    pH: $15.16 / (1420 / 5) = 5.3 cents per test
    DPD FC: $20.62 / (1420 / 5) + $21.19 / (1420 / 5) = 14.7 cents per test
    CC: $20.62 / (1420 / 5) = 7.2 cents per test
    TA (100 ppm TA): $13.38 / (1420 / 2) + $13.65 / (1420 / 5) + $14.03 / (1420 / 10) = 14.3 cents per test
    CH (300 ppm CH): $16.85 / (1420 / 20) + $24.86 / (1420 / 5) + $15.32 / (1420 / 30) = 20.0 cents per test
    CYA (K-2005/2006): $12.62 / (2 / 0.2367) = $1.49 per test

    Assuming a simple test regimen, I come up with a cost of about $10/month, based on reagent cost (not the test kit up front). So it is marginally more expensive than test strips (at $7.50/month), but the test kit is also checking CH and TC/CC (which the test strips do not, but we don't REALLY need to do). Comparatively, the test strips that check CH/TC would actually cost about $14/month, so it's actually cheaper!

    Now if we factor in the first-run at TEST KIT prices...
    Test Kit = $120
    Reagents equal to amount in test kit (A sizes) at BC prices = $130 -- ain't that funny! So let's use the Test Kit price... which by amount works out about 70% more expensive than the C-size refills. That puts me at $17/month for most of the first year. Ouch!
    * Responsible for the operation of 21 semi-private pools and spas at 11 locations, varying from 1,900L to 20,000L spas and from 13,000L to 200,000L pools.

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    4JawChuck's Avatar
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    Re: How many tests will a K-2005 last for?

    Sorry you feel insulted, my goal was only to inform...my apologies.

    BTW if $17 per month is bad, wait till you see the labor costs to administer the program across the organization (not to mention training)...it will make the kit prices pale in comparison. Have you talked to the people who will be administering your new program to get their input, you may have a person in the organization who has experience and a supplier who can give a better price? Kind of wondering why you don't want/need to test for TC/CC, how is the FC maintained now (I imagine its different at each location)? Have you consulted the BC water board for their recommendations on pool maintenance requirements for public pools?

    Here is their recommendations:

    http://www.bcrpa.bc.ca/about_bcrpa/p...uly22_2004.pdf

    TC/CC is recommended to be tested daily in that document.

    Good luck.
    55 Kilolitre in-ground 18'X36' vinyl lined kidney shape, 1HP pump, Jacuzzi 250lb sand filter, RayPak Delta T 200K BTU natural gas heater. New PoolWerks "Blue Diffusion" liner on May 26th-2011
    Avatar is my pool!

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    Re: How many tests will a K-2005 last for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilton
    But, the shipping from Apollo would probably make up that difference anyway
    Shipping of 4 C-size reagent bottles to Vancouver City Hall, for example, would cost $CDN 14.
    Shipping a K-2006 to the same location would run $CDN 18.

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    Re: How many tests will a K-2005 last for?

    "Across the entire organization"? I think you misunderstand. I am the pool operator; me and me alone. There are multiple locations, but only myself to deal with, who is already trained. This last year I maintained 16 pools and hot tubs spread out across 7 locations; next year may be more. During the winter, there are still 3 pools and 3 commercial-size hot tubs at 3 locations.
    * Responsible for the operation of 21 semi-private pools and spas at 11 locations, varying from 1,900L to 20,000L spas and from 13,000L to 200,000L pools.

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