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Thread: sun coast ultimate metal control

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    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Melbourne FL
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    sun coast ultimate metal control

    Thanks again for all your help last time around.
    The pool is now up to snuff (still stuck with 90 CYA though):
    FC12
    TA 120
    pH 7.5
    CH 450 (well water)
    CYA 90 (ignorance)
    Borate 50
    It is crystal clear and easy to maintain using BBB!

    My question is: when is it necessary to add "suncoast ultimate metal control"?
    I was looking through my records and remembered the pool store wanted me to use a $20 bottle every month.
    I could not find any info using 'search', but really didn't know what I was looking for.
    11000ish gallons, cartridge filter, IG (in ground), plaster, 1.5 hp pump, screen enclosure

  2. Back To Top    #2
    Mod Squad zea3's Avatar
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    Re: sun coast ultimate metal control

    Do not arbitrarily add metal control. Have the water tested for metals first, then add the correct sequestrant as needed. Did your fill water test high for metals when the pool was built, or did they just assume you would have metals since you are on a well?

    Since you do have high CH your TA could stand to come down a bit, perhaps to the 70-90 range. That will help prevent scale formation. You may also want to keep you pH a little lower, around 7.2, also to help inhibit scale.

    I googled suncoast ultimate metal control and it says it is used to remove and prevent copper staining and is recommended for new pools to prevent scale and stain build up. If you are using it to prevent scale, then you don't need it. Keeping your TA and pH lower will also prevent scale.
    TFP Moderator
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    Vogue 21' round AG, Pentair 1 hp 2 speed pump, 36 sq ft DE filter, Hayward S180T 150# sand filter, Houston, Texas
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    Re: sun coast ultimate metal control

    Suncoat products are a private label brand manufactured by Blue Wave.

    The product is a sequesterant for metals and also slows calcium scaling.
    It may have been initially recommended by your pool store for a newly plastered pool.
    Unless you have a high concentration of metal in your fill water, then the product may no longer be necessary.

    Here are a couple of pool school articles dealing with each problem.

    pool-school/metal%20stains

    pool-school/calcium_scaling

    Stay away from Calcium hypochlorite as your chlorine source as this would increase your calcium level and no more Tri-chlor or Di-chlor tablets, sticks or powders as they will increase your already high CYA concentration.

    pool-school/types_chlorine_pool

    Don't worry so much about that CH of 450.
    "CH levels up to perhaps 1,200 can be managed by reducing your TA and carefully keeping your PH relatively low" -pool school

    If you are in a climate where you don't need to close your pool, you may be able to solve most of your pool issues before it is time to swim next season. Maintain your chlorine levels at the correct level relative to your CYA concentration.
    pool-school/chlorine_cya_chart_shock
    Be patient and carefully manage your PH and TA throughout the Winter just as Zea3 has outlined. If you are in an area with frequent Winter rains, hopefully the CYA and the CH will decrease as the rain dilutes the pool water. With any luck, you could have a CYA of 50 and a CH of 300 by Spring

    If you are in an arid climate then you can use your well water to dilute the CYA level and continue to maintain low PH and TA levels to keep the calcium in check. Reverse Osmosis is another solution.
    poolschoolgrad

    20x40 free-form IG vinyl, 1hp Hayward superpump, Hayward pro grid DE filter, Raypak heatpump, Goldline Aquarite SWCG, Polaris 280 with booster, and tested using a Taylor K2006.

  4. Back To Top    #4

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    Re: sun coast ultimate metal control

    Quote Originally Posted by zea3
    Have the water tested for metals first, then add the correct sequestrant as needed. Did your fill water test high for metals when the pool was built, or did they just assume you would have metals since you are on a well?
    I don't know.
    What is the best way to 'independently' test for metals?

    Quote Originally Posted by zea3
    Since you do have high CH your TA could stand to come down a bit, perhaps to the 70-90 range. That will help prevent scale formation. You may also want to keep you pH a little lower, around 7.2, also to help inhibit scale.
    Does this hold for high CYA?
    I remember reading somewhere that your target TA should be +0.3CYA

    Quote Originally Posted by zea3
    I googled suncoast ultimate metal control and it says it is used to remove and prevent copper staining and is recommended for new pools to prevent scale and stain build up. If you are using it to prevent scale, then you don't need it. Keeping your TA and pH lower will also prevent scale.
    Thank you for the insight. It must be I have 'metals' since I was told I need it every month. I will still try to test independantly however.
    I have not used the metal control in 4 months or so and have no staining.
    11000ish gallons, cartridge filter, IG (in ground), plaster, 1.5 hp pump, screen enclosure

  5. Back To Top    #5

    Join Date
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    Re: sun coast ultimate metal control

    Quote Originally Posted by Poolschoolgrad
    Suncoat products are a private label brand manufactured by Blue Wave.

    The product is a sequesterant for metals and also slows calcium scaling.
    It may have been initially recommended by your pool store for a newly plastered pool.
    Unless you have a high concentration of metal in your fill water, then the product may no longer be necessary.

    Here are a couple of pool school articles dealing with each problem.

    pool-school/metal%20stains
    this says they are phosphonic acid based. is this the same stuff as Ospho?


    Quote Originally Posted by Poolschoolgrad
    Stay away from Calcium hypochlorite as your chlorine source as this would increase your calcium level and no more Tri-chlor or Di-chlor tablets, sticks or powders as they will increase your already high CYA concentration.
    pool-school/types_chlorine_pool
    Currently, I don't use anything but bleach any more since I found out about CYA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poolschoolgrad
    Don't worry so much about that CH of 450.
    "CH levels up to perhaps 1,200 can be managed by reducing your TA and carefully keeping your PH relatively low" -pool school
    Are there any rules of thumb for the correction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poolschoolgrad
    If you are in a climate where you don't need to close your pool, you may be able to solve most of your pool issues before it is time to swim next season.
    Sorry, I just updated my profile... Melbourne FL

    Quote Originally Posted by Poolschoolgrad
    Maintain your chlorine levels at the correct level relative to your CYA concentration.
    pool-school/chlorine_cya_chart_shock
    I have been using the pool calculator for target chlorine levels it says 7-12, which one is right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poolschoolgrad
    Be patient and carefully manage your PH and TA throughout the Winter just as Zea3 has outlined. If you are in an area with frequent Winter rains, hopefully the CYA and the CH will decrease as the rain dilutes the pool water. With any luck, you could have a CYA of 50 and a CH of 300 by Spring
    I am hoping my CYA magically goes away. Its not really feasible for me to drain and refill with my well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poolschoolgrad
    If you are in an arid climate then you can use your well water to dilute the CYA level and continue to maintain low PH and TA levels to keep the calcium in check. Reverse Osmosis is another solution.
    I looked into the mobile RO trucks but could not find any in my area.

    So, are these what my target levels should be?
    FC 7-12
    pH 7.2
    TA 80
    CYA 90 (cant change)
    CH 450 (cant change)
    borate 50
    11000ish gallons, cartridge filter, IG (in ground), plaster, 1.5 hp pump, screen enclosure

  6. Back To Top    #6

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    Re: sun coast ultimate metal control

    Hi

    this says they are phosphonic acid based. is this the same stuff as Ospho?
    Ospho is mostly phosphoric acid. You probably use this product before you apply primer to a rusted area to be painted.
    The sequesterants contain Phosphonic acid. These HEDP products help keep the metals locked up (sequestered) in your water and help prevent staining. You won't need this product unless you have an issue with staining.
    Taylor makes a test kit for Iron
    http://tftestkits.net/K-1716-Taylor-Iron-Test-p30.html

    I have been using the pool calculator for target chlorine levels it says 7-12, which one is right?
    Your chlorine concentration of 12 is ok given your CYA is at 90 for warm water temperatures found in most of FL during the Summer. As the water temperatures get cooler, you can use a target of 10 and not see any issues with algae. You will use much less chlorine per month during the "Winter" than you used during the Summer. Continue to test regularly.

    Your target levels seem appropriate for your current water balance needs. Keep in mind, these will change as your CH and CYA levels decrease.

    CH and CYA won't go away by magic, but if your area receives it's normal rainfall, it should slowly decrease.
    Are there any rules of thumb for the correction (to CH and CYA)?
    By using the pool calculator you can calculate that you only need to replace around 1/4 of your pool water with fresh water in order to lower your CH by 100 ppm and replace half of the water to get that CYA down to an acceptable level.
    Central Florida gets at least 40-50 inches of rain per year, right? So, within the next 4-6 months you should be well on your way to a trouble free pool
    poolschoolgrad

    20x40 free-form IG vinyl, 1hp Hayward superpump, Hayward pro grid DE filter, Raypak heatpump, Goldline Aquarite SWCG, Polaris 280 with booster, and tested using a Taylor K2006.

  7. Back To Top    #7
    Mod Squad zea3's Avatar
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    Re: sun coast ultimate metal control

    Hi again, to cut down on confusion I will type my answers in red.
    Quote Originally Posted by d1mbu1b
    Quote Originally Posted by zea3
    Have the water tested for metals first, then add the correct sequestrant as needed. Did your fill water test high for metals when the pool was built, or did they just assume you would have metals since you are on a well?
    I don't know.
    What is the best way to 'independently' test for metals?
    This is one instance where I will tell someone to take a sample to a pool store. Call first and ask if they can test for metals. Take a pool sample and a source (well water) sample. The reason for the two samples is to identify if some of the past chemicals used contain copper. There are metal tests you can buy, but unless you know you have metals in your source water, buying those tests would be an unnecessary expense. If your source water tests positive, they will identify the metal and you can ask here to find the best product to control it.
    Quote Originally Posted by zea3
    Since you do have high CH your TA could stand to come down a bit, perhaps to the 70-90 range. That will help prevent scale formation. You may also want to keep you pH a little lower, around 7.2, also to help inhibit scale.
    Does this hold for high CYA?
    I remember reading somewhere that your target TA should be +0.3CYA

    Unfortunately no. CYA can only be reduced by reverse osmosis or drain and refill. I don't remember seeing anything about the TA/CYA ratio. Since draining and refilling is not an option for you, you can manage your pool with a CYA of 90. I did for about a year until I was able to get it down by taking advantage of some heavy rains. Instead of waiting to drain off excess water after a rain, drain off a couple of inches when heavy rains are expected but leave enough water for the pump to operate properly.
    Quote Originally Posted by zea3
    I googled suncoast ultimate metal control and it says it is used to remove and prevent copper staining and is recommended for new pools to prevent scale and stain build up. If you are using it to prevent scale, then you don't need it. Keeping your TA and pH lower will also prevent scale.
    Thank you for the insight. It must be I have 'metals' since I was told I need it every month. I will still try to test independantly however.
    I have not used the metal control in 4 months or so and have no staining.
    It is good that you havn't seen any staining. Sometimes people assume that you will have a high iron content in the water since you are on a well. Not all wells have a high iron content, however, so you may be lucky!
    TFP Moderator
    Helpful links: TF Test Kits,TFP Pool School, PoolMath
    Vogue 21' round AG, Pentair 1 hp 2 speed pump, 36 sq ft DE filter, Hayward S180T 150# sand filter, Houston, Texas
    Love TFP? Become a
    TFP Supporter!

  8. Back To Top    #8

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    Re: sun coast ultimate metal control

    I remember reading somewhere that your target TA should be +0.3CYA
    ATA or CTA - Adjusted or Corrected Total Alkalinity

    An adjustment is sometimes made to the measured TA, subtracting out the cyanurate alkalinity, to more closely approximate the alkalinity as CaCO3. This number is only used when calculating LSI. Here at TFP you should always use the TA result directly from the test. -- From pool school ABC's of water chemistry
    poolschoolgrad

    20x40 free-form IG vinyl, 1hp Hayward superpump, Hayward pro grid DE filter, Raypak heatpump, Goldline Aquarite SWCG, Polaris 280 with booster, and tested using a Taylor K2006.

  9. Back To Top    #9

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    Re: sun coast ultimate metal control

    Thank you everybody.
    11000ish gallons, cartridge filter, IG (in ground), plaster, 1.5 hp pump, screen enclosure

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