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Thread: High PH

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    High PH

    A few questions about PH....
    1. Is there a product that will help to stabilize the PH over the winter months?
    2. Is there a safe way to add MA during the winter without having to start the system back up?
    3. My quartz finish is 1 year old....how long will the PH continue to keep rising? Buying MA is starting to become a pain! I'm using about 1.5 qts. every week! And my TA is at 60.

    Thanks for your help!
    28,000 IG Free Form Gunite with quartz finish
    Pentair Quad DE filter, Intelliflo VS+SVRS
    Polaris 280, Sta-Rite 400K Heater-Propane

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: High PH

    You caould add Borates but I'm not sure you'll need anything. Once it gets colder the pH will slow down along with everything else.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: High PH

    here is my plan; go towards the bottom of this page:
    raised-stains-stained-bumps-t21024-20.html
    19,800 gallons (closed/winter 18,654 gal); plaster; 18x34 Ft kidney bean shape, Depth 3Ft-5Ft. Built 1992
    Pentair Whisper Flow Pump 1HP. Winter safety cover w anchors.
    Sand filter, Pentair Sand Dollar Top Mount Model SD80; Effective Filtration Area 3.5SF
    - FlowRate 75GPM, 8Hr 36,000, 10Hr 45,000, 12Hr 54,000; Pressure Weight 50PSI
    BBB (Hayward Chlorinator when leave town). Polaris 360 cleaner.

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    Guest

    Re: High PH

    I add 16-20 oz of MA to my pool every other day. That's just what it takes to keep pH where I want it, and my pool is going on 9 years old now. Do you have quite a lot of aeration?

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    Re: High PH

    Quote Originally Posted by simicrintz
    I add 16-20 oz of MA to my pool every other day. That's just what it takes to keep pH where I want it, and my pool is going on 9 years old now. Do you have quite a lot of aeration?
    So it sounds like I will be dealing with a lot of MA for a long time....
    I have no aeration in the pool...other than kids jumping and splashing...

    I'm going with Johnny B's plan for the winter. Hope it works!
    28,000 IG Free Form Gunite with quartz finish
    Pentair Quad DE filter, Intelliflo VS+SVRS
    Polaris 280, Sta-Rite 400K Heater-Propane

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    Re: High PH

    Mamasproject, please ignore my post unless someone else aknowledge it and the suggestion contained within.

    But as water becomes colder, it's saturation index drops. To counterbalance and correct any damage caused by the chlorine tablets, we (our pool store) add sodium bicarbonate in a floater (marketed Artic Defense for the occasion) to the pool as it is closed. This slowly rises both pH and alcalinity (as it slowly dissolve inside the pool water), which raise the saturation index.

    (Ok, the common sales speech says it is used to counterbalance all the acidic rain we get... so I must at least admit my explanation is just as much speculation, hence the disclaimer.)

    Our pool store do this systematicaly, without testing. Thus many pool are winterized with an higher PH than normally required and no catastrophe occurs. Thus I question the need to lower your pH. Also, the whole set of numbers would help.
    Pool: None, and All.
    ''What's really interesting is finding some way to explain some technical concepts with simple terms so that everyone might understand, to vulgarize.'' CaOCL2

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    Guest

    Re: High PH

    I guess it just depends on what you consider a lot MA is pretty cheap, and it takes less than a minute for me to test and add. To have water that looks as nice as I am able to keep mine for this little amount of effort seems to be little inconvenience to me!

    Hang in there

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    Re: High PH

    When water temperature drops, the pH should rise on its own independent of any outgassing or other factors that may be causing that to occur. So the saturation index doesn't drop by as much as one would normally think. In my own pool, when the water goes from 85ºF to 55ºF the pH should rise from 7.5 to 7.7 which pretty much keeps the saturation index fairly constant -- dropping only 0.07 units. Of course, if one measures their pool water and finds the pH not rising, then the approaches of raising TA and/or pH can be done to compensate. Just be careful about not letting the pH get too high because if there are metal ions in the water they can stain, especially as you get closer to and higher than 8.0.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: High PH

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkside of the Pool

    Our pool store do this systematicaly, without testing. Thus many pool are winterized with an higher PH than normally required and no catastrophe occurs. Thus I question the need to lower your pH. Also, the whole set of numbers would help.
    I would like to keep my PH under control this winter....
    1. After last year's winter upon opening PH tested well above 8...as high as the test would go.
    2. My pool was covered in a sand like substance...don't know what it was and nobody could tell me without just guessing. My guess is that it was something because the PH was so high.
    3. I must add MA at least every 5 days to keep it in the 7.4-7.6 range. My pool will be closed for 6 months!
    4. I do not want to deal with scaling on a new pool!
    5. I'm just asking for some direction.
    My test results are... (tested yesterday)
    PH...8.0 (added MA of course~had to buy more)
    FC...4.0
    TC...4.0
    CC...0
    TA...60
    CH..450 (last time I checked it...ran out of testing agent)
    Salt...1850
    CYA...35
    Do my numbers look okay or is there something I'm missing? This has been my first summer owning a pool and following the BBB method and have not had one problem. The water has looked beautiful...I'm just concerned about the climbing PH over the 6 month winter.
    28,000 IG Free Form Gunite with quartz finish
    Pentair Quad DE filter, Intelliflo VS+SVRS
    Polaris 280, Sta-Rite 400K Heater-Propane

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: High PH

    If you really think it could be an issue you could buy a small sump or a big fountain pump and use it to circulate the water during the winter and then you could add acid whenever you needed to.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: High PH

    Although it WILL be a guess, with a PH steadily on the rise and a CH over 400, that sand-like substance does sound like scaling.

    Your test result are okay, but:

    Salt at 1800... are you using a SWCG or is it a by-product of bleach? If you have a SWCG, it might be a good idea to turn it off. It will slow (or stop) the rise of PH. Do it if water become cold enough to prohibit algae growth, of course. Or you'll have to rely on another source of chlorine (note that SWCG don't work so well bellow something like 65 farenheits anyways, keeps asking you to add salt because cold water doesn't conduct electricity as well or something).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    If you really think it could be an issue you could buy a small sump or a big fountain pump and use it to circulate the water during the winter and then you could add acid whenever you needed to.
    Although even then it is better to have water circulating, another option might be dry acid (sodium bisulfate, also known as PH Decreaser). It will come up more costly to use than MA, and you might have to buy it in a pool store...

    PS: Btw, I might be mistaken on the truth behind SWCG demanding salt to be added below 65 or so farenheit. Correct me if so.
    PS: If one plans on closing the pool and don't want / can't have the pump circulating during that time I doubt he/she would have a SWCG running... worth mentionning though.
    Pool: None, and All.
    ''What's really interesting is finding some way to explain some technical concepts with simple terms so that everyone might understand, to vulgarize.'' CaOCL2

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    Cherie's Avatar
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    Re: High PH

    Unless you've determined that the sand-like substance was mustard algae, then it could be that a lot pollen landed in the pool at the end of the season before you covered it - I'm assuming you put a winter cover on it. If not, then the suspicion of heavy pollen seems more likely, than a high pH. We try to run the cleaner once more at the end of the season to make sure we've cleaned out the pollen, then put the solar cover on for the winter. But we do not close our pool for the winter. We run our pump 24/7 year round, with a few exceptions.
    32x16 buried Doughboy, 4' shallow - 7' deep
    Pentair Dynamo 1 hp, 2-speed - Pentair 150# SD40 w/zeolite (75#)
    One skimmer/two returns/Aquabot Turbo T2

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    Re: High PH

    [/quote]
    Salt at 1800... are you using a SWCG or is it a by-product of bleach? If you have a SWCG, it might be a good idea to turn it off. It will slow (or stop) the rise of PH. Do it if water become cold enough to prohibit algae growth, of course. Or you'll have to rely on another source of chlorine (note that SWCG don't work so well bellow something like 65 farenheits anyways, keeps asking you to add salt because cold water doesn't conduct electricity as well or something).[/quote]

    No SWCG...half is from the LC the other half was added by bag. It was added to enhance the "feel" of the water.[/color]
    [/quote]Although even then it is better to have water circulating, another option might be dry acid (sodium bisulfate, also known as PH Decreaser). It will come up more costly to use than MA, and you might have to buy it at a pool store..[/quote]

    Is it easier to add the dry acid without water circulation? Won't the dry acid just sink to the bottom of the pool? I do have some that the builder included in our pool package.[/color]
    28,000 IG Free Form Gunite with quartz finish
    Pentair Quad DE filter, Intelliflo VS+SVRS
    Polaris 280, Sta-Rite 400K Heater-Propane

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    Re: High PH

    Quote Originally Posted by Cherie
    Unless you've determined that the sand-like substance was mustard algae, then it could be that a lot pollen landed in the pool at the end of the season before you covered it - I'm assuming you put a winter cover on it. If not, then the suspicion of heavy pollen seems more likely, than a high pH. We try to run the cleaner once more at the end of the season to make sure we've cleaned out the pollen, then put the solar cover on for the winter. But we do not close our pool for the winter. We run our pump 24/7 year round, with a few exceptions.
    Although that sounds like a good theory I really believe the sand like substance had something to do with scaling. It was all over the pool...on the walls and floors...it had to be rubbed off. The Polaris did a great job of getting most of it. After the sand dried out it turned to a chalkly like substance...almost like chalk when you rubbed it between your fingers. Thanks for the reply though!
    28,000 IG Free Form Gunite with quartz finish
    Pentair Quad DE filter, Intelliflo VS+SVRS
    Polaris 280, Sta-Rite 400K Heater-Propane

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    Guest

    Re: High PH

    I would not use the dry acid. If it is allowed to sink and sit on the bottom it will etch where it sits (and expose the quartz more, making it rough in that area). It is also not recommended to add chemicals with the system off.

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    Re: High PH

    Quote Originally Posted by simicrintz
    It is also not recommended to add chemicals with the system off.
    I concur. However, if one dilute the dry acid beforehand, I doubt any damage will result. Never allow a chemical to sit on the bottom. With very few exceptions, no matter the chemical you add, it's better off with the system running.

    On another topic, next time the dust reappear (if it does), try collecting 3 samples. One you won't touch, for comparison purposes. One you add MA to (if it react, it was scalling). One where you directly add bleach. If it clear up, it's organic.
    Pool: None, and All.
    ''What's really interesting is finding some way to explain some technical concepts with simple terms so that everyone might understand, to vulgarize.'' CaOCL2

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: High PH

    Actually if you're going to pour something into the pool, muriatic acid would be safer than dry acid because it will dilute more readily. I'm not advocating that you pour it into the pool without circulation just a comment about the soluability of the liquid vs. granules.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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