What constitutes a VERY GOOD Paver?? (Concrete-Stone work)

[bk406]

Thats an awful lot of plumbing for that size of pool. 1 skimmer, 1 side wall suction, and 3 returns are fine for that pool.

Overall, that sounds like a pretty good deal. If it were me, and I needed to come in at 25k, here is what i would do.

Dump the solar rings, and whatever that liquid solar cover thing is. Both of those do not work. Your better off getting a real solar cover for $100 or so later. Thats $500.

Next, IMO, the pump and filter should be part of the price for the pool. IOW, those should be included in the $16,500. That saves you $1450.
You have now knocked off $2000.
So $27,350-2000= $25,350

Tell him you like the package, but the $500 for the solar rings and liquid cover is not something you want. You also think the pump and filter should be included in the 16,500 for the pool. So..you are willing to offer $25,000 for that package.

If he doesnt go for it, tell him you think you only need one side wall suction, and no bottom mains, and one skimmer. I'm not sure that will knock much off, but give it a shot. Your almost at 25k for a pretty decent package, so a little go around may do the trick.

 

[fudgebar]

To be a bit more specific, I have tried to itemize my pool

Vinyl-Lined Rectangular Swimming Pool: 14’ X 28’

Commercial Construction: 14-Gauge Steel Walls, Gibralter Braces, 50% Extra Zinc Rust-Proofing,
4000 P.S.I. Concrete Footing, Vermiculite-Cement-Fiber-Mesh Floor, 27 Mil Commercial Liner.

Platinum Package: Hayward 500 Watt Underwater Light, Polaris Pool Cleaner, Jet-Net Skimmer,
Poolguard Safety Alarm. Super-Efficient Plumbing System with 2 Skimmers, 2 Wall Suctions, 3 Returns, 2 Main Drains 16,500

• Hayward TriStar 2 Speed Energy Efficient High Performance 1.5 HP pump 700
• Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter w/Top Mount Valve - 24-inch and 2” valve 750
• Hayward Aqua Rite Pro Salt Generator 1300
• Ruud 117BTU digital therm Heat Pump 3700



BK, thanks for your suggestions!...that was great, However there is a bit of confusion here. The above is not a quote, the above is what I itemized to be a fair value starting negotiating point. I am trying to negotiate that fair value price down to 25k, but most of the quotes I recieved dont even want to consider the above fair value quote as a starting point!

Im getting between 31,000 and 33,000 as quotes and they are laughing at my fair value quote above, no less even giving me the opportunity to negotiate lower to 25K.

So my conclusion is this,.....I think I need to wait it out until the slow season and see how they respond... I think there's room here.


14’ steel under liner shallow entry steps 1200
Solar Sun Rings & Liquid Solar Blanket 500
Loop Lock Mesh Locking Safety Cover installed 1100


Permit Preparation
Pool Layout and Excavation
Complete electrical installation include 90amp sub panel, electrical, bonding, dual timer
2” Rigid PVC plumbing
Q.P. Backfill and Grading within 4 Feet from Water Line
Dirt Transportation and Removal
Temporary Safety Construction Fencing
Deluxe Maintenance Test Kit with Safety Rope and Floats
Pool Start-Up and Orientation

Total Price: 27,350

 

[bk406]

Ok, sorry, I thought that was a quote since you didnt say that you came up with those numbers. I still think 30-32k is about right. Where did you get your numbers?

Even at you number of 27,350, the difference is about $5000. That's what the builders need to stay in business. Sorry, but I'm not sure i can help you much more. I've told you that what you have been quoted is a good price. You probably should wait untill you have a bit more money is all i can tell you.

 

[fudgebar]

BK, you've been more then helpful and I thank you for that....the 27,350 number I came up with is all of the itemized equiptment at retail pricing then I added approx 20% on top of that for profit margin.....I believe that is very fair value since I think the base Pool install of 16,500 that I listed which doesnt include any of the equipment since it was itemized separately) is a very generous amount.

I am actually going to run a very interesting experiment for myself, as well as all you good people looking to buy a pool in the future.

Im going to completely drop interest in my pool efforts for the remainder of the summer and focus my energies on my fun hobbies of which I have been neglecting. I will not reach out to any of the pool builders I've been in contact with since I have been getting quotes (about 8-10 in total) I am going to wait it out thru the fall and into the winter and observe the situation. My gut tells me that if there is room to negotiate, they'll call back...and if there's lots of room to negotiate, they'll call back quite frequently!

Folks, to keep things in prespective, we have to consider something that is a fact that many builders are sweeping under the table or flat out lying about. We are in an economic depression. An in ground pool is a luxury item, not a necessity. So any pool builder that tells you that it hasnt slowed down their business is either lying to you or is extremely slow at keeping up with their work since 2007!

Builders need to be willing to cut their profits and take less for the same quality work....we all have in one shape or another in the last few years. If they're not willing to do this, they will lose even more money. The fall is coming.

I will keep you posted with my experiment and I will not stop until I get to that price that I think is fair for both myself and the builder......am I crazy to think this way?

 

[bk406]

Builders have actually cut the price down as it is. Few years ago that pool your wanting would be 40k. Fact is, liability insurance, workmans comp, labor, taxes, and everything it takes to stay in business has not gone down, it's gone up. The guy who built my pool is actually building the same number now, more or less, as he was back in 2005-2006. He's a little cheaper, but not much. As much as we would like to think the economy will dicate cheaper prices for this type of thing, it's just not reality.
Good luck in finding what you want.

 

[fudgebar]

Thanks BK....my strategy with purchasing, negotiating and sales has always been very simple, however Donald Trump may scoff at it....

Every salesman has a breakpoint (the exact line in which all negotiating ceases and the salesman chooses to walk away)

My goal in every negotiable sale is to find out where that 'true' breakpoint is and get there in as little time as possible then pull back slightly to close the transaction

The exciting part is, every salesman, has a different breakpoint even on the same exact item and its amazing how far you can be from it until you become real adept at getting closer to the inner layers of it. The average salesman will let you get halfway there with little resistance.....the best ones will make you feel as if you dipped in the red 10% in.

 

[bk406]

Good luck with all that. :-D

 

[fudgebar]

btw, are you happy with your sand filter as opposed to a DE or even cartridge based filter....they seem to be all pretty closely priced. I want something simple

 

[fudgebar]

Folks, it didnt even take as long as I thought it would.....Here's the update proposal from a reputable pool builder, please let me know what you think and offer some feedback...thanks


Vinyl-Lined Rectangular Swimming Pool: 14’ X 28’

Commercial Construction: 14-Gauge Steel Walls, Gibralter Braces, 50% Extra Zinc Rust-Proofing,
4000 P.S.I. Concrete Footing, Vermiculite-Cement-Fiber-Mesh Floor, 27 Mil Commercial Liner.

Platinum Package: Hayward 500 Watt Underwater Light, Polaris Pool Cleaner, Jet-Net Skimmer,
Poolguard Safety Alarm. 14’ steel steps under liner. Super-Efficient Plumbing System with
2 Hayward wide mouth Skimmers, 2 Wall Suctions, 4 Returns, 2 Main Drain 16,500

• Hayward TriStar 2 Speed Energy Efficient High Performance 1.5 HP pump 700
• Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter w/Top Mount Valve - 24-inch and 2” valve 750
• Hayward Aqua Rite Pro Salt Generator 1300
• Ruud 117BTU digital therm Heat Pump or Hayward Pro 117btu 3700


Solar Sun Rings & Liquid Solar Blanket 500
Loop Lock Mesh Locking Safety Cover installed during paving phase 1100
Cement Walkway 3’ Around Pool, with Cantilevered Edge upgrade option

Permit Preparation (Customer Pays Town Fees)
Pool Layout and Excavation
Complete electrical installation include 90amp sub panel, electrical, bonding, single timer 1450
2” Rigid PVC plumbing
Q.P. Backfill and Grading within 4 Feet from Water Line
Dirt Transportation and Removal included
Temporary Safety Construction Fencing
Deluxe Maintenance Test Kit with Safety Rope and Floats
Pool Start-Up and Orientation
28-Day Completion Guarantee

Total Price: 26,000


Please provide some feedback...should I hold out some more (its only Aug 10 :lol: ) or sign on the dotted line?

thanks

 

[Melt In The Sun]

Still got the solar sun rings in there? That's a waste of 500 bucks.

Why 2 wall suctions?

 

[dmanb2b]

Charging $500 for Solar sun rings and a solar blanket is not reputable That said you should be able to get them down to $25K...also find out how much your permit fees will be and make sure they guarantee you will pass inspection.

 

[fudgebar]

LOL....Dang it, Im gonna make sure I get those solar rings! LOL

I have no idea....hey for that price I guess its better than 1 suction, right?

Otherwise, do you think everything is kosher here or could there be an opportunity of fishiness that could creep in. Do I need anything more specific from the builder in regards to details for anything to make sure he doesnt have areas to recoup on his discounts?

 

[fudgebar]

dman, I was under the impression that I could file for all my permit fees....couldnt I just contact my zoning office and ask them what fees are involved?....or is not how that works?

My town does not require a topographical survey....are there any other things involved?

 

[4JawChuck]

All I can say is everytime I have...or a person I know...or a company I worked for has gone with the lowest bidder, it was always a nightmare and usually involved a lawyer. Ever watch Holmes on Homes? Lots of low bidder contract work being fixed on that show.

 

[fudgebar]

I can understand this....However, I have researched the company on the internet, they have 2 showroom locations in NJ. They also are BBB Accredited with an A rating. Any issues over the last 36months have all been resolved.

Im not sure if there is anything else I can do to validate their professionalism. Im going to spot contact their referrals and visit their showroom.

 

[bk406]

Ask for references and go look at some of their pools.

 

[fudgebar]

BK, thanks again for assisting...thats a good idea. Going to the customers pools would probably make me feel most comfortable

 

[fudgebar]

BK, or anyone else, a quick question..........if you look above, my 26K quote does NOT include any patio. Usually most pool quotes come with a 3ft concrete patio around the pool. Am I shooting myself in the foot by leaving the entire patio out of the contract and just having them build the pool as described above? Is this still a very good price? and more importantly, Is the pool installation still complete and secure with no patio?......do they just use QP to backfill the bracing of the pool and what does it look like afterward?....is it incomplete and unfinished looking?

thanks

 

[dmanb2b]

dman, I was under the impression that I could file for all my permit fees....couldnt I just contact my zoning office and ask them what fees are involved?....or is not how that works?

My town does not require a topographical survey....are there any other things involved?

Permit costs can range from $0-$1,000 and then you will also need to schedule inspections and hope you pass inspection. You should make sure the is a clause in the contract that the builder is responsible to ensure you pass inspection or said a different way, that the pool is built code compliant as it may apply in your town.

 

[fudgebar]

what about the 3ft of patio concrete?....what value is that removed from my quote, and why do most pool builders include this in their complete packages?....does it have anything to do with reinforcing the backill and footing of the pool or am I a bit confused? I am requesting backfill of QP in the quote which they are including but if I am not getting the 3ft of patio concrete, what is it going to look like and is this a problem?


thanks