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Thread: Sequestrant HEDP Photodegradation, Iron Copper Scale Removal

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    Sequestrant HEDP Photodegradation, Iron Copper Scale Removal

    Have been using the sequestrant/chelator Jack's Magic "The Magenta Stuff", and the usage to maintain a level of 20 ppm has been very high. This after doing the Jacks "Iron and Scale Treatment” now completed, during that treatment it used significant amounts of "The Magenta Stuff". It worked very well chelating significant amounts of metals out to the filter, no iron is visibly present.

    I initially thought that I was actually using less but I went back to my notes and noticed that I actually put in 40 oz after refilling the pool and not 20oz; I did it twice on the same day. Then checked the next day and because it showed 20 ppm I thought all was fine, the next day the level was at 2 ppm, added 18 ppm, and again the next day again it went back to near 0 ppm.

    I "Goggled" HEDP and loss and degradation, and found that HEDP while not affected greatly by chlorine or pH, was subject to significant photodegradation due to sunlight if the water has metals in it, especially if combined with iron and possibly copper. If you "Google" typing "HEDP Photodegredation", there are many discussions on the subject. Obviously it does not affect boiler treatment as no sunlight enters the cylinders. I am not stating that this is the reason but it seems a reasonable explanation as to why the sequestrant HEDP is being used up so quickly. If you think, or know any other reason could you please advise your thoughts.

    Today I raised my CyA to 60 from 25, normally I keep it at 30, to see if this will offset the effect of sunlight as I cannot afford to keep putting in this much sequestrant. I will have to see if that works.

    Question, my main issue right now is mild copper staining, if you read the articles shown by Google are they saying that during the photodegredation process the iron, and perhaps copper, are the released into the air? As I am no chemist I cannot understand exactly what is happening during this process.

    I think the reason that some people are posting that even though they have added the sequestrant the water becomes colored again showing signs of iron or copper in it, this may be due to the fact that the sequestrant is being quickly used up during the photodegradation process, as effectively there is only 0.002% sequestrant in the water at 20 ppm. If this is so, and if the CyA is low at 30 ppm I think, but do not know, that photodegradation is taking place at a rapid rate causing the HEDP levels to drop to 0 ppm very quickly, thereby causing this coloration.

    I hope that raising the CyA to 60 ppm will solve the issue and will advise if it does.

    Question, if one is trying to get rid of copper staining faster might it be better to leave it at 30 ppm with the apparent photodegradation in place? I personally do not think so but would like a more scientific opinion.

    Once the In-Pool Acid Treatment is over the new target figures will look as follows, I changed from my previous target figures due to increased CyA:

    pH 7.6 - 7.7
    Alk 80
    FC 4.5 - 5
    Calcium Hardness 400
    CyA 60
    Salt 3000
    Borates 0
    Temp 78 - 83 (Avg. 80)
    CSI -0.15 to -0.05

    Any comments or help would be appreciated.
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP and Photodegradation

    The answer is the CyA was too low. Yesterfay morning added 25 ppm of instant conditioner (CyA), did not have a full jug, and this morning it had only lost 2 ppm. So the mystery it seems is solved, it was photo degradation, or if you prefer UV caused loss by the sun's rays. Will add another 20 ppm of dry granule CyA to bring it up to 60 ppm.

    Hope this helps others.
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP and Photodegradation

    Thank you so much for posting this. I have a case of Magenta waiting for me at the UPS store and the sequestrant test kit. I'll keep good notes so we can compare.

    I like to keep my CYA near 60. It is now 40-50, with four lbs sitting by the pool to be added today (two knee highs in front of one return) but I have to clean the filter first which I'll do, later today, once the air temp is down below 100 and I have some shade )

    I'm treating for several things. After an acid wash in 2008 for scale, iron stain, copper stain I continued to use the Floatron, ionizer=copper, had a much increased daily "load" of iron carrying dust/silt into the water (three new very active big and GIANT, swimming puppies, stirring up the dust and carrying more into the pool than the high winds blow in) AND from summer 2008 to summer 2009 (found TPF) still kept the water unbalanced and did not use sequestrant.

    From fall 2007 till mid summer 2008, prior to the acid wash, the pool became a frog pond, and sat, partially empty the whole time. All of the copper staining is below the water line of the partially drained pool. (The Floatron sat in the pool all that time.) When we acid washed it appeared that we go rid of all the copper staining. But, still using the Floatron for one more year, the copper staining "reclaimed" its position.

    In fall 2009, a couple of months after finding TFP, keeping everything balanced, I did an AA treatment, mostly to remove iron staining on the scale. Either the AA treatment exacerbated the copper staining or I just couldn't see it under the scale that started releasing in large amounts after the AA treatment and using a lot of sequestrant the whole winter and into spring 2010. I'm still using the sequestrant, HTH metal control, keeping the pH at 7.2, and keeping TA/CH in balance, maintaining a CSI around -0.30. Calcium is continuing to release, and iron staining is kept at bay as long as I don't let the pH get much over 7.2.

    The copper staining is getting more and more apparent as more and more scale is releasing. BTW... my plaster is blue so white or stained white scale, and it's release, is really easy to observe against the blue plaster.

    As the pool surfaces become more and more blue the copper staining is getting more and more apparent. And it is still limited to below the line at which the water sat for part of a year, when it was partially drained.

    I can't do another acid wash on this old, but in good shape plaster as it is 14 year old and has had three acid washes. I do not want to do Jack's #2 treatment, for the copper as the pool need to be available for use every day. (It can take weeks for the treatment to work especially if the staining is old.)

    So I'm trying out the Jacks Magenta as it appears to be the most appropriate and least affected by high chlorine levels. I don't shock but I do take the FC up to the top of my range every other day.

    I realize that if there is any success with the Magenta, for the copper staining, it might take a long time. I'm prepared to do that. The water is so clear it is easy to determine changes on the surfaces. At any rate, I'll always need some kind of sequestrant in pool at all times to keep away the iron staining. It stains mostly the remaining scale, in shallow end, where the dust/silt settles between between cleaner cycles, 2-3 cycles a day.

    I'll keep everyone posted as our observations and results could help a lot of other people.

    Moderators---- In this instance shouldn't we keep the Magenta/UV under one topic?

    gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP and Photodegradation

    Keep in mind that Jack's Magenta stuff is not one of the sequestrants that we normally recommend. It is not based on the same phosphonic acid derivatives that the rest of the Jack's line uses.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP and Photodegradation

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    Keep in mind that Jack's Magenta stuff is not one of the sequestrants that we normally recommend. It is not based on the same phosphonic acid derivatives that the rest of the Jack's line uses.
    That's good information. About the Magenta they do say it is one of the mostly preventive, but potential treatment over time, that can handle high chlorine and helps with calcium scaling. In addition does well on preventing iron and cooper staining. I have been using a HDEP sequestrant that has been releasing calcium and keeping iron stain at bay, as long as the pH is kept low enough. But it doesn't seem that it is doing anything for the cooper stains on plaster. In fact they look a little more pronounced. I'm not using any products that contain copper nor do I have a heater or any copper pipes.

    I wanted to give it a try especially as it is such a new product that there aren't many reviews or comments to find.

    gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP and Photodegradation

    Thank you for all your replies and information.

    From the MSDS I noted that it contains a 100% Propreitary Formulation with Acrylic Acid Copolymer. Jacks Tech said last week or the week before, that it was similar to "The Magenta Stuff", and was an upgraded "Purple Stuff", so perhaps it might contain some HEDP or some other form of phosphonic acid derivative, but I will call and ask. It does contain some sort of sequestrant as the sequestrant test kit works with it and the color of the liquid in the bottle is very close. It also suffers from photodegradation if the CyA is too low, another indication that it might contain phosphonic acid or one of its derivative such as HEDP as well.

    Acrylic Acid Copolymer do help with scaling and can control iron from what I have read on the net and can be combined with phosphonic acids for water treatment, that is maybe why phosphonic acid is not listed, as it would give away the exact type of Acrylic Acid Copolymer and with which phosphonic acid it might be mated with.

    See here:

    http://www.watertreatmentchemical.hk/03-TH-241.htm

    Although the description is way beyond any understanding I have and I may be completely wrong about the mating of the two chemicals but it appears I could be correct from the above site. If I am wrong please advise.

    So far in the last few days I have seen the copper stains lightening just a little; it appears to be working whatever it might be. In the last few days we have extraordinarily strong winds 40+ mph on our hill, which normally means my white return plastic spouts start to slowly turn brownish from blown in "red dirt" iron, but so far not a hint, and I forgot to turn back on the acid so it climbed to pH 7.6 -7.7. This a very good sign, so for the moment I am going to stick with this "Magenta Stuff".

    Sorry to be so vague but I hope this helps.
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP and Photodegradation

    Smallpooldad, An earlier post of yours is what sent me in the direction of Jack's Magenta. I'm picking it up today from the UPS store and will begin using it tonight. I put enough CYA in last night to bring CYA to 60. Our environments are similar, blazing sun (our air temps get higher though), high winds, iron carrying dust.

    Your post have helped me a lot thanks.

    gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP and Photodegradation

    geekgranny,

    Thank you for your kind comment. As regards copper stains I think the major lifting work was done by Jack's "The Copper and Scale Stuff" treatment, in conjunction with both the Magenta stuff, and a lot of scubbing with a stainless steel brush, with a near 3 week treatment period. The current "Magenta Stuff" also seems to work in a very mild way on the faint copper stains, and does seem to keep the iron sequestered.

    If you are unable to do the "The Copper and Scale Stuff" I would do a Citric Acid treatment overnight, with a lot of scubbing as the Citric acid will work on both copper and iron, whereas the Ascorbic acid is good on iron and could, in some cases, actually make the copper stains become more embedded, and therefore more difficult to remove. This is why after doing about 10 AA treatments over 10 years, or so, it was harder for me to remove them and had to resort to "The Copper and Scale Stuff" . Please excuse me if you have already worked this out.

    Good Luck
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP and Photodegradation

    Quote Originally Posted by smallpooldad
    geekgranny,

    Thank you for your kind comment. As regards copper stains I think the major lifting work was done by Jack's "The Copper and Scale Stuff" treatment, in conjunction with both the Magenta stuff, and a lot of scubbing with a stainless steel brush, with a near 3 week treatment period. The current "Magenta Stuff" also seems to work in a very mild way on the faint copper stains, and does seem to keep the iron sequestered.

    If you are unable to do the "The Copper and Scale Stuff" I would do a Citric Acid treatment overnight, with a lot of scubbing as the Citric acid will work on both copper and iron, whereas the Ascorbic acid is good on iron and could, in some cases, actually make the copper stains become more embedded, and therefore more difficult to remove. This is why after doing about 10 AA treatments over 10 years, or so, it was harder for me to remove them and had to resort to "The Copper and Scale Stuff" . Please excuse me if you have already worked this out.

    Good Luck
    Thanks very much. No I haven't worked this out. It has been reported that the AA treatment can exacerbate the copper stain and I think that this is what happened from my AA treatment last fall. I couldn't see all the copper stain until I started treating for slow release of the scale. As the scale reduces the copper staining becomes more apparent.

    Something real interesting I noticed weeks ago on a step but I am now seeing on the walls. The copper staining, on top of scale forms a slick hard surface. If one goes at just scale with a steel brush it is much easier to remove the scale than the copper stained scale. What has just become very visible, especially on the deep end walls, as the scale is releasing the copper stained areas are becoming more and more "raised" looking above the plaster surface ..... actually the scale is releasing lowering the elevation of the area down to the plaster but not so on the areas of copper stained scale.

    The Citric Acid treatment might be the way to go if I can do it and have the pool closed down for on a few days. At any rate I want to get some Magenta in today as I'm sure my other sequestrant is virtually gone now.

    If I can't get to the Citric Acid treatment for a few days do you think there will be any harm in using the Magenta until I can do the CA treatment?

    Thanks, gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP and Photodegradation

    I do not think any harm would be done by using the Magenta stuff first, if anything it might be better. If there is a larger amount of scale Jack's recommend 2 quarts per 10,000 gallons, ideally keeping the pH at 7.2 best to 7.4 ok, but not higher than 7.6. This helps the scale. In my pool like yours the copper was more pronounced on the scale than it was on the few areas where there was little or no scale. And yes come to think of it, it was shiny, but women tend to be more observant than men, especially old grandpas like me.

    As the Magenta stuff was designed for scale with a sequestrant in it I think it would probably help, if you brush with a stainless steel brush. This will help break up the shiny areas so the stuff can get to work and assist the Citric Acid, once you have time to do it. When you have removed most of the scale probably most of the copper staining will be gone, if your pool is similar to mine. Do not forget to backwash as it chelates it to the filter and do not shock otherwise the metals will be released back into the pool from the filter.

    Spoke with their tech staff and they stated yes the Magenta Stuff does contain as sequestrant mixed with copolymer but they said the ingedients are secret. I asked if it would be better to use the Purple or Magenta stuff, they said the Magenta if I have both scale and metal stains. If metal issues only the Purple Stuff.

    The sequestrant test kit is running out of the purple liquid TK 019 (small bottle), and TK 020 (large bottle), I could only find one place on the net that stocks the small bottle only, here:

    http://store03.prostores.com/servlet...853/Categories

    I will see if I can purchase it directly from Jack's. I still have about 80 of the test tablets left in the kit.

    Taylors kit is expensive plus the testing procedure is complicated, see here:

    http://www.taylortechnologies.com/pr...D=2&KitID=2504

    http://www.taylortechnologies.com/pr...er&Number=5059

    The great thing is despite the strong winds, lots of rain, no re-appearing stains, finally it seems the re-occuring stain problems are resolved.

    Hope this helps and good luck, maybe you can get your grandkids to do the brushing, or better still your children on whom you lavished love, care, attention and money on. I hope you have more luck than I did when I informed my children it was "Payback time" and they informed me "Not yet". The grandkids are too young for payback.
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP and Photodegradation

    Quote Originally Posted by smallpooldad
    Hope this helps and good luck, maybe you can get your grandkids to do the brushing, or better still your children on whom you lavished love, care, attention and money on. I hope you have more luck than I did when I informed my children it was "Payback time" and they informed me "Not yet". The grandkids are too young for payback.
    Same here.

    Thanks for all the info. When I did a base line sequestrant test, before adding Magenta, the reading was 7. Does this indicate that some of the HTH Metal Control was still present?

    I took the pH down to 7 from 7.2 yesterday afternoon then added 2 x 32 oz bottles late at night. I was tired and time for bed so I didn't want to wait for it to mix in to do a base line test of the Magenta. Then I didn't get to testing before sun hit pool so I'll just have to play with some numbers as I go along. I'm trusting that the CYA at 60 is going to help with the UV degradation.

    Is 20 ppm what the Jack's team recommended to you? I guess it's time for me to call them. Until I do I'll keep it at 20.

    BTW.... all of the faint iron staining on scale in shallow end was gone today.

    When I added Magenta I got some clouding but could still see bottom drain; appears about the same today in bright light.

    Thanks, gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP and Photodegradation

    As far as the baseline is concerned you get that from your fill water. Run your tap for 30 seconds and then test the baseline, mine was 2 ppm. If yours is say 4 ppm then your sequestrant level based on your reading of 7 would be 3.

    If you put two bottles (2 quarts) of the Magenta sequestrant in the pool per 10,000 gallons you would have added 64 ppm of sequestrant, as 1 ppm = 1oz. If you put 2 quarts of the Purple Stuff, as 1 ppm = 1 1/2oz, you would have added 42 ppm. So Jack is saying get it up to 64 ppm if your pool is not in great shape. The 20 ppm is for an ongoing in-pool acid treatment, 10 ppm is for maintenance only.

    One important thing that Jack's tech staff stated strongly is that once you have done your acid treatment you should bring your alkalinity up to 80 ppm +, using Baking Soda ONLY and NO OTHER CHEMICAL, at a rate of NO MORE than 3 lbs per day for a 10,000 gallon pool, until it reaches 80 ppm. The reason for this is that you do not want to shock the water so that metal staining re-occurs. They were very emphatic about this.

    Note: old bottles/tubs state 4lbs every 8 hours, Jack's tech said this is now wrong and they strongly recommend the above procedure.

    Another thing you can do about 3 days before you do your citric acid treatment is to use their 02 Safe Shock the requirements are copied below:

    "NON-CHLORINE SHOCK) is a non-chlorine shock (but not a persulfate compound). O2 Safe Shock yields more than 12% active oxygen (3 times more oxygen than persulfate compounds). O2 Safe Shock can be used as an acid wash pretreatment, making tough copper stains much easier to remove. Please Note: Not recommended for chlorinated pools, but ideal for biguanide, ozone, and ionization systems."

    Even though my pool is chlorinated they told me to do this, but they knew I was going to drain it afterwards. Super shocking your pool with chlorine would I presume, but get JasonLion or Chem Geek's opinion on this, give the same effect, but remember to keep your pH under control. I would ask JasonLion or Chemgeek how much acid you would need to negate the effect of the rise in pH created by the chlorine as you will not be able to tell from the pH test as it will bleach out. If you have a pH meter then no problem it will tell you your pH regardless of the super chlorination at black algae levels.

    If you are going to Super Chlorinate/Shock with chlorine prior to the acid treatment, backwash your filter just before doing it as otherwise it will lift the chealated metals out of your filter and dump them back in the pool. This happened to me when I accidently shocked the pool with chlorine.

    IMPORTANT: You have to bring the chlorine to zero before doing the Citric acid treatment.

    Note: It is not a good idea to add non-chlorine shock to a SWG chlorine pool that you will not drain as it adds sulfur which may damage the cell.

    I did the O2 stuff and it raises more hidden stains (which will eventually appear at some time in the future) to the surface so the you can be rid of them faster, it means the pool will look far worse for a day or so, brush like mad and they will eventually be sequestered and then chelated away. It does not affect the pH. If you can I would stongly recommend doing the non-chlorine O2 shock if you can. Monitoring your sequestrant level daily as it eats up a lot of the Magenta sequestrant, after the brushing with a stainless steel brush.

    I actually added the O2 Safe Shock when the pool was in the acid treatment process, they told me to add the O2 stuff first then 3 gallons of Muriatic acid per 10,000 gallons. The 3 gallons is not a typo. See my experience here:

    http://www.troublefreepool.com/coppe...t24879-20.html

    I also got clouding, and it eventually goes away in one to three days, measure your sequestrant level once in the morning and once in the evening when you are doing this. Keep an eye on your filter pressure and backwash when necessary. I was amazed at how much stuff came out.

    Finally do not leave your pool cleaner in the water for longer than 10 minutes as it is too acidic during the acid washing stage of treatment and could damage some of the metal parts, completely washing it out with tap water once removed. Best would be not use it at all.

    Hope this helps.
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP and Photodegradation

    More great info. Thank you. I just reread your posts. I should have added a lot more Magenta than I did last night. I will test tap water and pool tonight and bring the Magenta level way up. Also, instead of every other day bleach additions I'm going to do it daily so I don't have to raise FC so much with each addition.

    I really appreciate your help.

    gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP and Photodegradation

    I'm not going to do the citric acid treatment at this time; only the high dose Magenta. It was 101 today but with humidity the index was 110, with predicted humidity increasing over the next few days. So, doggies and people need the pool.

    And the info for citric acid treatment is great for those who need it and when I might need it. Thanks bunches.

    My fill water tests at 2 so the 7 reading I got last night before I added Magenta, which is 7-2=5 must have been the left over HEDP sequestrant from my last addition a couple of weeks ago.

    I took my pH down to 7 yesterday afternoon from 7.2. Then I only added 64 oz of Magenta to take to ~30.6 ppm (including the leftover sequestrant).

    Right now a few hours short of 24 hours, and a really blazing day, UV index off the chart, the Magenta tested 2 ppm. I'll bet most of that loss was due to it working on the pool surface instead of UV degradation though. Filter went up 5 psi from last night.

    When I put the doggies up, I'm going to put in 160 oz for an initial dose to 66 ppm (including the current 2 ppm).

    Two other factors of importance:

    1) pH went down from 7.0 yesterday to 6.8 with test I just did. (FC is only 5)(I'm going to bring it up to 7 before dosing the Magenta)

    2) Filter pressure went from 4 psi (last night after vacuuming prior to adding Magenta) to 9 psi currently. That is equal to the increase of a week of daily vacuuming our dust/silt. (My starting clean pressure, using Fiber Clear or Aqua Pearl, current media I'm trying, is 3 psi, running at 19 gpm. If I use the suction cleaner daily I have to clean the filter weekly. If I use the Aquabot daily I can go four weeks between filter cleaning. That shows how much of our "cementous" dust enters the pool on a weekly basis.) I am really going to have to be on my toes. At least the VF pump will shut down if it gets too drastic.

    I'll be cleaning the filter tomorrow I'm sure. I'm not going to backwash rather open filter and hose off Quad cartridges. This stuff is too expensive to throw away.

    Questions: Doing just the Magenta "shock".

    1) I'm pretty sure the Magenta ppm is going to fall pretty fast. After the initial 64 ppm do I then let it go down to 20 ppm and hold it there until I'm satisfied with the results and then take it down to 10? I don't know many people, including me, who could afford to hold it at 64 for more than a few days.

    2) What can I expect to see with pH, TA, CH? I've already seen the falling pH taking it to just ~30 ppm.

    3) When should I adjust the pH up towards 7 if it goes any lower?

    4) How about TA and CH. (TA 80 before Magenta/CH either close to 200 or close to 300 See below.)

    5) Do you know what "critical" TA CH numbers would be while the Magenta is falling to 20 ppm? Critical, meaning should I intervene and bring them up slowly if needed?

    This is true. The puppies ate a bunch of my papers, The Australian Cattle Monsters, including some of my PoolCal testing records. I'm digging to see if the last reading I have for CH was before I added the 4 lbs Calcium or after.

    Many thanks, gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

  15. Back To Top    #15

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP and Photodegradation

    To keep things on record:

    I just added the 166 oz Magenta to bring sequestrant up to 66 ppm. An hour before added ~200 oz 6% bleach to bring FC from 5 to 9 (my target range with CYA 60 is 5-9)

    As noted in my post above my filter pressure went up 5 psi in a little less than 24 hours, running at 19 gpm, after I put in only enough Magenta to bring it to 30.6 ppm last night.

    My filter runs 21/7, at 19 gpm except when vacuuming, which is infrequent, as the Aquabot keeps so much stuff out of the filter. I give the filter media three 1 hour rest periods during the day to let it settle off and redistribute. This didn't seem to happen with the mixture of our "cementous" dust and Fiber Clear, as the filter pressure resumed right where it left off after each rest period.

    I don't know if it is the nature of the "stuff" (mostly calcium scale) going into the filter or the fact that this is my first run with Aqua Pearl, instead of Fiber Clear, BUT, after the last rest period, before I added the chlorine and Magenta the filter pressure dropped from 9 psi to 6 psi. So it could be the different "stuff" (calcium scale "dust") and less of the "cementous" dust or the action of the Aqua Pearl OR both.

    Thought this was interesting. At any rate, once I get most of the calcium scale removed and filtered out I can run an accurate test using the Aqua Pearl and only cleaning with the Aquabot to compare to the Fiber Clear only running the Aquabot. The Aquabot broke a tread; waiting for kit to come in so last couple of days I used the vacuum cleaner that raised the filter pressure only 1 psi. There has been much less "cementous" dust going in to the pool as the winds have been too "calm". When it is 101 with index 110 a little breeze surely helps a lot. For next week or so our temps aren't going down but the humidity is going up. We might see heat index 120 in next few days. Phoenix, at a dry 110, is beginning to look good.

    I'll test and report psi and sequestrant level before sun hits pool tomorrow morning.

    gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

  16. Back To Top    #16

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP and Photodegradation

    I would imagine at those high temperatures, but do not know for sure - call Jack's Tech at 1-800-348-1656, that the Magenta Stuff will be working very quickly.

    Our pool temperatures because of the high winds and rain, although today was less rainy, are only at 78F, it is La Nina weather here. After reading your temperatures and dust problems I am only in the Junior League by comparison. Please note I edited the prior post yet again, so please re-read.

    Answers to questions by number:

    1. I think you can let the Magenta Stuff go down to 20 ppm and hold it there and it will still do the job.

    2.

    a. The reason to go to 64 ppm, is that it will initially get eaten up fast as you have noted. You could check the sequestrant level every 3 hours and top it up to 20 until it stabilizes, this might have less of an effect on the pH, sorry I just thought of that.

    b. The pH will drop, the TA might go down but try to get it back to 50 ppm if you plan to swim (lower is actually better to do the job but no good for swimming - stinging eyes, etc.), 100 ppm max; that should help bring the pH up, using the 3 lbs of Baking Soda per 24 hour period for a 10,000 gallon pool but no more, do not use Borax at this stage. Mix the Baking Soda in a bucket at about 1lb at a time, then add to pool.

    c. FC should be whatever the Chlorine/CYA chart recommends for normal dosage, do not let it get to near any kind of shock level, the Magenta Stuff will not affect the FC by very much.

    d. CH should be betwen 200 and 400 ppm, no higher. pH should be 7.20 ideal if you wish to swim (lower is OK if not), and 7.4 max.

    3. I would let pH adjust up naturally, which it should do hopefully if Baking Soda is added. But because of your high temperatures it may not, so call Jacks and ask them if there is any chemical you can use, I think you get up 5 or 6 hours before us in Hawaii, but my guess is no. But let us all know.

    4. TA above 50 or 60 for comfortable swimming, I believe that I have never swam in my pool when it was lower than 60 others may say it is OK below 50, comments anyone. CH will not change, at least not by much in my experience

    5. You can bring TA up at anytime as described above, CH can be adjusted anytime either up, by adding calcium which you have mixed in a bucket of pool water until it looks near clear, or down by draining.

    Final notes:

    I would continue washing your filter out as you do not want the chelated metals re-entering your pool, I would ask Jack's Tech Support if it is OK to wash or would it be better to backwash, explaining your problem of cost, etc. By this I mean to say that the metals may be trapped in both the stuff you wash away and your media. A compromise may be to wash as you are doing and then backwash a little, say at half the normal amount of time you would normally backwash for. After a few days, and a few backwashes, I found my filter pressure stopped rising as often as it did, and then stabilized, but you have a much bigger pool than me.

    John is the gentleman I normally speak to and he is very knowledgable, if he cannot answer the question he does not guess but speaks to Jack directly. By which I mean he is not insecure and has no problem saying I do not know and let me find out. He talks really fast but is very helpful.

    Good Luck
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

  17. Back To Top    #17

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP Photodegradation, Iron Copper Scale Removal

    Dad, you are so awesome.

    I tested ~ 0630 and have some numbers. Left for airport. Pump shut off between 0700-0800 for one of the filters "rest periods". Got home ~0900 and got some more numbers then brought Magenta up to 26.2 ppm. Interesting and going right along with what you are advising/reporting. It's approaching 1000 so I'm going to check psi again and then do the first ss brushing for the day. Will then post numbers and observations taken since last night. It's only 86 F right now. Local Municipal Center (where our Weatherbug station is) reports wind steady at 15 mph directly from west. I see a bare rustle of leaves at top of trees. This is why I call 20 mph a "gentle breeze". Although I'm virtually at the top of the hill the woods don't let much "wind" get down into our yard until it gets stronger and/or becomes variable in intensity and/or direction. At times it is much like a sub-tropical rainforest, but currently is a dryforest but trying to get to rainforest humidity. Thank goodness it won't get anywhere near 100% humidity. DH goes weekly, for work, to near one of the most southern points in US but inland a bit (US/Mexican border). It has been cooler down there lately than here and many parts of the mainland. Actually, it is cooler down there than in Nashville, TN, where my DD lives. BTW.... our temps/index are not anywhere near records like what is currently happening in many parts of the Mainland. El Nina

    I'll get back with some numbers when I finish brushing the pool. DH made me promise I would stop working outside before it hit 100 F. I need to put new batteries in the wireless pool thermometer. Will do that when I come back in. The little fountain I keep going while pump is running 21/7 probably is what is keeping my pool temps just at or a little below 90 F.

    gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

  18. Back To Top    #18

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP Photodegradation, Iron Copper Scale Removal

    I haven't started brushing yet but will start as soon as I get this post off.

    I've decided to backwash instead of break down the filter and hose off. Reason... As the Aqua, Pearl loading with mostly calcium dust, is responding to the filter rest periods by reducing psi significantly during rest period I feel pretty confident backwashing will remove the debris (and I have two HUGE bags of the Aqua Pearl) as opposed to using Fiber Clear loaded with our "cementous" dust which didn't respond to filter rest periods nor backwash out in any significant amount even using thousands of gallons of water (one time I used 9" out of the pool and still didn't get near clean filter psi). A little extra Magenta will certainly be worth its volume in gold by not having to open and clean the filter so much. My back has been out so Magenta costs is going to be a lot less than time lost not being able to walk.

    Later, gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

  19. Back To Top    #19

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP Photodegradation, Iron Copper Scale Removal

    I will post updates on what I've been doing and numbers but short for time right now.

    Bottom line talked to a John at Jacks just now. He told me that Jacks test kit doesn't work for the Magenta. Well no wonder it keeps testing at 2 ppm twice a day. He actually was alarmed at what I'm doing. I certainly didn't expect that. Wants me to bring the TA up to 80 which will raise my pH, too but keep the pH at 7.2 as I was doing before the Magenta, and get the Magenta out of the pool as fat as possible, backwashing as often as needed and run my cleaners and brush. Soon take the water to a place he recommended near here to test for TDS and order a case of Blue. And replace some water and keep balancing if I can replace water to get the Magenta out. He doesn't want me to add any sequestrant until I call him with numbers, especially TDS, and then he will proceed to tell me when and how much Blue to add.

    He said, "I'll bet most of the clouding is the Magenta." Well, to tell you the truth part of it is the Magenta but the filter is loading so fast a whole lot of it is suspended calcium scale. And I certainly have a lot of experience with suspended calcium scale from this spring. I didn't even mention the clouding. I told him the clouding didn't bother me as I know a process is going on.

    He asked me if I was letting the dogs swim in 6.8 pH and I told him they haven't liked it that low, which is true but I spent a lot of time in pool yesterday, trying to defeat the heat when I was brushing. pH didn't bother me but I didn't open my eyes under water.

    For now this mornings numbers: (pH has fallen from 7.0 to something below 6.8 since a couple of days ago) FC (with normal additions), CH staying same but TA has gone down from 80 to 30. I've been running on recirculate since last night as haven't had time to backwash. I haven't run cleaner but will throw it in soon after I add some BS. The Aquabot is still out of commission with broken tread but hopefully it will be in soon.

    Tested this a.m. before sun hit pool.
    pH 6.8
    FC 5
    CC 0
    TA 30
    CH 260
    CYA ~60 (based on the four lbs I added a few days ago)

    FC is holding the same as if no treatment going on.
    Our UV index is around 11 right now.

    Will get back later.

    gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

  20. Back To Top    #20

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    Re: Sequestrant HEDP Photodegradation, Iron Copper Scale Removal

    Spoke with John, and discussed the issue of the sequestrant test kit being used with the Magenta and yes he repeated the same to me. I told him that he and I had spoken many times on the phone (more than 5) and had, except for the first call where I mentioned the Purple Stuff always talked about the Magenta Stuff. Even discussing whether or not it contained a sequestrant which both he and two other techs said it does, and the fact that I was using a lot of it up according to the test kit . It seems it must have a sequestrant as it also treats metal(s) in the plural. He said he apologized because maybe he misunderstood and that he was not a chemist and did not know its exact formulation, nor exactly how it worked, but as stated to you he did not believe the test kit worked with the Magenta Stuff.

    I explained to him that I had been measuring sequestrant levels with the test kit and that they did indeed go up and down, with the Magenta Stuff. He said maybe I still had some Purple stuff in the pool, I answered no as the pool had been completely drained. He stated that the reason the pool goes cloudy was because it was removing phosphates. Well my pool was re-filled and measured about 200 for phosphates, so very low, so that was not it. The reason I got cloudiness in my opinion is that it was taking out the scale, and indeed the filter did have to be backwashed after a few days later. And the remaining scale is coming off slowly.

    He also stated that it might weaken the walls, I asked him how could that be if the pH was above 7.0 and the the Magenta Stuff was designed for scale and metal control. He repeated he was not a chemist and would have Jack himself call me, possibly today, maybe Monday.

    When I was doing the "Copper and Stain Treatment" for 2 weeeks and using the "Magenta Stuff" 90% of the time, the pH was 6.2 to 6.4, and the Alkalinity was 20 to 30. And then Jack himself after the two weeks were up said add "O2 Safe Shock", and 3 Gallons of Muriatic Acid, so my pH for those 2 -3 days of treatment was way lower than 6.2, and yet they did not worry, nor was any harm done to the pool and the pool looked great when I drained. With no soft spots.

    So as they say the plot thickens. My pool walls are fine, with about 20 ppm of Magenta Stuff (if the test kit is reading correctly) in the SWG pool, and the faint stains are daily getting lighter and lighter. I have the pH at 7.4, Alk at 80, Salt at 3000 ppm, Calcium at 400, CyA is 40 (that is another story), and FC 5.0 with zero CC on the 0.5 DPD Test. I have a strong suction side pool cleaner with the micron bags and a pool sock also attached and no pool plaster is appearing in the bags. I have/had two dark Magenta colored stains about the size of a dollar coin which have been there for more than 10 years, nothing would dislodge them, one is now gone and the other fading rapidly but the plaster has not gone.

    Once Jack calls me I will let you know, I will also ask him about your TDS issue. John, stated the Magenta stuff is for SWG pools and the Blue for non-SWG. I do plan on switching back to the "Purple Stuff" once I am satisfied most or all of the scale is gone.

    I would also ask JasonLion or ChemGeek at what level TDS becomes a serious issue. My pH when I did the treatment would go a little lower in the morning and rises a little in the afternoon.

    Hope this helps, and I am intrigued as to the final resolution.
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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