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Thread: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    Would installing the heat pump unit right next to my central air conditioning unit give me any advantage at all like draw even warmer air more efficiently and cost effectively?.....It always seems to be blowing hot air out of it.....I wonder if the heat pump could utilitize that in any way if its installed close to it?

    What do you guys think?
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    There could be some small gain in efficiency that way. Air conditioning is more efficient when the outside temperatures are lower, and the air coming out of the pool heat pump will be cooler. Likewise the pool heat pump is more efficient if the outside temperature is higher, and the air coming out of the air conditioner will be warmer. But there will only be a gain when both units are running at the same time. You also need to be careful that they don't block each others air flow significantly when the other unit is off.

    The total gain possible isn't all that large partly because pool heat pumps run the most in the spring and the fall, while home air conditioning runs the most in the middle of the summer.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    In regards to a Pump. If I go with a 14x28 vinyl pool, what pump would you recommend I get...I see alot of installers include the Hayward SuperPump 1hp and 1.5 hp but I have learned from you all that having a larger hp pump is just going to skyrocket my electric bill with no difference in the quality of my filtration. So my question is if all I really need is a 3/4 HP to run my pool efficiently, will it be powerful enough to backwash my 300lb sand filter? ....And what is the difference between all the PUMPS from Hayward like the Super II, Northstar and Tri Star...it can get very confusing when trying to select the right pump for my pool.

    And why is the Pentair pumps so much more money too...they are almost twice the price as the Haywards...can any offer a little clarity with this...thanks!
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    If you don't have a spa or any water features, a 3/4 HP pump is probably going to be just fine, especially if you get one of the more efficient pumps. Being labeled 3/4 HP doesn't tell you everything. You want a 3/4 HP "full rated" pump, which typically has an SFHP of well over 1, while a "max rated" pump might have an SFHP if just below 1.

    The pricing is actually quite close if you compare pumps with similar specs from dealers with similar discounting practices. It is rare that a single dealer will have a good price on both brands.

    Pumps vary is several ways. In addition to the obvious differences, like the listed HP, there are more subtile differences that aren't obvious at a glance. For example, the Pentair WhisperFlo and Hayward TriStar move more water per watt of electricity than most other single speed/two speed pumps. Pumps also vary in their "head" rating. "Head" is a measure of how high the pump can move water straight up. Typically an above ground pool uses a low head pump and an in-ground pool uses a high head pump.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    ok thanks that was very helpful, however is the 3/4 HP going to be able to handle backwashing a 300lb sand filter in my 14x28 pool with no struggles?

    Or should I just be safe a purchase the 1HP TriStar Hayward?......since its energy efficient, can I assume that the 1HP TriStar will save me as much or more money throughout the season than just a 3/4 Hayward SuperPump?



    Here's another question, Im a big stickler for performance stats and high end equiptment but I dont think I want to spend the cash now on the top of the line Pumps, Heat Pumps, Filtering system, Salt Water, etc......Rather than keep haggling with the pool builders to price me out the pool package with all of the better equiptment then they are offering in their cart blanc, would it be wise for me to just take their basic package and slowly upgrade to the better equiptment as I see fit?

    I would like to get it all from the beginning, but it seems like the builders are almost doubling the price of all the premium upgraded equiptment then what it actually is retailing for all over the internet. So I am thinking, I can probablly save alot down the road by just purchasing the peices individually later on.

    Are most of the filters, pumps, Heat Pumps, Salt generators pretty easily replaceable and interchangeable once they are initially plumbed?

    Sorry if I asked too many questions
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    A 1 HP pump will use more total electricity than a 3/4 HP pump, even if the 1 HP is efficient and the 3/4 HP isn't. The difference won't be anywhere near as large as it would be if both pumps were the same efficiency, but the smaller pump will still win.

    mas985 has a spreadsheet that you can use to compare pumps, see this topic.

    Yes, it is fairly easy to swap out a pump, filter, SWG, etc, though it does require doing some plumbing and all but the filter require some minor electrical work.

    Negotiating with the builder can involve tradeoffs. Builders often price extras well above what they would otherwise cost. However, keep in mind that the builder warranty is worth a fair bit, and changes you make later aren't going to be covered by that warranty. There is no clear best approach, it depends too much on the situation.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    Thank you so much again Jason for your help...since I dont really understand alot on those charts, I'll simply ask you this....

    Considering I am building a 14x28 Pool with 2 Skimmers an AquaCal SQ10 Heat Pump, a 300lb Sand Filter, a Salt Water Generator, a Main drain and 3 or 4 returns, no spas, and no jets........should I go for a 3/4 HP Pump to run that or step up to a 1HP?

    And also, should I go with 1 1/2" piping or 2" piping for my situation?...........When I ask for either size piping, does that mean its the same size all around and throughout? The reason I ask is because I think one of the pool installers told me the piping would be 'this' size here but then it will step up to this size 'there'....which confused me a bit

    thanks

    Lori
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    I would get a 3/4 HP pump and use 2" pipe for most of the runs, but you can do it other ways and still be alright.

    It is common for the pipe diameter to vary a little bit in different places. The equipment pad is often done in 2" pipe even when most of the other pipes are 1.5". Sometimes when several return lines are run from the pad out to the individual returns they use smaller pipe, the fact that there are several runs makes up for the smaller diameter. And so on.

    The smaller pump will save you money on electricity. How important that is depends on how much you are paying for electricity. In NJ it probably ins't that big a deal, but every little bit helps.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    Thanks....should I go Gas or Heat Pump if Im only using the pool about 3 months out of the year?

    If you suggest Heat Pump, what should be the appropriate BTU for my 14x28?


    Do you prefer a specific Heat Pump over another?


    I see you have an Autopilot Total Control SWG....should I go with that one....or another? Is yours about $2000?

    thanks again!
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    Gas costs less up front, but they are tremendously expensive to run. Gas is good for heating up a spa quickly, but a heat pump is much better for keeping the pool warm all the time.

    There are a number of good heat pumps. I have heard good things about AquaCal, but really most of them are fine. For a heat pump, the largest you are going to find is usually around 120K BTU, maybe 150K BTU. With a heat pump you normally run it all the time, because warming up from cold is going to take days.

    Unless you love gadgets or have huge amounts of aeration (think negative edge), I would go with an AutoPilot Digital, instead of the Total Control. The Total Control system can be very nice, but there are more things that need taking care of/fiddling with. That isn't something everyone will be interested in doing.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    Thanks once again for all your help...in regards to Heat Pumps, should I just buy the biggest I can afford, or should it be matched with the correct pool size for best results?.....Is there any advantages with having a bigger Heat Pump then is recommended for a 14x28?....or would I simply be wasting money if I went with anything larger than a 107-110 btu pump?

    (Im writing all this stuff down)
    thanks

    Lori
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    Larger heat pumps cost significantly more to purchase/install but are otherwise a good investment (if you end up using it). A larger heat pump can extend the swim season longer, should you choose to do that. It will also heat the water up faster from a cold start, which can come in handy sometimes.

    I was just reminded that there are some areas of the country where gas heat is less expensive. This only happens when electric rates are very high, as they are is much of California.

    The main risk with a heater is that you may end up not using it, and thus wasting the investment. We used to add two months to the swim season on either end, but the costs are substantial and we stopped doing that when the economy turned down last year.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    Thanks once again Jason

    I think I may just go with one of these advertised deluxe pool packages and then add a Heat Pump afterward....Im not sure. I definitely think I am going to leave off a SWG and just go with whatever auto chlorinator comes with these packages. I could easily just install the SWG and the Heat Pump the following year. Or is it easier to install at the same time your innstalling a pool?

    Do you think that is a smart move?......Im trying to save money. And I think with a Heat Pump and a SWG, the price adds on another $6,000 to my total bill.
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    The main thing to do up front is to make sure there is enough power run to the equipment pad to be able to power the heat pump. You don't want to run wires this year and then need to dig that up and run heavier wires next year. Other than that issue, it is very easy to add a heat pump, or SWG, latter.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    Is a 90 amp sub panel installed on the side of my house sufficient?.........I just recieved a quote from an electrician to install the 90amp sub panel and wire all the installed pool equipment, wire light and deck box with a single timer and bonding for $1650.

    Was I overcharged or do you think that's fair?
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    Yep, 90 amps is fine. Prices vary dramatically depending on how far the wires need to run and what is in the way, so it is difficult to judge how good a deal that is. It is certainly in the plausible range.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    I dont want to start another thread so I'll ask here,

    THru my research and assistance from you all, I have learned that it is better to run as low a pump as you can longer for better circulation and effiency, with that said, I am not sure which 2 speed pump I should get to match my pool to achieve the best balance:

    I am building a 14x28 pool with some side wall suction for an inline polaris...no spas or waterfalls (maybe down the road but I doubt it)

    Do I choose either the Hayward Tri Star 2speed 1HP pump or the 1.5HP?? ..........Does this mean that either of them can run half of those speeds too?

    If so, does that mean the 1HP can also run 1/2HP when switch while the 1.5 HP model can run at 3/4HP when switched?.....which one would you recommend?...or some completely different setup?

    Im also asking for 2" plumbing and getting a Hayward 24" (300lb) Side mount Sand Filter to match with it

    I've mentioned this before but I still need help with selecting the right pump to be most efficient while giving me some extra power if needed.

    thanks,

    Lori
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    Hayward Tristar 1hp 2-speed!

    They run at half speed, not half the hp. It depends on the motor, but a 1 hp is close to a 1/6th hp on low speed and a 1½hp is about ¼hp on low speed. Don't bother yourself about that though, just know that they'll work.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    ok thanks for clearing that up...my conception of a 2 speed was always that the rated hp would be cut in half on the lower speed.

    Ok with that clarified and established that the 1HP 2speed TriStar pump would be the right choice, then what purpose would the LOW SPEED serve for me running at 1/6th HP?...when would I ever utilize it?.....could I circulate the pool at low a rate?...if not, what purpose does having this 2 speed Tri Star serve over getting just a 1HP Super Pump?

    Im understanding this but still trying to figure out the differences in functionalities

    thanks
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

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    Re: Is BIGGER always BETTER?....Are there PROs and CONs?

    Quote Originally Posted by fudgebar
    ok thanks for clearing that up...my conception of a 2 speed was always that the rated hp would be cut in half on the lower speed.

    Ok with that clarified and established that the 1HP 2speed TriStar pump would be the right choice, then what purpose would the LOW SPEED serve for me running at 1/6th HP?...when would I ever utilize it?.....could I circulate the pool at low a rate?...if not, what purpose does having this 2 speed Tri Star serve over getting just a 1HP Super Pump?

    Im understanding this but still trying to figure out the differences in functionalities

    thanks
    Save on energy costs
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