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Thread: Fudgebar's pool build- have a lot of questions...

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    Fudgebar's pool build- have a lot of questions...

    Multiple separate topics related to pool build questions have been merged by moderators. Some posts may appear to be out of order. Please keep all your build related questions on this thread. Thank you.

    Folks...I just joined today and want to say Im happy to be here.

    My first question is this...im about to purchase my first in ground pool and Im deciding between a 12x24 or a 14x28 in ground vinyl liner pool. My yard is a side yard (corner property) and the setback space that I have available to build in is approx 35x42 give or take a foot. So I dont know if I want the pool to take up too much space because I do want some patio area. Altho, since my property is a corner property and the pool will go on the side yard, I also have some area on the other side of the house too.

    So back to my original question, I like everything about vinyl pools, price, look, feel, etc except for one thing...that ugly white plasticy-looking coping around the pool. It makes it look cheap. Actually, I also dont like the look of those white plasticy-looking steps either. It makes it look like some sort of orthopedic rehabilitation facility rather than construction addition and improvement to your house.


    With regards to this, are there aesthetic options that could be done to hide or replace these 2 concerns? Can I get stones or paving over that coping to simulate a gunite pool? If so, is it layed right over the vinyl coping?...how does that impact replacing and access to the coping if service is needed in the future?

    In regards to those hideous steps...what are my options?



    Finally, if you were me in regards to my yard space, would you go with a 12x24 or a 14x28? Im looking for your classic rectangle style


    Thanks all for assisting a new member!
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

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    Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

    Folks, Heres the actual quote I recieved for a build job for my in ground pool in North Bergen area of NJ. I think it's a little high AND Im curious as to why certain pieces of equipment were chosen. Since I havent much background in all the equiptment and specs, I am asking from some more experienced pool customers or installers just to spend a moment of their time to glance at it and possibly provide me with some feedback as to what I should either go back to the salesmen and request or change or clarify.

    Or should I dump him altogether??...LOL Just kidding, ... I think


    thanks for your time!

    -----------------Quote-----------------------

    Vinyl-Lined Rectangular Swimming Pool : 14’ X 28’

    Commercial Construction: 14-Gauge Steel Walls, Gibralter Braces, 50% Extra Zinc Rust-Proofing,
    4000 P.S.I. Concrete Footing, Vermiculite-Cement-Fiber-Mesh Floor, 27 Mil Commercial Liner.

    Platinum Package: Hayward 500 Watt Underwater Light, Polaris Pool Cleaner, Jet-Net Skimmer,
    Poolguard Safety Alarm, Colorful Lighted Fountain, Blue or Grey 8’ X 4’ Acrylic Steps with Spa
    Jets and Stainless Steel Safety Rail, Stainless Steel Ladder.

    Super-Efficient Plumbing System with 2 Skimmers, 2 Wall Suction s, 4 Returns, Circulator jet
    Hayward 1HP Superpump
    300 lb. Sand Filter
    Chlorine/Chemical –Free Ionizer Purifier

    AquaComfort Commercial Electric Heat Pump
    Solar Sun Rings & Liquid Solar Blanket
    Nylon Mesh Locking Safety Cover
    Grey Cement Walkway 3’ Around Pool, with Cantilevered Edge

    Permit Preparation (Customer Pays Town Fees)
    Pool Layout and Excavation
    Complete Installation
    Backfill and Grading within 4 Feet from Water Line
    Dirt Transportation (Customer Pays Disposal Fee If Any)
    Temporary Safety Construction Fencing
    Deluxe Maintenance Kit with Safety Rope and Floats
    Pool Start-Up and Orientation
    28-Day Completion Guarantee
    Owner-Involved Customer Service!

    Warranty: Life-Time All Materials and Labor

    Total Price: $ 34,900
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

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    Re: OPTIONS to improve look of that UGLY white Vinyl Coping??

    Most Vinyl liner pool kits I've looked at offer a cantilever coping option so that the concrete, bricks, flagstone, etc... go right up to the edge of the pool, so no white bullnose coping to look at.
    http://www.poolwarehouse.com/swimmingpoolkitcoping.html

    I've seen some people have been able to find the steps in colors that match their liners, which is a huge improvement IMO.
    http://www.totalvinyl.com/main.php?mod=triacsteps

    Personally I'd figure up what you want for a patio, then go as big as possible on the pool

  4. Back To Top    #4

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    Re: OPTIONS to improve look of that UGLY white Vinyl Coping??

    LOL....Jason, no offense...but those steps you linked me to are the exact steps I am looking to AVOID!

    If those are an improvement, I wonder the other ones looked like?

    Are those my only options for steps?


    thanks for your help...also, the link you sent me for the cantilever coping was helpful, do you have any real world images I could see of it in place on a pool?

    thanks again and I welcome more comments
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

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    dmanb2b's Avatar
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    Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

    Best thing you can do is get a couple of other quotes. NY Pennysaver had a few adds recently for roughly $20K, but I'm not sure what you get for that

    Call around, get 5-6 estimates and then ask for references and call them too! Guarantees are only as good as the builder...so a 28 day completion guarantee is great, but what recourse do you have if it takes longer...is it free?

    Good luck with the build...the pump/filter combo seems spot on...that about where my expertise falls off.
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

    Pool School, TFTestKits, Pool Calculator

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    Re: OPTIONS to improve look of that UGLY white Vinyl Coping??

    Look at my pool. I have cantilever coping made out of stone. And..I thought those white fiberglass steps look bad too. I went with steps inside the pool. The liner covers the steps and is solid blue so you can differentiate the steps from the pool bottom.

    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

  7. Back To Top    #7

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    Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

    Thats not a bad price for the east coast. I have a similar set up. 2 skimmers might be overkill for that pool, but for the price, let him do it. I have the same heat pump; I like mine.
    He might be about 3-4k high. That rectangle is a lot cheaper than the kidney i have and mine was a couple thousand cheaper AND i have automation and a SWG. Then again, he's including a locking safety cover (what kind?). Thats worth around 2k including install right there. I'd ditch the ionizer, you dont need it. Think about a SWG as well. Overall, he might be ~4k too high. But then again it's jersey so i'm not sure. In Massachusetts, that's in the ballpark.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

    Thanks for the feedback...Im not good at haggling, what is the BEST thing for me to say to him to try and get him to lower the quote AND include the items you mentioned SWG in place of ionizer?......etc?

    Also do all pool installers pretty much include the 3ft patio around pool? When I scoffed at the price, he mentioned that it also includes this....thanks for all the feedback please keep it coming




    thanks
    Lori
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

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    Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

    No the 3 ft patio is not standard, at least around here.

    Ask him about the price, SWG, etc. There no magic to it, just talk to him.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

    Welcome to TFP!!

    I'm from Tenafly

    3' isn't a lot of deck, but it's about as small as you can go and still install a safety cover (without having to resort to lawn stakes, which voids the safety part of it )

    One thing not mentioned in the quote is a fence. is your yard already fenced?

    The price isn't bad as it includes the cantilever deck ($$$) and the safety cover (and probably a free first closing and opening, ask him about that )

    Please provide us with as many pics of the install as you can - we love pics
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

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    Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

    guys, thanks for all the assistance.....In regards to a Heat Pump vs a Gas Heater comparing installation prices, quality and performance, which would you recommend in the NJ area. I am not getting a jacuzzi or spa, ....just a pool.


    Also, if I step down from a 14x28 to a 12x24.....what pricing should I negotiate to leverage down that original quote?

    thanks for all your help again!
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

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    Re: OPTIONS to improve look of that UGLY white Vinyl Coping??

    2 quick questions about your coping and steps of which both look GREAT....


    Does having a stone cantilever coping OVER the edge like that create any problems when and if servicing the liner needs to be done?

    Does having the liner OVER the steps create any additional puncture, air bubbles, or other risks??

    Sorry if these are stupid questions but I am trying to learn as I go along

    thanks,

    Lori "fudgebar"
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

  13. Back To Top    #13

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    Re: OPTIONS to improve look of that UGLY white Vinyl Coping??

    The answer to both questions is no.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

    Heat pump hands down. I'll comment on the other stuff later.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

    One more thing, you may want to get him to quote you an upgrade to a 2 speed pump, it can pay for itself on saved electricity for most people. I also say ditch the ionizer.
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
    I use and endorse TFtestKits TF-100 from http://tftestkits.net
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    Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

    ditch the ionizer again?....why do you guys all say this?...please explain, Im a newbie

    ...and replace it with what? Also what should be the cost difference?

    Also is sand fine?....no one mentioned anything about sand but yet from my little research, I have read that sand is the WORST of the 3, (cartridge, DE)

    Folks....How can I get this price down and still add these options you guys are recommending? What are some key things to say to try to have him lower my quote?
    Design 14x26 (10,000 gal) in ground vinyl pool, 2 Wide Mouth Skimmers, 3 Returns
    Equip 3.0 HP Pentair VS pump motor, 48 FNS Plus DE filter, IC20 SWCG, 400Btu NG Heater
    Extras Easy Touch Automation, Pentair LED Lite, Kreepy Krawl Racer pressure cleaner
    Water pH 7.5, Total Alk 90, Free Cl 4.5, Combine Cl 0.25, CYA 65, CH 275, Salt 4100ppm, Borates (Boric Acid) 50ppm

  17. Back To Top    #17

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    Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

    Sand is fine. There are cartridge people and DE people too, and they will tell you what they have is best. But, for ease of use and no hassle, sand is fine.

    Again, the ionizer is not worth the money and really is not needed. Substitute that for salt watewr chlorine generator and the automation that goes with it. A pentair IC-40 with an Easytouch 8 automations system is worth about $1200. Just substitute it for the ionizer, straight up. I'm not that gung ho on 2 speed pumps. They can save electricity a bit, but then again, my 3/4 HP single speed runs 13 hours a day and it olnty adds about 35-40 a month on the bill. You have to look at your electric rates to see if it makes sense. For that size pool, i'd just do a 3/4 HP super pump instead of the 1 HP. Thats plenty for a 14x28 pool.
    As for the deck, i dunno. 3 feet around isnt that big. You want a bigger deck than that. Plus, i'm not big on putting in a deck right after the pool is done. The fill needs to settle some before a deck is done. IMO, ditch the deck and have another contractor do it later.

    Couple of questions i would ask is
    1) does that price include electrical work to hook up the pump, heat pump, etc. for that price he quoted, it should.
    2) what kind of material is he going to use for backfill?

    I'm sure i'll think of more. As far as negotiation, cant help you there really too much. You have to decide of you really want the ionizer or SWG. Do you want the deck he's offering, or get your own guy. a 14x28 shouldnt be more than 15-16k. That doesnt include all the other stuff, thats just the pool. Mine was 22k for the pool. The heat pump, lights, electrical work, salt water and auotmation system, good backfill, the whole nine yards was around 30k. That didnt include a deck or mesh loop loc cover, either, so like i said, he's in the ballpark. I would get another estimate too. 5-6 estimates is overkill, IMO. All the vinyl builders are going to be close, really, they couldnt compete otherwise.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

    I think it's waaaay too high. I just sent you a PM.
    14,700 gal. 14 x 28 rectangle with 2R IG by Hydra Pools, 1 hp Hayward Maxflow ll, Hayward 24" Sand Filter, Aquarite Electronic SWG, one Aqua Genie Complete Skimmer, two main drains, four returns, 2 spa jets in steps, 30ml Tidewater liner. Taylor K-2006 Test Kit

  19. Back To Top    #19

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    Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

    Quote Originally Posted by Malibu07
    I think it's waaaay too high. I just sent you a PM.
    Not for his area it's not . Prices for this kind of thing vary a lot depending where you live. Prices for pools in the northeast are more than they are in the south, period. Thats a decent ball park price for where Fudgebar lives.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

    Quote Originally Posted by bk406
    Quote Originally Posted by Malibu07
    I think it's waaaay too high. I just sent you a PM.
    Not for his area it's not . Prices for this kind of thing vary a lot depending where you live. Prices for pools in the northeast are more than they are in the south, period. Thats a decent ball park price for where Fudgebar lives.
    There are other options and where you live doesn't matter. I've sent him a PM.
    14,700 gal. 14 x 28 rectangle with 2R IG by Hydra Pools, 1 hp Hayward Maxflow ll, Hayward 24" Sand Filter, Aquarite Electronic SWG, one Aqua Genie Complete Skimmer, two main drains, four returns, 2 spa jets in steps, 30ml Tidewater liner. Taylor K-2006 Test Kit

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