I dont have a sequesterant test kit. I dont add near that much. I only add maybe 16 ounces every couple weeks or so. That little bit keeps it clear.
Copper Stains and Re-Occuring Iron Stains
- Thread starter smallpooldad
- Start date
I need help on a number of questions, where I need help I have indicated in bold. I include a current status update and what I will do next. I have also included a few tips from my experience, and finally I will offer some "Points of View" which you are welcome to disagree with as they are only are only "Points of View" from an amateur. I would appreciate your "Points of View" so I may reflect on them.
Status Update:
The pool looks good with a few very faint stains, especially on the lower step, and just a few on the upper step. The sequestrant "Jack's Magic The Magenta Stuff" as of this morning has finally stopped being used up. The sequestrant ppm readings last night and this morning are the same. The pool looks very good to the casual eye, a 95% improvement from where it was. No re-appearing stains are occurring.
I tested the faint stains with 3 Vitamin C tablets, the stains remained. I believe they are organic and deeply entrenched in the plaster.
What I will do next:
I do plan on draining the pool for two reasons. The first is that I do not know what the ingredients of Jack's Magic are in "The Copper and Scale Stuff", they might contain sulfates, which I believe are harmful to saltwater cells. The second reason is that I plan to clean the tiles using 3M's Light Rust and Paint Remover drill attachment, their number 03173, available from Wal-Mart and auto stores, please see tip below. It is coated in Silicon Carbide. I tested this on a piece of glass and it does not scratch, I also tested this on two tiles the top half as the other half was submerged. This worked extremely well returning the tile to an "As New" condition. Unfortunately my cordless drill from Panasonic depleted its power after the second tile. This means I will have to use a corded drill to do the whole pool so I will need the pool empty and water free.
Once drained I may or may not acid wash the steps, depending on the scale. I may also try using the above 3M drill attachment which I feel will be less invasive and not shorten the life of the plaster, as would the acid wash.
As Jack's Magic O2 Non-Chlorine Shock contains sulfates (I am not sure of this statement but most others non-chlorine shocks do), I feel it would be better to add this prior to draining the pool, if I am going to use them (see help requested below). Tonight I will shock the pool with chlorine to see if this will help with the organic/tannin stains.
Help Needed:
Jack's Tech Support suggested that if I plan to drain the pool, that I rebalance the water when filled, but prior to adding chlorine or salt, I should add 5 lbs of their O2 Non-Chlorine shock and wait 30 minutes, skimming of any dirt that floats to the service. As Jack's Magic contains sulfates would it not be better to add this prior to draining the pool?
Will the chlorine shock I am planning on doing tonight help the organic/tannin stain issue?
Is the Non-Organic shock better for organic/tannin stains than a chlorine shock?
Will chlorine and salt in the pool interfere with non-chlorine shock?
If non-chlorine shock is used would I need to add a lot of chlorine after its use?
Would the 3M drill attachment be less invasive than an acid wash?
Am I correct in thinking that the only real way to deal with these organic/tannin stains is to maintain my chlorine at about 1 1/2 times the ppm recommended for maintenance and let it do its work over a long period of time, say 1 to 2 years?
Tips:
If you plan to clean your tiles using 3M's Light Rust and Paint Remover drill attachment, their number 03173, do not think that the bigger "Paint and Rust Stripper", their number 03171 is better, it is not better, as it scratches both glass and tile. Also one cannot use them on a wet surface as the impregnated silicon carbide washes away.
When using the sequestrant it is vital that you have a test kit, or you will never know if you do or don’t have enough sequestrant to do the job, be it in-pool acid wash (18-20 ppm), or as a metal sequestrant (10-12 ppm).
If you do use the "The Copper and Scale Stuff" you have to brush at a minimum twice daily with a steel bush, the whole pool. Also you need to be patient it may take up to two weeks. I feel a good indicator of the completion of this is when the sequestrant stops getting used up. Back wash you filter as necessary, about once a week during the treatment. You can keep your FC at up to 4 ppm during the treatment, you will find that you can turn the saltwater cell to very low to maintain this. Finally you can ONLY raise the alkalinity using baking soda max 4 lbs per day until it rises to 80 ppm.
"Points of View:"
a) Do not assume your problem is "Iron", it may only be part of the problem, and it could be a combination of the three. If your water tests for copper (a cheap aquarium test kit will do) prior to adding sequestrant that maybe your problem. You could also use Jack's Magic test kit, a good idea, to see if you have copper staining which will not show up in the copper water test, or you could use dry acid to see if the stain lifts. It might be organic as well, for this Jack's test kit or by putting a puck on the stain to see if it goes way, it could of course be iron in the water, get Taylor's Iron test kit and test before adding sequestrant, put a vitamin C tablet on the stain to see if it lifts the stain.
b) If you do not do the above three tests, you could make your problem potentially worse and even unsolvable. The Ascorbic Acid Treatment (AA Treatment) sounds great but it could set the Copper stains so that they become nearly irremovable, or at least you will have to resort as I did to the "The Copper and Scale Treatment".
c) Scale could be your issue even if you know that there are no copper stains, no organics, scale will eventually show through, after the AA treatment, as it will temporarily mask the issue.
d) Any of the above issues could be the reason for re-appearing stains after a week or so of doing the AA treatment.
e) As stated before a sequestrant test kit is a must.
d) Do not stop using the sequestrant after two weeks or your problem could return, iron can also come from tannins in organic material and might not show up until there is an organic stain. Better safe than sorry.
e) If it is organic staining it could take a long while before they disappear.
f) Try not to use anything that uses copper or silver either as a feeder or pour in algaecide, as these can cause staining.
g) Copper staining can come from old plumbing, especially if your pool is older than 20-25 years.
h) One could just use "The Magenta Stuff" scrubbing with a stainless steel brush twice daily for 6 to 18 months, to solve the issues. Maintaining a 18-20 ppm solution. But that would be a lot of work.
i) One issue is one needs to isolate one's heater, even if it is titanium, personally I think it is worth the expense. This expense should be minor, to detach and bypass, then re-attach, but it will allow you to do the quicker "Copper and Sale Treatment".
I hope this helps those with the re-appearing iron stain issues, which I had. To those that can offer help to my questions thank you. And as stated if you wish to disagree or offer further points of view please do so. Finally I am only an amateur and the above is not gospel and reflects only my own experiences.
Status Update:
The pool looks good with a few very faint stains, especially on the lower step, and just a few on the upper step. The sequestrant "Jack's Magic The Magenta Stuff" as of this morning has finally stopped being used up. The sequestrant ppm readings last night and this morning are the same. The pool looks very good to the casual eye, a 95% improvement from where it was. No re-appearing stains are occurring.
I tested the faint stains with 3 Vitamin C tablets, the stains remained. I believe they are organic and deeply entrenched in the plaster.
What I will do next:
I do plan on draining the pool for two reasons. The first is that I do not know what the ingredients of Jack's Magic are in "The Copper and Scale Stuff", they might contain sulfates, which I believe are harmful to saltwater cells. The second reason is that I plan to clean the tiles using 3M's Light Rust and Paint Remover drill attachment, their number 03173, available from Wal-Mart and auto stores, please see tip below. It is coated in Silicon Carbide. I tested this on a piece of glass and it does not scratch, I also tested this on two tiles the top half as the other half was submerged. This worked extremely well returning the tile to an "As New" condition. Unfortunately my cordless drill from Panasonic depleted its power after the second tile. This means I will have to use a corded drill to do the whole pool so I will need the pool empty and water free.
Once drained I may or may not acid wash the steps, depending on the scale. I may also try using the above 3M drill attachment which I feel will be less invasive and not shorten the life of the plaster, as would the acid wash.
As Jack's Magic O2 Non-Chlorine Shock contains sulfates (I am not sure of this statement but most others non-chlorine shocks do), I feel it would be better to add this prior to draining the pool, if I am going to use them (see help requested below). Tonight I will shock the pool with chlorine to see if this will help with the organic/tannin stains.
Help Needed:
Jack's Tech Support suggested that if I plan to drain the pool, that I rebalance the water when filled, but prior to adding chlorine or salt, I should add 5 lbs of their O2 Non-Chlorine shock and wait 30 minutes, skimming of any dirt that floats to the service. As Jack's Magic contains sulfates would it not be better to add this prior to draining the pool?
Will the chlorine shock I am planning on doing tonight help the organic/tannin stain issue?
Is the Non-Organic shock better for organic/tannin stains than a chlorine shock?
Will chlorine and salt in the pool interfere with non-chlorine shock?
If non-chlorine shock is used would I need to add a lot of chlorine after its use?
Would the 3M drill attachment be less invasive than an acid wash?
Am I correct in thinking that the only real way to deal with these organic/tannin stains is to maintain my chlorine at about 1 1/2 times the ppm recommended for maintenance and let it do its work over a long period of time, say 1 to 2 years?
Tips:
If you plan to clean your tiles using 3M's Light Rust and Paint Remover drill attachment, their number 03173, do not think that the bigger "Paint and Rust Stripper", their number 03171 is better, it is not better, as it scratches both glass and tile. Also one cannot use them on a wet surface as the impregnated silicon carbide washes away.
When using the sequestrant it is vital that you have a test kit, or you will never know if you do or don’t have enough sequestrant to do the job, be it in-pool acid wash (18-20 ppm), or as a metal sequestrant (10-12 ppm).
If you do use the "The Copper and Scale Stuff" you have to brush at a minimum twice daily with a steel bush, the whole pool. Also you need to be patient it may take up to two weeks. I feel a good indicator of the completion of this is when the sequestrant stops getting used up. Back wash you filter as necessary, about once a week during the treatment. You can keep your FC at up to 4 ppm during the treatment, you will find that you can turn the saltwater cell to very low to maintain this. Finally you can ONLY raise the alkalinity using baking soda max 4 lbs per day until it rises to 80 ppm.
"Points of View:"
a) Do not assume your problem is "Iron", it may only be part of the problem, and it could be a combination of the three. If your water tests for copper (a cheap aquarium test kit will do) prior to adding sequestrant that maybe your problem. You could also use Jack's Magic test kit, a good idea, to see if you have copper staining which will not show up in the copper water test, or you could use dry acid to see if the stain lifts. It might be organic as well, for this Jack's test kit or by putting a puck on the stain to see if it goes way, it could of course be iron in the water, get Taylor's Iron test kit and test before adding sequestrant, put a vitamin C tablet on the stain to see if it lifts the stain.
b) If you do not do the above three tests, you could make your problem potentially worse and even unsolvable. The Ascorbic Acid Treatment (AA Treatment) sounds great but it could set the Copper stains so that they become nearly irremovable, or at least you will have to resort as I did to the "The Copper and Scale Treatment".
c) Scale could be your issue even if you know that there are no copper stains, no organics, scale will eventually show through, after the AA treatment, as it will temporarily mask the issue.
d) Any of the above issues could be the reason for re-appearing stains after a week or so of doing the AA treatment.
e) As stated before a sequestrant test kit is a must.
d) Do not stop using the sequestrant after two weeks or your problem could return, iron can also come from tannins in organic material and might not show up until there is an organic stain. Better safe than sorry.
e) If it is organic staining it could take a long while before they disappear.
f) Try not to use anything that uses copper or silver either as a feeder or pour in algaecide, as these can cause staining.
g) Copper staining can come from old plumbing, especially if your pool is older than 20-25 years.
h) One could just use "The Magenta Stuff" scrubbing with a stainless steel brush twice daily for 6 to 18 months, to solve the issues. Maintaining a 18-20 ppm solution. But that would be a lot of work.
i) One issue is one needs to isolate one's heater, even if it is titanium, personally I think it is worth the expense. This expense should be minor, to detach and bypass, then re-attach, but it will allow you to do the quicker "Copper and Sale Treatment".
I hope this helps those with the re-appearing iron stain issues, which I had. To those that can offer help to my questions thank you. And as stated if you wish to disagree or offer further points of view please do so. Finally I am only an amateur and the above is not gospel and reflects only my own experiences.
So far you have claimed to have iron stains, copper stains, calcium scale, and organic stains. The odds of having all four of those at the same time are essentially nil. If you perform the treatment for a condition you don't have, chances are you are going to make the condition you actually do have worse, or cause damage to the pool.
You have never provided any clear description of what the symptoms you actually have are, certainly nothing sufficient for us to diagnose what is going on or to use as a basis for giving you advice on how to handle it.
If you are going to do the procedure that Jack's Tech Support suggested, you should do it the way they told you to do it and not try to second guess what is going on and make changes to the procedure. Hopefully you gave them enough information that they have some idea what is actually going on.
You have never provided any clear description of what the symptoms you actually have are, certainly nothing sufficient for us to diagnose what is going on or to use as a basis for giving you advice on how to handle it.
If you are going to do the procedure that Jack's Tech Support suggested, you should do it the way they told you to do it and not try to second guess what is going on and make changes to the procedure. Hopefully you gave them enough information that they have some idea what is actually going on.
JasonLion,
I spoke again early this morning and then later with Jack's Tech, who actually relayed the information as I was on the phone to Jack himself. The upshot was as follows.
Copper: I explained that for 6 years 1994 to 2000, I had a Nature 2 and not knowing anything about pools maintained my pH at around the recommended ppms that were commonly put out by the pool shops, pH 7.6-7.8, Alkalinity 80, Hardness about 300-400, CyA of 30-35, and because of the Nature 2, FC at around 2-3, I had no salt generator, nor pool cover at this time. I felt therefore that I might have copper staining. They to thought that there was a high probability of copper staining.
Iron: I explained our "Trade Winds" that blow near constantly at 16 to 24 mph with gusts up to 40 mph, where I live, on a mountain at an elevation of about 1000 ft, the mountain is 2400+ ft. I explained what we call "Red Dirt" here in Hawaii settling finely on the pool daily where we live due to these winds, and because new construction has been occurring above our home exposing the "Red Dirt" soil from 1994 to 2006. The house had to be re-painted after 10 years, despite my washing it down with a hose, nearly every Sunday. For interests sake I discovered that not only does it contain large amounts of iron, but I am told also copper, and manganese, but not nearly as much as the iron. Also behind our mountain facing north is one of the island of Oahu's primary agricultural areas, the soil is often exposed and blows up and over the mountain.
The neighbor above us actually sued and won a court case concerning the discoloration and contamination of his pool due to lack of screening by a contractor. I did not participate in the litigation. The "Red Dirt" still settles daily but due to the lack of construction it is nowhere near as bad as prior to 2006. This is why I had to treat with Ascorbic Acid (AA) treatment, at least once a year, once I found out from a web site similar to yours that there was a way to remove the brown tinge from the pool. It still returns, and the stains re-occur. I did use sequestrant but it was not Jack's Magic stuff, or Proteams, unfortunately they were not as effective as those two so the stains finally came back, albeit slower. Jack's Tech team concurred there was near certain probability that I had iron staining.
Organic Stains: Because of the trade winds blowing soil dust over the over the mountain from a northerly to southerly direction, we being located in the southerly direction, there is a high probability that this dust contained organic material, which contains iron as well, especially in tannin. Add to this that we had a large tree, that dropped small leaves daily, only a few feet away from the pool and the fact that I was working so many hours that I only had one, sometimes two days a week to give the pool a proper check at that time, this to contributed to organic material settling onto the gunite. Jack's Tech concurred that that to most probably meant that we had organic Stains.
Scale: As regards this I know I had scale because I drained the pool nearly every 12 months and could see it clearly, but was loath to acid wash it again, due to the potential damage everyone writes about. I think I did wash it, rather poorly in 2004. Based on what I explained to Jack's Tech they to thought there was scale especially as it was visible when drained.
I did ask Jack's Tech if this situation where all four factors occurred at once happened often. The reply was no, but it did occur 10% of the time, in their experience.
I informed them that the treatment seemed to have run its course, and that no further improvement seemed to be occurring. The Tech consulted with Jack while I was on the phone, I could hear them discussing the issue of the minor stains. They suggested the following final treatment that should solve the issue. The suggestion was to add 5 lbs of "O2 Safe Shock", leave for 20 minutes, then add 3 gallons of Muriatic acid (yes 3 gallons that was not a typo), then bring the sequestrant up to shock levels of 18-20 ppm. Leave this in the pool for 48 hours with pump running continuously. They stated the "O2 Safe Shock" would further oxidize the stains raising them to near the surface where they could more easily be removed by the sequestrant working in conjunction with a very low pH.
Well I will have to wait 2 days to see if it works.
I must say I was rather surprised by your reply of "nil", my business deals in probability and the word "nil" or a definitive "zero probability" sends tingles down my and my partners spines when mentioned, as we are aware that one of the lowest probabilities is 3 "Standard Deviations" and this occurs only 2.1% of the time, in most cases We use these numbers to guide our clients in to making the correct choices, the higher the probability, one "Standard Deviation" the greater the likelihood of success, but also the return on invested capital is not normally above the norm. The greater the "Standard Deviation", 2 or 3, the less probable but with greater chances of loss or gain.
We keep ourselves in check by having in our notebooks two quotes that constantly remind us of being tempted by the propositions made to us of zero probability of something occurring. The first is from Mark Twain, "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.†And the other by Voltaire, "Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." By constantly being reminded to avoid these temptations, we have managed to avoid overly large losses, and/or risks for our clients. But to be honest about it we to have been often tempted to the probability of zero, but then we deal in probabilities daily so know better after all these years. The 10% chance of the pool having all these conditions met lies within statistical probability albeit at a rarer 2 "Standard Deviations."
I think my own personal mistake was not to have gotten Jack's Test Kit first, and then I would know for sure that all four conditions were met even though Jack's Tech thinks so. It is quite possible you are correct that one of the conditions, possibly two, did not exist. But as the saying goes "All's well that ends well", for this I thank you for getting me to really thoroughly think this through, and to not be so "certain" about my own conjectures, also to force me follow the expert Jack's advice, certainly I would never have added 3 gallons of acid unless I heard it straight from the "Horse's Mouth". So please forgive me my arrogance, I deserved to fall.
As no person has yet answered my questions I will answer them below as best I can with the help of Jack's Tech for those that may be interested.
Question: Jack's Tech Support suggested that if I plan to drain the pool, that I rebalance the water when filled, but prior to adding chlorine or salt, I should add 5 lbs of their O2 Non-Chlorine shock and wait 30 minutes, skimming of any dirt that floats to the service. As Jack's Magic contains sulfates would it not be better to add this prior to draining the pool?
Answer: The Jack’s Tech stated that their O2 Safe Shock will work fine with salt and chlorine. Added to pool prior to drain. Forgot to ask if it adds sulfates.
Question: Will the chlorine shock I am planning on doing tonight help the organic/tannin stain issue?
Answer: From my observation it will not make much of a difference, but did eat up some sequestrant
Question: Is the Non-Organic shock better for organic/tannin stains than a chlorine shock?
Answer: Jack’s Tech stated O2 Safe Shock, will work much faster than chlorine at oxidizing and lifting stains to the surface where they can be removed by the sequestrant and presumably the low pH created by adding 3 gallons of muriatic acid in my 10,000 gallon pool.
Question: Will chlorine and salt in the pool interfere with non-chlorine shock?
Answer: Jack’s Tech stated no.
Question: If non-chlorine shock is used would I need to add a lot of chlorine after its use?
Answer: I forgot to ask but will check later.
Question: Would the 3M drill attachment be less invasive than an acid wash?
Answer: May not have to use it after this final treatment but will advise if I do.
I spoke again early this morning and then later with Jack's Tech, who actually relayed the information as I was on the phone to Jack himself. The upshot was as follows.
Copper: I explained that for 6 years 1994 to 2000, I had a Nature 2 and not knowing anything about pools maintained my pH at around the recommended ppms that were commonly put out by the pool shops, pH 7.6-7.8, Alkalinity 80, Hardness about 300-400, CyA of 30-35, and because of the Nature 2, FC at around 2-3, I had no salt generator, nor pool cover at this time. I felt therefore that I might have copper staining. They to thought that there was a high probability of copper staining.
Iron: I explained our "Trade Winds" that blow near constantly at 16 to 24 mph with gusts up to 40 mph, where I live, on a mountain at an elevation of about 1000 ft, the mountain is 2400+ ft. I explained what we call "Red Dirt" here in Hawaii settling finely on the pool daily where we live due to these winds, and because new construction has been occurring above our home exposing the "Red Dirt" soil from 1994 to 2006. The house had to be re-painted after 10 years, despite my washing it down with a hose, nearly every Sunday. For interests sake I discovered that not only does it contain large amounts of iron, but I am told also copper, and manganese, but not nearly as much as the iron. Also behind our mountain facing north is one of the island of Oahu's primary agricultural areas, the soil is often exposed and blows up and over the mountain.
The neighbor above us actually sued and won a court case concerning the discoloration and contamination of his pool due to lack of screening by a contractor. I did not participate in the litigation. The "Red Dirt" still settles daily but due to the lack of construction it is nowhere near as bad as prior to 2006. This is why I had to treat with Ascorbic Acid (AA) treatment, at least once a year, once I found out from a web site similar to yours that there was a way to remove the brown tinge from the pool. It still returns, and the stains re-occur. I did use sequestrant but it was not Jack's Magic stuff, or Proteams, unfortunately they were not as effective as those two so the stains finally came back, albeit slower. Jack's Tech team concurred there was near certain probability that I had iron staining.
Organic Stains: Because of the trade winds blowing soil dust over the over the mountain from a northerly to southerly direction, we being located in the southerly direction, there is a high probability that this dust contained organic material, which contains iron as well, especially in tannin. Add to this that we had a large tree, that dropped small leaves daily, only a few feet away from the pool and the fact that I was working so many hours that I only had one, sometimes two days a week to give the pool a proper check at that time, this to contributed to organic material settling onto the gunite. Jack's Tech concurred that that to most probably meant that we had organic Stains.
Scale: As regards this I know I had scale because I drained the pool nearly every 12 months and could see it clearly, but was loath to acid wash it again, due to the potential damage everyone writes about. I think I did wash it, rather poorly in 2004. Based on what I explained to Jack's Tech they to thought there was scale especially as it was visible when drained.
I did ask Jack's Tech if this situation where all four factors occurred at once happened often. The reply was no, but it did occur 10% of the time, in their experience.
I informed them that the treatment seemed to have run its course, and that no further improvement seemed to be occurring. The Tech consulted with Jack while I was on the phone, I could hear them discussing the issue of the minor stains. They suggested the following final treatment that should solve the issue. The suggestion was to add 5 lbs of "O2 Safe Shock", leave for 20 minutes, then add 3 gallons of Muriatic acid (yes 3 gallons that was not a typo), then bring the sequestrant up to shock levels of 18-20 ppm. Leave this in the pool for 48 hours with pump running continuously. They stated the "O2 Safe Shock" would further oxidize the stains raising them to near the surface where they could more easily be removed by the sequestrant working in conjunction with a very low pH.
Well I will have to wait 2 days to see if it works.
I must say I was rather surprised by your reply of "nil", my business deals in probability and the word "nil" or a definitive "zero probability" sends tingles down my and my partners spines when mentioned, as we are aware that one of the lowest probabilities is 3 "Standard Deviations" and this occurs only 2.1% of the time, in most cases We use these numbers to guide our clients in to making the correct choices, the higher the probability, one "Standard Deviation" the greater the likelihood of success, but also the return on invested capital is not normally above the norm. The greater the "Standard Deviation", 2 or 3, the less probable but with greater chances of loss or gain.
We keep ourselves in check by having in our notebooks two quotes that constantly remind us of being tempted by the propositions made to us of zero probability of something occurring. The first is from Mark Twain, "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.†And the other by Voltaire, "Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." By constantly being reminded to avoid these temptations, we have managed to avoid overly large losses, and/or risks for our clients. But to be honest about it we to have been often tempted to the probability of zero, but then we deal in probabilities daily so know better after all these years. The 10% chance of the pool having all these conditions met lies within statistical probability albeit at a rarer 2 "Standard Deviations."
I think my own personal mistake was not to have gotten Jack's Test Kit first, and then I would know for sure that all four conditions were met even though Jack's Tech thinks so. It is quite possible you are correct that one of the conditions, possibly two, did not exist. But as the saying goes "All's well that ends well", for this I thank you for getting me to really thoroughly think this through, and to not be so "certain" about my own conjectures, also to force me follow the expert Jack's advice, certainly I would never have added 3 gallons of acid unless I heard it straight from the "Horse's Mouth". So please forgive me my arrogance, I deserved to fall.
As no person has yet answered my questions I will answer them below as best I can with the help of Jack's Tech for those that may be interested.
Question: Jack's Tech Support suggested that if I plan to drain the pool, that I rebalance the water when filled, but prior to adding chlorine or salt, I should add 5 lbs of their O2 Non-Chlorine shock and wait 30 minutes, skimming of any dirt that floats to the service. As Jack's Magic contains sulfates would it not be better to add this prior to draining the pool?
Answer: The Jack’s Tech stated that their O2 Safe Shock will work fine with salt and chlorine. Added to pool prior to drain. Forgot to ask if it adds sulfates.
Question: Will the chlorine shock I am planning on doing tonight help the organic/tannin stain issue?
Answer: From my observation it will not make much of a difference, but did eat up some sequestrant
Question: Is the Non-Organic shock better for organic/tannin stains than a chlorine shock?
Answer: Jack’s Tech stated O2 Safe Shock, will work much faster than chlorine at oxidizing and lifting stains to the surface where they can be removed by the sequestrant and presumably the low pH created by adding 3 gallons of muriatic acid in my 10,000 gallon pool.
Question: Will chlorine and salt in the pool interfere with non-chlorine shock?
Answer: Jack’s Tech stated no.
Question: If non-chlorine shock is used would I need to add a lot of chlorine after its use?
Answer: I forgot to ask but will check later.
Question: Would the 3M drill attachment be less invasive than an acid wash?
Answer: May not have to use it after this final treatment but will advise if I do.
Vitamin C tablet turns yellow stain black
I put this in a separate post so that anyone not interested in the below post can save time and not be bored.
Merged back into your existing topic. Please keep everything on one topic together in a single place. JasonLion
This relates to my process for removing all possible stains from my pool here:
http://www.troublefreepool.com/copper-stains-and-re-occuring-iron-stains-t24879-20.html
I am just about to raise the alkalinity and pH of the water after the final process mentioned in the above post. Last night I raised the FC to 5 ppm which because of the very low pH put it into shock mode. I got caught in a late night meeting and when I came home I forgot to turn down the salt generator production. In the morning there were stains all over the pool mostly brown. Presumably, as Jack's Tech stated, this occurred because they were raised to the surface by oxidation. He told me to scrub with a stainless steel brush which I did and sure enough the stains lifted and are being filtered out. One stain area which is different is bright yellow/orange in appearance did not bush away, this stain is located at the highest step directly in front of the return nozzle stretching back about 2 to 3 feet on the step , presumably receiving high doses of chlorine from the SWG.
I put 4 Vitamin C tablets on one area of the stain, to see if these were iron, and the small area then promptly, within 5 minutes, turned nearly black. I quickly hit it with the stainless steel bush removing most but leaving a few tiny blackish stains. The area is now free of the yellow stain so I think they were iron or were they?
Can anyone diagnose why this stained area went black? I did searches but I found nothing.
Thank you.
I put this in a separate post so that anyone not interested in the below post can save time and not be bored.
Merged back into your existing topic. Please keep everything on one topic together in a single place. JasonLion
This relates to my process for removing all possible stains from my pool here:
http://www.troublefreepool.com/copper-stains-and-re-occuring-iron-stains-t24879-20.html
I am just about to raise the alkalinity and pH of the water after the final process mentioned in the above post. Last night I raised the FC to 5 ppm which because of the very low pH put it into shock mode. I got caught in a late night meeting and when I came home I forgot to turn down the salt generator production. In the morning there were stains all over the pool mostly brown. Presumably, as Jack's Tech stated, this occurred because they were raised to the surface by oxidation. He told me to scrub with a stainless steel brush which I did and sure enough the stains lifted and are being filtered out. One stain area which is different is bright yellow/orange in appearance did not bush away, this stain is located at the highest step directly in front of the return nozzle stretching back about 2 to 3 feet on the step , presumably receiving high doses of chlorine from the SWG.
I put 4 Vitamin C tablets on one area of the stain, to see if these were iron, and the small area then promptly, within 5 minutes, turned nearly black. I quickly hit it with the stainless steel bush removing most but leaving a few tiny blackish stains. The area is now free of the yellow stain so I think they were iron or were they?
Can anyone diagnose why this stained area went black? I did searches but I found nothing.
Thank you.
That is curious. Copper stains can turn black when you use AA, but they would never start yellow/orange. Iron stains can be yellow/orange, but they would never turn black. Perhaps a mixture of copper and iron?
JasonLion,
Yes it was copper staining, tested with dry acid which lifted or removed the stain. I think when I accidently shocked the pool the copper had been sequestered and then chelated out to the filter, by shocking it was released back into the pool by the steps where the returned water is pumped out about 2" above the step. I must have had a lot of copper staining as I had already backwashed twice prior to this during the treatment. Well at least I know that Jack's stuff does sequester, and as they stated chelate.
I did finally drain the pool over the weekend. The scaling was nearly all gone with just a little left that can be treated by an in-pool acid wash. The long dark streaks on the walls which were there at the last time I had drained were also gone. There is still small amount of copper staining at the curve where the bottom meets the pool walls; I cannot hit that area very well with my wire brush.
For the two 18 ft long steps I used a finishing/smoothing concrete grinding attachment with a variable speed angle grinder set to 8800 rpm to remove scale which was grayish in color. I did not remove too much scale as I was in fear of getting through the finish, but enough to remove the colored top material, to make it smooth and white looking. Unfortunately again I could not reach where walls meet the steps as it is curved, but still a 95% improvement. The in-pool acid wash should take care of the rest.
The tiles which were tan in color above the water line and off white below were a challenge. It took four hours with a plug-in drill to remove the caked on dirt which was akin to a lacquer. I had to use the more aggressive 3M silicon carbide attachment, mentioned above as the one not to use, but it did not scratch the tile even though it did scratch a pane of glass.
All this muck and grinding, which was not blown away by the 20 mph trade winds, ended up in the pool which I swept way as best I could. I also shot down the pool with the hose. Then I refilled and it got stranger and stranger.
After refilling, I did not run the pool on filter but using the hose and wheelie suction tool ran it on waste first to remove bits of dust, etc. that had settled to the bottom. It took about 5 to 10 minutes before it ran clear. I then rebalanced as usual, the pool rebalanced to its normal numbers with the exception of salt, using both new strips and the Taylor salt kit the number came in at 5000! It should have been 3000. I thought I would let it settle overnight, as I guess, but do not know, that the scale that I removed must have had a lot of salt in it. The next morning it settled at 4400 and from there it would not budge. On the Pool Pilot SWG, the operator indicates the true salt content.
The other reason I knew I had too much salt in the pool was that bees were doing "Kamikaze" attacks on the pool. They like salt, this I found out a while back when the pool was overdosed with salt to a level of 6000 ppm, due to old chemicals and old test strips that read 2800 too high. Also the SWG was producing chlorine but no bubbles as it usually does, this happened last time when the salt was too high. While I did get a fair amount of bees it was not on the scale of "Okinawan" attacks I got at 6000 ppm. I have a lot of flowering plants around the pool, and so long as you are not wearing mid to dark brown they do not bother.
I decided to drain down to 3000 and all is now fine, and the SWG is happily bubbling away and the bees are no longer interested in the pool.
Jack's stuff really worked well, nay like "Magic", their tech support was the best I ever encountered, guiding me through, and telling me not to over-purchase their stuff. I cannot recommend them or the products I used enough.
Some comments, the sequestering/chelating stuff works fantastically well but one is going to use, depending on the condition of the pool, a lot more than you think. One has to use the sequester test kit otherwise you may not have enough sequestrant in the pool to do the job. I used a lot of sequestrant; my pool ate through this stuff like it was a chocolate chip cookies treat. Since the 2nd re-balance it is using very little.
Jack's sequestrant test kit is partially made by LaMotte; this is the only, in my opinion, weak link. It is hard to tell exactly when all the tube turns to purple; I think that a Taylor test kit might be better as the amount of sequestrant is known when the drop changes the color, but I do have to call them and see if it will work with Jack's sequestrant.
The pool looks 98% better; most of the copper staining is gone, there is no more iron, the scaling is greatly reduced, and as to organic stains I am not sure if I had them but a puck did lighten the steps to white where I left it. I think only I or a really experienced pool person can still see the issues that still need to be addressed, but those hopefully will be taken care of by holding the pool at a CSI of -0.50 (very mild acid wash).
Oh it passed the most important test of all "The Grandma" or "Great Grandma" test depending on your age, no longer do I get the long looks and the son-in-law "Hms", now I get "Oh your pool looks so nice, so clean". And without saying it she gives me that look of "And keep it that way".
Jack's Tech said the trick to keeping metals out, apart from using their sequestrant, was to maintain the pH at 7.2, the calcium at between 200 and 400, and not to shock if one can avoid it. If one does shock get out the stainless steel brush to brush the stains off until they are gone, and increase the sequestrant to 18 ppm to 20 ppm.
Here are the target numbers I am now using for 10,000 gal pool:
Pentair 3/4 hp Whisperflo High Effieciency Pump delivering 55 gallons per minute
Runtime 6 hours, may cut to 5 hours
Pool Pilot SWG SC-60 Number 2 Power Setting at 43% delivering 2 ppm in 6 hours, if 5 hours then 53%.
FC 3.5
pH 7.2 (Pool has automatic acid feeder)
TA 70
CH 400
CyA 30 (The pool is only 4'6" deep at at its deepest point so higher CyA is unnecessary)
Salt 3000
Temp 80
CSI -0.50
On a final note when I bought the O2 Safe Shock from a store that I normally do not visit, in there was a little old lady who did her own pool. She told the "Pool Man" that she wanted to use liquid chlorine/bleach as tabs were now beyond her budget. He told her that bleach was not chlorine, was unsafe for pools, and illegal under federal guidelines, and that she (and I suppose all the other Grandmas) if caught could be arrested by federal agents for endangering the public. And that she should contine buying chlorine tabs from pool stores. Her CyA was way past 100, her pH was way higher than 8.0, the other numbers I did not hear. He told her that so long as the pool looked OK and she did not get sick from swimming in it, she was OK. She had a bad rash on her arm which he, the doctor "Pool Man", put down to sunburn! I used to believe these guys, until I found websites such as this. They really need to be regulated.
Hope this helps.
Yes it was copper staining, tested with dry acid which lifted or removed the stain. I think when I accidently shocked the pool the copper had been sequestered and then chelated out to the filter, by shocking it was released back into the pool by the steps where the returned water is pumped out about 2" above the step. I must have had a lot of copper staining as I had already backwashed twice prior to this during the treatment. Well at least I know that Jack's stuff does sequester, and as they stated chelate.
I did finally drain the pool over the weekend. The scaling was nearly all gone with just a little left that can be treated by an in-pool acid wash. The long dark streaks on the walls which were there at the last time I had drained were also gone. There is still small amount of copper staining at the curve where the bottom meets the pool walls; I cannot hit that area very well with my wire brush.
For the two 18 ft long steps I used a finishing/smoothing concrete grinding attachment with a variable speed angle grinder set to 8800 rpm to remove scale which was grayish in color. I did not remove too much scale as I was in fear of getting through the finish, but enough to remove the colored top material, to make it smooth and white looking. Unfortunately again I could not reach where walls meet the steps as it is curved, but still a 95% improvement. The in-pool acid wash should take care of the rest.
The tiles which were tan in color above the water line and off white below were a challenge. It took four hours with a plug-in drill to remove the caked on dirt which was akin to a lacquer. I had to use the more aggressive 3M silicon carbide attachment, mentioned above as the one not to use, but it did not scratch the tile even though it did scratch a pane of glass.
All this muck and grinding, which was not blown away by the 20 mph trade winds, ended up in the pool which I swept way as best I could. I also shot down the pool with the hose. Then I refilled and it got stranger and stranger.
After refilling, I did not run the pool on filter but using the hose and wheelie suction tool ran it on waste first to remove bits of dust, etc. that had settled to the bottom. It took about 5 to 10 minutes before it ran clear. I then rebalanced as usual, the pool rebalanced to its normal numbers with the exception of salt, using both new strips and the Taylor salt kit the number came in at 5000! It should have been 3000. I thought I would let it settle overnight, as I guess, but do not know, that the scale that I removed must have had a lot of salt in it. The next morning it settled at 4400 and from there it would not budge. On the Pool Pilot SWG, the operator indicates the true salt content.
The other reason I knew I had too much salt in the pool was that bees were doing "Kamikaze" attacks on the pool. They like salt, this I found out a while back when the pool was overdosed with salt to a level of 6000 ppm, due to old chemicals and old test strips that read 2800 too high. Also the SWG was producing chlorine but no bubbles as it usually does, this happened last time when the salt was too high. While I did get a fair amount of bees it was not on the scale of "Okinawan" attacks I got at 6000 ppm. I have a lot of flowering plants around the pool, and so long as you are not wearing mid to dark brown they do not bother.
I decided to drain down to 3000 and all is now fine, and the SWG is happily bubbling away and the bees are no longer interested in the pool.
Jack's stuff really worked well, nay like "Magic", their tech support was the best I ever encountered, guiding me through, and telling me not to over-purchase their stuff. I cannot recommend them or the products I used enough.
Some comments, the sequestering/chelating stuff works fantastically well but one is going to use, depending on the condition of the pool, a lot more than you think. One has to use the sequester test kit otherwise you may not have enough sequestrant in the pool to do the job. I used a lot of sequestrant; my pool ate through this stuff like it was a chocolate chip cookies treat. Since the 2nd re-balance it is using very little.
Jack's sequestrant test kit is partially made by LaMotte; this is the only, in my opinion, weak link. It is hard to tell exactly when all the tube turns to purple; I think that a Taylor test kit might be better as the amount of sequestrant is known when the drop changes the color, but I do have to call them and see if it will work with Jack's sequestrant.
The pool looks 98% better; most of the copper staining is gone, there is no more iron, the scaling is greatly reduced, and as to organic stains I am not sure if I had them but a puck did lighten the steps to white where I left it. I think only I or a really experienced pool person can still see the issues that still need to be addressed, but those hopefully will be taken care of by holding the pool at a CSI of -0.50 (very mild acid wash).
Oh it passed the most important test of all "The Grandma" or "Great Grandma" test depending on your age, no longer do I get the long looks and the son-in-law "Hms", now I get "Oh your pool looks so nice, so clean". And without saying it she gives me that look of "And keep it that way".
Jack's Tech said the trick to keeping metals out, apart from using their sequestrant, was to maintain the pH at 7.2, the calcium at between 200 and 400, and not to shock if one can avoid it. If one does shock get out the stainless steel brush to brush the stains off until they are gone, and increase the sequestrant to 18 ppm to 20 ppm.
Here are the target numbers I am now using for 10,000 gal pool:
Pentair 3/4 hp Whisperflo High Effieciency Pump delivering 55 gallons per minute
Runtime 6 hours, may cut to 5 hours
Pool Pilot SWG SC-60 Number 2 Power Setting at 43% delivering 2 ppm in 6 hours, if 5 hours then 53%.
FC 3.5
pH 7.2 (Pool has automatic acid feeder)
TA 70
CH 400
CyA 30 (The pool is only 4'6" deep at at its deepest point so higher CyA is unnecessary)
Salt 3000
Temp 80
CSI -0.50
On a final note when I bought the O2 Safe Shock from a store that I normally do not visit, in there was a little old lady who did her own pool. She told the "Pool Man" that she wanted to use liquid chlorine/bleach as tabs were now beyond her budget. He told her that bleach was not chlorine, was unsafe for pools, and illegal under federal guidelines, and that she (and I suppose all the other Grandmas) if caught could be arrested by federal agents for endangering the public. And that she should contine buying chlorine tabs from pool stores. Her CyA was way past 100, her pH was way higher than 8.0, the other numbers I did not hear. He told her that so long as the pool looked OK and she did not get sick from swimming in it, she was OK. She had a bad rash on her arm which he, the doctor "Pool Man", put down to sunburn! I used to believe these guys, until I found websites such as this. They really need to be regulated.
Hope this helps.