blind faith and this forum?
- Thread starter jt100
- Start date
haha missed that. I thought he mispelled thirdly. haha. I do want to thank everyone though.whoozer said:
"Hi, my name is FPM and I'm using Trichlor".... 
Here's my story - as brief as I can make it. For my first 5 years of pool ownership, I blindly followed the pool store. After all, this is what they do. They should be the ones who have the know-how and the information to help me, right?
I can't begin to tell you how many times I tried my hardest to get answers from them, answers that made sense. They didn't give me that - they gave me the company line. They sold me chems I didn't need that NEVER fixed the issues I was having. When one product didn't work, they threw another one at me....my skepticism began to grow. I asked more and more questions, and something didn't smell right.
When every single one of their expensive products didn't work, they said I'd have to replace my liner. I've got countless PERSONAL stories of pool store experiences that left me exceptionally frustrated (not to mention broke, regretting the pool purchase in the first place).
Thousands of dollars later, with a stained pool with green-haired red-eyed kids, cloudy water and pink algae bacteria..... I left the nearby pool stealer, tears literally streaming down my face as they had taken several hundred dollars from me in two short weeks....because of their "knowledge". Hah. Came home, Google was my friend. Led me to Pool Forum, saw a post there from Sean, the original owner of TFP, and it led me here.
Dave, Evan, Jason and Joyce (I'm sure there were others) held my virtual hand and fixed (via the computer) EVERY single issue I had been having with my pool. In the span of 2 months, every issue I'd had for 5 years was corrected. I was an instant believer, proof is in the pudding.
I used to spend hundreds of dollars each summer on chems, I spend less than $75 on simple bleach each summer and for two summers that was all I needed to maintain balanced water and a crystal clear pool.
I experimented a bit this year going a different route, trichlor in a floater. I had vowed before to never use it again.... but I had my reasons for wanting to go this route.
It's working out fine, because I KNOW what I'm putting in my pool and the effect it has. It's certainly more expensive than BBB. I have already spent almost $60 on tablets and Borax. :? So it was a refresher for me in why BBB is better and why I follow TFP Methods and am no longer afraid to preach it to my friends (many by the way used to scoff at my adding bleach).
I've now converted several family and friends because they see how well it works for me.
And now it's working for them....
So I guess one could view it as blindly following, but for me it was the simple fact that they had the very basic explanations that I was looking for and their advice worked...something I never got despite numerous trips to the pool store from one single pool store employee or product manufacturer (yep talked to them too).
I'm a believer, and I stayed with this forum so I can "pay it forward" and help others like they helped me.
By the way, the role of Mod is not so much one of being an "expert" and answering questions but mainly one of keeping the forum operating smoothly, friendly and appropriately... (think of us as the 'Po-Po' of TFP :lol: ) We have gained alot of knowledge from hanging around so much...that's just a side benefit
Here's my story - as brief as I can make it. For my first 5 years of pool ownership, I blindly followed the pool store. After all, this is what they do. They should be the ones who have the know-how and the information to help me, right?
I can't begin to tell you how many times I tried my hardest to get answers from them, answers that made sense. They didn't give me that - they gave me the company line. They sold me chems I didn't need that NEVER fixed the issues I was having. When one product didn't work, they threw another one at me....my skepticism began to grow. I asked more and more questions, and something didn't smell right.
When every single one of their expensive products didn't work, they said I'd have to replace my liner. I've got countless PERSONAL stories of pool store experiences that left me exceptionally frustrated (not to mention broke, regretting the pool purchase in the first place).
Thousands of dollars later, with a stained pool with green-haired red-eyed kids, cloudy water and pink algae bacteria..... I left the nearby pool stealer, tears literally streaming down my face as they had taken several hundred dollars from me in two short weeks....because of their "knowledge". Hah. Came home, Google was my friend. Led me to Pool Forum, saw a post there from Sean, the original owner of TFP, and it led me here.
Dave, Evan, Jason and Joyce (I'm sure there were others) held my virtual hand and fixed (via the computer) EVERY single issue I had been having with my pool. In the span of 2 months, every issue I'd had for 5 years was corrected. I was an instant believer, proof is in the pudding.
I used to spend hundreds of dollars each summer on chems, I spend less than $75 on simple bleach each summer and for two summers that was all I needed to maintain balanced water and a crystal clear pool.
I experimented a bit this year going a different route, trichlor in a floater. I had vowed before to never use it again.... but I had my reasons for wanting to go this route.
It's working out fine, because I KNOW what I'm putting in my pool and the effect it has. It's certainly more expensive than BBB. I have already spent almost $60 on tablets and Borax. :? So it was a refresher for me in why BBB is better and why I follow TFP Methods and am no longer afraid to preach it to my friends (many by the way used to scoff at my adding bleach).
I've now converted several family and friends because they see how well it works for me.
And now it's working for them....So I guess one could view it as blindly following, but for me it was the simple fact that they had the very basic explanations that I was looking for and their advice worked...something I never got despite numerous trips to the pool store from one single pool store employee or product manufacturer (yep talked to them too).
I'm a believer, and I stayed with this forum so I can "pay it forward" and help others like they helped me.
By the way, the role of Mod is not so much one of being an "expert" and answering questions but mainly one of keeping the forum operating smoothly, friendly and appropriately... (think of us as the 'Po-Po' of TFP :lol: ) We have gained alot of knowledge from hanging around so much...that's just a side benefit
Well, technically, we do recommend having the chlorine stabilized - the chlorine in the POOL. We advocate the use of CYA as a chlorine stabilizer, as it keeps sunlight/UV from eradicating all the chlorine from your pool. We simply recommend not letting it get too high, in which case it tends to interfere with and ultimately mitigate the chlorine's ability to do its' job.
It's the SOURCE of the chlorine which seems to be in debate here - whether or not to use a form of chlorine which constantly adds more stabilizer. If you choose to use trichlor tabs knowing that your stabilizer level is going to rise and rise, it is entirely your call. If you can make it work in your particular situation, so much the better for you. In most cases, however, this method of operation becomes problematic over time, and requires some additional remediation.
I would assume that if you have ultimately some issue with "chlorine lock" you'll know what to do...
re blindly... I'll try to give an example. Some chemicals from Walmart, grocery stores, paint stores etc are said to be identical to those sold by pool stores. I see an active ingredient X that says 10% and 90% inert ingredients. It's the inert ingredients that concern me. By inert does that mean "non toxic"? What do inert ingredients usually consist of? water? salt? I'm not a chemist so i have no idea. I doubt the chemical companies make different batches of the same chemical for different uses. Then again maybe they do? I have no idea. I'm just basing my experience on what I've been told here. I am also a home brewer. Long story short, it is common to use paint ball gun mini CO2 cartridges to help carbonate beer. It is also common knowledge among brewers that the CO2 is clean and contains no chemicals or additives. I told this to a friend who was an engineer for a company that made these cartridges. He wouldn't drink the beer. He said the CO2 was clean but there were all kinds of carcinogens used in the processing and manufacture of the cartridges themselves. None of which was ever washed away. My point is, it's not the ingredients that i know that concern me, it's the ingredients that i don't know that concern me a little.duraleigh said:
Regarding the chemicals... google "msds your-product-name-here" and you'll probably find the Material Safety Data Sheet, which is supposed to describe everything "hazardous" in a given product. For example "msds 20 mule team borax" got me this PDF.
But as for the stuff I buy... dry acid is 100% sodium bisulfate. Dichlor is 100% sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione. Muriatic acid is HCl and water. Borax is borax. Bleach is more complicated, but chemically equivalent to liquid chlorine, and there are people around who understand enough of the manufacturing process and related chemistry that I am willing to have one-eyed faith that bleach does nothing bad to the pool, or my kids.
--paulr
But as for the stuff I buy... dry acid is 100% sodium bisulfate. Dichlor is 100% sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione. Muriatic acid is HCl and water. Borax is borax. Bleach is more complicated, but chemically equivalent to liquid chlorine, and there are people around who understand enough of the manufacturing process and related chemistry that I am willing to have one-eyed faith that bleach does nothing bad to the pool, or my kids.
--paulr
Baking soda is used in food, obviously safe. Arm and Hammer baking soda is listed by Arm and Hammer as suitable for pool use (look at the labeling on the 4 lb boxes and 12 lb bags). Other brands are equivalent though I can't prove that. Clorox bleach is listed by Clorox as suitable for use in swimming pools. Other brands are equivalent, though I can't prove that.
Why do you trust the pool store?
Why do you trust the pool store?
(I wrote this while Jason posted above; some duplicate info here)
Bleach and Chlorinating Liquid
Let's take bleach and chlorinating liquid, for example. 6% bleach is 6% sodium hypochlorite by weight and is 4.7% sodium chloride salt. [EDIT] For 8.25% bleach there is 8.25% sodium hypochlorite by weight and 6.5% sodium chloride salt. For 12.5% chlorinating liquid (where 12.5% is Trade %, not weight %) this is (assuming 1.16 g/ml density) 10.8% sodium hypochlorite by weight and 8.5% salt. [END-EDIT] This relationship comes from the manufacturing process (called "chlor-alkali") which creates chlorine gas and sodium hydroxide via electrolysis and then adds the chlorine gas to (purer) water containing sodium hydroxide. This is done in two steps as described in order to reduce the amount of salt in the water since the water used for initial electrolysis has very high salt content.
Cl2(g) + 2NaOH ---> NaOCl + NaCl + H2O
Chlorine Gas + Sodium Hydroxide ---> Sodium Hypochlorite + Sodium Chloride + Water
There is some excess sodium hydroxide (lye / caustic soda) leftover from the above process that varies by brand with Clorox Regular having around 0.063% by weight (using a pH of 11.9). Clorox adds a small amount of sodium polyacrylate (a polymer that prevents minerals in wash water from reacting with chlorine and yellowing the clothes) in an amount that they do not disclose but is probably very small by weight. The rest (88.7% for 6% bleach) is water. See this link for info on Clorox Regular bleach.
Other brands of bleach often have more excess lye in them with some having a pH of 12.5 implying 0.25% by weight of sodium hydroxide. Other than this difference (and some bleaches not having sodium polyacrylate), they are all the same. There are also weaker bleaches where most off-brand Ultra bleaches are 6% but off-brand Regular are 3% or less. Bleach and chlorinating liquid are the same except for strength and differences in the amount of excess lye.
[EDIT] You do not want to use scented bleaches or specialty bleaches such as Clorox® Outdoor Bleach or Clorox® Splash-Less™ Bleach which have thickeners in it. [END-EDIT]
If you look at a bottle of 6% Clorox Regular unscented bleach, you will notice that it says "5.7% Available Chlorine" on the bottle in addition to the ingredients of "6% Sodium Hypochlorite". [EDIT] For 8.25% Clorox Regular Concentrated Bleach it says "Yields 7.85% Available Chlorine" on the bottle in addition to the ingredients of "Sodium Hypochlorite (8.25%)". [END-EDIT] This is because the product has been registered with the EPA not only as a pesticide, but has also been tested and approved for use in swimming pools. For 6% bleach, it has EPA registration number 5813-50 which is described in the PAN database and has this MSDS. [EDIT] For 8.25% bleach, it has EPA registration number 5813-100 which is described in the PAN database and has this MSDS. [END-EDIT] This process of testing and approval has little to do with the inert ingredients. It has to do with the efficacy of the product to kill bacteria as described in EPA DIS/TSS-12. You can read a bulletin from Clorox on the use of their bleaches in swimming pools on pages 2-3 of this document or pages 21-22 of this document.
Baking Soda vs. Alkalinity Up
As described in this link, "ARM & HAMMER® Baking Soda is 100% pure sodium bicarbonate." It is also used in baking so is ingested in food. If anything, it is of even higher purity and quality than an Alkalinity Up product, all of which are sodium bicarbonate.
Washing Soda vs. pH Up
As described in this link, "ARM & HAMMER® Super Washing Soda is 100% pure sodium carbonate." [EDIT] However, according to this MSDS (and this info as well), the product is >= 85% sodium carbonate and <= 15% water. [END-EDIT] Many pH Up products are 100% sodium carbonate, though some are sodium sesquicarbonate which is a double salt of sodium bicarbonate and sodium carbonate, while a few are sodium bicarbonate.
Borax vs. Borate products
As described in this link (click on the FAQ tab), "20 Mule Team® Borax is comprised of 99.5% pure borax, a naturally occurring mineral composed of sodium, boron, oxygen, and water. (The scientific name for borax is sodium tetraborate decahydrate.) The remaining 0.5% is composed of trace minerals."
Products such as ProTeam Supreme contain Sodium Tetraborate Pentahydrate which is the same as Borax except it contains less water (hydrates are chemicals that contain water including those in solid form in a crystal). ProTeam Supreme Plus and ProTeam Gentle Spa do not disclose their "Proprietary ingredient", but it is most surely Boric Acid given that the product overall has a pH of 6-8, that it increases borates, and that the product also contains some sodium tetraborate presumably to make the pH more neutral (boric acid is slightly acidic).
Muriatic Acid
This is diluted Hydrochloric Acid where full-strength is usually 31.45% (see this MSDS) and half-strength around 15%-16%. There is no difference between brands and the inert ingredient is water.
Calcium Chloride vs. Calcium Hardness Increaser
Dowflake is around 96% Calcium Chloride Dihydrate. This MSDS gives 77-80% Calcium Chloride, < 5% Sodium Chloride, 2-3% Potassium Chloride, 15-20% Water. This MSDS gives some slightly different composition for this product (a little more calcium chloride content with less water).
Peladow as described here is at least 91% Calcium Chloride Anhydrous with 4.5% Water, 2.5% Potassium Chloride, 1.5% Sodium Chloride. This MSDS gives some slightly different composition for this product.
Hopefully this gives you some idea of how there really is no significant difference between grocery or big-box store vs. pool store chemicals, at least for the common ones used above and how their inert ingredients are truly not a problem.
Richard
For some pool chemicals, there are some differences between brands including the generics, but usually that is not the case.jt100 said:
Bleach and Chlorinating Liquid
Let's take bleach and chlorinating liquid, for example. 6% bleach is 6% sodium hypochlorite by weight and is 4.7% sodium chloride salt. [EDIT] For 8.25% bleach there is 8.25% sodium hypochlorite by weight and 6.5% sodium chloride salt. For 12.5% chlorinating liquid (where 12.5% is Trade %, not weight %) this is (assuming 1.16 g/ml density) 10.8% sodium hypochlorite by weight and 8.5% salt. [END-EDIT] This relationship comes from the manufacturing process (called "chlor-alkali") which creates chlorine gas and sodium hydroxide via electrolysis and then adds the chlorine gas to (purer) water containing sodium hydroxide. This is done in two steps as described in order to reduce the amount of salt in the water since the water used for initial electrolysis has very high salt content.
Cl2(g) + 2NaOH ---> NaOCl + NaCl + H2O
Chlorine Gas + Sodium Hydroxide ---> Sodium Hypochlorite + Sodium Chloride + Water
There is some excess sodium hydroxide (lye / caustic soda) leftover from the above process that varies by brand with Clorox Regular having around 0.063% by weight (using a pH of 11.9). Clorox adds a small amount of sodium polyacrylate (a polymer that prevents minerals in wash water from reacting with chlorine and yellowing the clothes) in an amount that they do not disclose but is probably very small by weight. The rest (88.7% for 6% bleach) is water. See this link for info on Clorox Regular bleach.
Other brands of bleach often have more excess lye in them with some having a pH of 12.5 implying 0.25% by weight of sodium hydroxide. Other than this difference (and some bleaches not having sodium polyacrylate), they are all the same. There are also weaker bleaches where most off-brand Ultra bleaches are 6% but off-brand Regular are 3% or less. Bleach and chlorinating liquid are the same except for strength and differences in the amount of excess lye.
[EDIT] You do not want to use scented bleaches or specialty bleaches such as Clorox® Outdoor Bleach or Clorox® Splash-Less™ Bleach which have thickeners in it. [END-EDIT]
If you look at a bottle of 6% Clorox Regular unscented bleach, you will notice that it says "5.7% Available Chlorine" on the bottle in addition to the ingredients of "6% Sodium Hypochlorite". [EDIT] For 8.25% Clorox Regular Concentrated Bleach it says "Yields 7.85% Available Chlorine" on the bottle in addition to the ingredients of "Sodium Hypochlorite (8.25%)". [END-EDIT] This is because the product has been registered with the EPA not only as a pesticide, but has also been tested and approved for use in swimming pools. For 6% bleach, it has EPA registration number 5813-50 which is described in the PAN database and has this MSDS. [EDIT] For 8.25% bleach, it has EPA registration number 5813-100 which is described in the PAN database and has this MSDS. [END-EDIT] This process of testing and approval has little to do with the inert ingredients. It has to do with the efficacy of the product to kill bacteria as described in EPA DIS/TSS-12. You can read a bulletin from Clorox on the use of their bleaches in swimming pools on pages 2-3 of this document or pages 21-22 of this document.
Baking Soda vs. Alkalinity Up
As described in this link, "ARM & HAMMER® Baking Soda is 100% pure sodium bicarbonate." It is also used in baking so is ingested in food. If anything, it is of even higher purity and quality than an Alkalinity Up product, all of which are sodium bicarbonate.
Washing Soda vs. pH Up
As described in this link, "ARM & HAMMER® Super Washing Soda is 100% pure sodium carbonate." [EDIT] However, according to this MSDS (and this info as well), the product is >= 85% sodium carbonate and <= 15% water. [END-EDIT] Many pH Up products are 100% sodium carbonate, though some are sodium sesquicarbonate which is a double salt of sodium bicarbonate and sodium carbonate, while a few are sodium bicarbonate.
Borax vs. Borate products
As described in this link (click on the FAQ tab), "20 Mule Team® Borax is comprised of 99.5% pure borax, a naturally occurring mineral composed of sodium, boron, oxygen, and water. (The scientific name for borax is sodium tetraborate decahydrate.) The remaining 0.5% is composed of trace minerals."
Products such as ProTeam Supreme contain Sodium Tetraborate Pentahydrate which is the same as Borax except it contains less water (hydrates are chemicals that contain water including those in solid form in a crystal). ProTeam Supreme Plus and ProTeam Gentle Spa do not disclose their "Proprietary ingredient", but it is most surely Boric Acid given that the product overall has a pH of 6-8, that it increases borates, and that the product also contains some sodium tetraborate presumably to make the pH more neutral (boric acid is slightly acidic).
Muriatic Acid
This is diluted Hydrochloric Acid where full-strength is usually 31.45% (see this MSDS) and half-strength around 15%-16%. There is no difference between brands and the inert ingredient is water.
Calcium Chloride vs. Calcium Hardness Increaser
Dowflake is around 96% Calcium Chloride Dihydrate. This MSDS gives 77-80% Calcium Chloride, < 5% Sodium Chloride, 2-3% Potassium Chloride, 15-20% Water. This MSDS gives some slightly different composition for this product (a little more calcium chloride content with less water).
Peladow as described here is at least 91% Calcium Chloride Anhydrous with 4.5% Water, 2.5% Potassium Chloride, 1.5% Sodium Chloride. This MSDS gives some slightly different composition for this product.
Hopefully this gives you some idea of how there really is no significant difference between grocery or big-box store vs. pool store chemicals, at least for the common ones used above and how their inert ingredients are truly not a problem.
Richard
Thanks you chemgeek. That is awesome! You answered a lot of questions i had.
Jason,
It's not really a matter of trusting them. I've been told by different people along the way not to use certain household items because they were manufactured differently than items sold at pool stores. I could never argue because i didn't know. I guess it's kind of like they were trying to tell me it was purified somehow or "made safer for human contact". (chemgeek has addressed this) As i said, i am totally new to pool ownership so i am pretty naive on a lot of this. I'm just now trying to educate myself and have been learning a lot along the way. I still have a long way to go though. I just find it incredible how much misinformation is out there. How is BBB perceived in the industry as a whole? Are these methods considered "crackpot" or "progressive"? Or aren't they even on the radar because it would cut into profits? I think i answered my own question.
Jason,
It's not really a matter of trusting them. I've been told by different people along the way not to use certain household items because they were manufactured differently than items sold at pool stores. I could never argue because i didn't know. I guess it's kind of like they were trying to tell me it was purified somehow or "made safer for human contact". (chemgeek has addressed this) As i said, i am totally new to pool ownership so i am pretty naive on a lot of this. I'm just now trying to educate myself and have been learning a lot along the way. I still have a long way to go though. I just find it incredible how much misinformation is out there. How is BBB perceived in the industry as a whole? Are these methods considered "crackpot" or "progressive"? Or aren't they even on the radar because it would cut into profits? I think i answered my own question.
BBB has transitioned from "crackpot" to "something some people do that isn't really mainstream" over the last several years. Ten years ago the "industry" mostly hadn't heard of BBB and if they had heard of it they tended to think it was crazy. Now nearly everyone in the industry has at least heard of it, with a fair number supporting it, a few still against it, and the great majority not really caring much either way. Watching bleach fly off the grocery store shelves in the spring, it seems that BBB must be pretty popular, but BBB is not quite at the point where it is really counted as mainstream.
The group most against BBB are the ones with the most to lose, which right now tends to be pool store sales people. When you purchase chemicals at the grocery store, they lose a sale. We hear some pretty wild stories about why BBB is "evil" from pool store sales people. Most of the time they are so wildly off base that there is no truth to them at all, though occasionally they will incorporate some disadvantage that could at least in theory apply. For example, if you pour bleach directly on the liner with the pump off there can be damage to the liner. Of course the same is true of the granular dichlor sold in pool stores.
The group most against BBB are the ones with the most to lose, which right now tends to be pool store sales people. When you purchase chemicals at the grocery store, they lose a sale. We hear some pretty wild stories about why BBB is "evil" from pool store sales people. Most of the time they are so wildly off base that there is no truth to them at all, though occasionally they will incorporate some disadvantage that could at least in theory apply. For example, if you pour bleach directly on the liner with the pump off there can be damage to the liner. Of course the same is true of the granular dichlor sold in pool stores.
(again, I wrote this as Jason wrote his so some duplicate info)
There is also an ANSI/APSP-11 standard for pool and spa water chemistry, mostly targeted for commercial/public pools, that did refer to the many scientific papers demonstrating chlorine's reduced killing times in the presence of Cyanuric Acid (CYA) and also mentioned how "some authorities or standards have suggested adjusting the required chlorine residual to the concentration of cynauric acid to compensate for the reduction in rates of kill." However, the chairman of the APSP-11 committee worked for Chemtura (who owns BioLab and has many brands) during the earlier stages on the committee, with the result that this recommendation was ignored and countered in the standard with "These studies are not fully comprehensive and applicability to real pools has not been demonstrated. Specifically, we do not have any empirical evidence that a disease outbreak has been linked to a particular cyanuric acid level in a properly sanitized pool (i.e. when at least 1 ppm free available chlorine was present in the pool)." These two arguments -- that the science doesn't apply to "real pools" and what I like to call the "well, nobody died" argument, are a consistent mantra in the industry along with "CYA doesn't matter; it only protects chlorine from sunlight". I address some of these falsehoods in the CPO thread (it is true that it takes a very low level of active chlorine to kill most pathogens, but it takes more to kill algae which is the primary issue in residential pools).
Also note that the EPA sets a maximum chlorine limit of 4 ppm in pools (5 ppm in spas) independent of the CYA level. This prevents any dosage recommendation on any chlorine product used for pools or spas from exceeding this limit. This is only a labeling requirement (FIFRA rules for pesticides) -- actual usage in commercial/public pools is regulated by local government (states, counties, cities). There is no regulation of what you do in your own residential pool. This 4 or 5 ppm FC limit is based on drinking water standards where the safety standard is based on drinking quarts of water every day. The standard does not take into account the fact that people do not drink pool water, but even considering skin absorption the standard does not consider the effect of CYA on the hypochlorous acid concentration nor the fact that CYA itself has minimal skin absorption (see this link) so chlorine bound to CYA is also very unlikely to be absorbed through the skin.
Richard
To most of those with the greatest economic interest in maintaining the status quo, they are a threat. To organizations or groups that try to be more independent, they are simply part of a "debate" or "controversy" in spite of their being founded on scientific principles, experiments, real-world results, etc. See Certified Pool Operator (CPO) training -- What is not taught for information about errors and omissions in the CPO course that I'm trying to improve.jt100 said:
There is also an ANSI/APSP-11 standard for pool and spa water chemistry, mostly targeted for commercial/public pools, that did refer to the many scientific papers demonstrating chlorine's reduced killing times in the presence of Cyanuric Acid (CYA) and also mentioned how "some authorities or standards have suggested adjusting the required chlorine residual to the concentration of cynauric acid to compensate for the reduction in rates of kill." However, the chairman of the APSP-11 committee worked for Chemtura (who owns BioLab and has many brands) during the earlier stages on the committee, with the result that this recommendation was ignored and countered in the standard with "These studies are not fully comprehensive and applicability to real pools has not been demonstrated. Specifically, we do not have any empirical evidence that a disease outbreak has been linked to a particular cyanuric acid level in a properly sanitized pool (i.e. when at least 1 ppm free available chlorine was present in the pool)." These two arguments -- that the science doesn't apply to "real pools" and what I like to call the "well, nobody died" argument, are a consistent mantra in the industry along with "CYA doesn't matter; it only protects chlorine from sunlight". I address some of these falsehoods in the CPO thread (it is true that it takes a very low level of active chlorine to kill most pathogens, but it takes more to kill algae which is the primary issue in residential pools).
Also note that the EPA sets a maximum chlorine limit of 4 ppm in pools (5 ppm in spas) independent of the CYA level. This prevents any dosage recommendation on any chlorine product used for pools or spas from exceeding this limit. This is only a labeling requirement (FIFRA rules for pesticides) -- actual usage in commercial/public pools is regulated by local government (states, counties, cities). There is no regulation of what you do in your own residential pool. This 4 or 5 ppm FC limit is based on drinking water standards where the safety standard is based on drinking quarts of water every day. The standard does not take into account the fact that people do not drink pool water, but even considering skin absorption the standard does not consider the effect of CYA on the hypochlorous acid concentration nor the fact that CYA itself has minimal skin absorption (see this link) so chlorine bound to CYA is also very unlikely to be absorbed through the skin.
Richard
jt100 said:
In an effort to determine what strength Walmart’s HTH cal-hypo is without leaving my house I ended up on HTH’s website last weekend. I was surprised to find that much of what they advocate follows- in a simplistic way- much of what is taught here about the cya/fc relationship.
Check out http://www.hthpools.com/ Click on the red pool care tab.
You’ll notice they recommend a CYA level of 20-25 ppm. They also recommend a chlorine range of 1-4 ppm.
Granted 20-25 ppm CYA doesn’t offer much sun protection, but it does correspond to a FC of 1-4 ppm. So, if HTH wants to offer accurate cya/fc ratios they have to make a choice: lower the amount of recommended cya or raise the fc recommendations. From a business perspective they probably made the right choice, as the uneducated public (the masses) are more likely to buck the thought of running their pool at 5-7 ppm (or higher!) when they’ve been trained for years to ‘not enter the pool until chlorine residuals are below 3ppm'. And, they are already pushing conventional wisdom by recommending a fc of 4.
Of course, they could publish a full cya/fc ratio chart, but that would take a lot of label space and risk consumers finding it more ‘complicated’ to use HTH products than the pool store version where all they worry about is checking for fc between 1-3. Not saying this wouldn’t be the right thing to do, just that in making purely business minded decisions these things are considered.
Click on the purple tab #2; here they educate a little on overstabilization, and even advocate the use of non-stabilized chlorine. Of course, they advocate their non-stabilized chlorine, which may lead to 'overcalciumization'…
I think much of the problem with the industry is the belief that the whole cya/fc relationship is too ‘complicated’ for the general public. And, it is more complicated than ‘every pool should be ran with fc between 1-3 ppm’. Question is, have they underestimated their consumer? Do consumers really want a one size fits all answer, especially if it is ineffective? The internet has changed the way many industries are run, and it will affect the pool chem business, too. Previously most everyone was at the mercy of what the pool store told us- there were very few avenues to learn any different. Now we know. Everyday more of us know. Eventually chem/ pool companies will have to change or they will loose their market share. It looks like HTH is figuring that out. Not perfect yet by any means, but at least moving in the right direction.
jt100 said:
I don't think the industry means to cause problems and their methods CAN be used...so long as we know what the stuff they recommend will be doing to our pool. Therein lies the problem...if the consumer doesn't understand what the chemicals do and the salesperson doesn't do anything but recite product labels or punch numbers into a computer and spit out a product management recipe, and doesn't understand how a pool should be operated there's little chance of success using the pool store methods. Many many many times the person behind the counter telling the consumer what to do likely hasn't operated a pool in their own back yard. Computers have replaced the human mind in problem solving and it doesn't always yield the best result. It is all profit and marketing driven. If you go into the pool store and tell them you only need some CYA, some Muriatic acid, and 4 cases of liquid chlorine, they will likely not know what to do with you because in their eyes the tabs/granular shocks are better because they are 99% (or whatever) Chlorine (not true, they are trichlor or dichlor ) and LC is only 10% chlorine (at least its the real thing).
I recently had a pool store owner tell me I had to use stabilized chlorine daily because it was total chlorine and I wanted total chlorine in my pool. And by using liquid chlorine, all I was doing was adding free chlorine. She couldn't grasp the idea that I had stabilizer in the pool already either...Hmmmm....ok. So I googled Total Chlorine. You know what I got? Not one reference to it being the definition of stabilized chlorine, but 100s of hits that TC=FC + CC. .
Keep learning. I have. And I've gone outside this site to confirm things. I've read most of the stuff chem geek has linked above. I don't understand a lot of it, but I've read it.. :lol:
Great discussion, btw...
Terry said:
Great post Terry. Now if only HTH would remove the copper from many of their products. :grrrr:
I'm especially fond of the HTH stabilizer and their Metal Control. Besides the lower prices the availability at Wally's is a major plus. That's another vote for, not having to "anxiously wait for the Pool Store to open" which goes a long way for me. Our Wally World stays open 24 hours.
I don't have enough long term experience with other brands of sequestrates but using, mostly, the HTH Metal Control, since last fall, during and after an AA treatment, and keeping pH below 7.5, the heavy calcium deposits in my pool are slowly lifting. It appears, also, to my eye, that the pretty extensive copper staining is lightening too. (Copper staining from use of Ionizers for 18 years.) And the HTH, one of the lowest priced you will find, certainly keeps the iron staining at bay. I'll have to add, though, that we don't have heavy iron staining that one would get from high iron content fill water; rather it comes from the sand/silt/dust that ends up in the pool and mainly stains the calcium scale on bottom of pool.
gg=alice
svenpup
LifeTime Supporter
Terry said:
In my experience, no they haven't underestimated their consumer.
I am a rare breed in that I have only ever known the TFP method. While I was shopping for a house, a pool was a "must have", and I started researching pool care before I even owned a pool. I was lucky enough to stumble upon TFP. I drank the kool-aide and never looked back.
As a brand new pool owner, I have the best looking pool I have seen. I don't flail around in the dark adding whatever snake oil is proffered by the pool store salesman. I have understand my pool chemistry, and I add what is needed, which by the way isn't much.
Now here is the irony. My friends who have owned pools for decades have no clue. What is worse the don't want a clue. I offer advice when they mention that their water is cloudy. I hint that it wouldn't be that difficult to take control of their pool when they say "a little algae doesn't really bother me." I mention that their CYA level is through the roof and the weekly shock (product not process which, by the way I never need) won't get them anywhere near the FC level they need. They don't want to hear it. They laugh at my "chemistry set" as they head off to the pool store with a mason jar of pool water.
geekgranny said:
I'll shout AMEN to that.
Until then, we have Aloe Rid or Shampoo Three for when Blondie goes elsewhere to swim where others don't know any better...(cringe...what else don't they know...)
svenpup--
What flavor is your koolaid?? LOL...
There are currently over 14,000 members at TFP [EDIT] now nearly 40,000 [END-EDIT] and at one time were more than 20,000 members at The PoolForum. Even with lurkers who don't register, it is doubtful that there are over 100,000 people who follow the chlorine/CYA relationship and use variants of the techniques described here. There are around 8 million pools in the U.S. so until we get closer to half a million to a million people, it simply won't result in change based on economics alone. Of course, if a few people with the power to initiate change at some leading companies wake up in the morning saying "how can I help people today" instead of "how can I maximize my personal income and corporate profits (with the consequences of hurting others through deceit)", then things can change much more quickly.Terry said:
Keep in mind that this really isn't the fault of most pool stores since they mostly just recite what is told to them by the people who sell them products and the standards are mostly developed by those who work in the industry with strong economic incentives. Also, many pool stores have temporary seasonal employees so the training isn't very high (and wages can be low). Also keep in mind that I think the majority of people with residential pools use a pool service [EDIT] (probably not true as many pools are Intex and similar temporary/seasonal pools most likely maintained by the owner) [END-EDIT] and the challenges of once-a-week visits usually force one to use Trichlor pucks/tabs in an inline chlorinator or floating feeder. Not everyone wants to take control of their own pool, though many do.
There is also a huge amount of institutional inertia. The 10x breakpoint chlorination rule is wrong (it applies correctly to ammonia, but not to CC which is how the industry uses it) and has been repeated by so many for so long with no one questioning it until very recently and even then not completely understood even though it's very straightforward chemistry. The longer something has been said, the harder it is to change even if it's not true. In this case, I believe it was just an innocent mistake made decades ago and not an intentional lie, but the result is the same.
Back in the 1980's, I was rooming in a place with an inground vinyl pool, and was designated as the pool guy, mostly since no one else would touch it. This was my first attempt to try to maintain a pool. I hit the pool stores, and gathered all the advice I could get. I had a few choices in stores, and there were some genuinely good-hearted and well-meaning folks running them. They tried their best to explain the ins and outs of pool care to me, but there were always unanswered questions. I collected the pool care pamphlets, read the product labels, and tried to make sense of the dosages and ratios.
There were even charts with the test kits showing how much of what to add for given measurements. Every manufacturer gave some recommendation showing how much of what to use when. And I went through it all.
But it didn't work. There should have been a simple means of knowing what x amount of 'this' would do to a pool, but it never did what it was supposed to. I even tried to create a computer program on my Commodore VIC 20 according to all the pool store and chem company info, and I should have been able to input my test results, and have it tell me what I needed to do. Technically, that is what happened, but the ultimate results in the pool were not right.
So I piddled with dichlor, ph up and ph down, acid, baking soda, soda ash, calcium, cal hypo, stabilizers... lower the TA, raise the ph, shock, shock, shock, add algaecides, it was a constant battle, and no one could tell me why. It sucked the entire time I was there, which was a few years.
Clearly, something was missing. And it stayed missing until early 1998, when I again had place with a pool, and again found myself struggling to find the magic pill. This time, though, I had the internet, and this time, I found a website called Pool Solutions. Ben Powell, whom you may find referenced here and there on this forum, and who was a commercial pool service guy, had put together a huge part of the puzzle over the years he'd done pool maintenance - he effect of CYA on chlorine's effectiveness. He had an email newsletter and a website, and both were tremendous blessings for me. Some things began to finally make sense. He also pointed out that many of the high-priced pool chemicals were nothing better than other, either comparable or exactly the same products available in grocery stores for a LOT less. Oh man, I owe a huge peace-of-mind debt to Ben.
Over time, many of the knowledgeable folks you see here teamed up originally on poolforum.com and then on this site which eventually sprang from that seed. These people congregated and shared their knowledge and experience, and the expertise and insight grew. Nowhere else, in my opinion, will you find this amount of knowledgeable brainpower collected and applied to understanding swimming pool operations and maintenance. You certainly will not find it in a pool store.
Oh yeah, for me the last major hurdle in my puzzle was trying to manage TA and ph. That truly never made sense to me, and I could never get results I wanted, until the carbonate/carbon dioxide effect was explained to me, and I understood how to use co2 off-gassing to make a permanent change in TA. Think that came from a pool store?
The bottom line is that for me, there is no greater collective of pool expertise than exists right here.
[edited for glaring stupid grammar mistakes - Ohm Boy]
There were even charts with the test kits showing how much of what to add for given measurements. Every manufacturer gave some recommendation showing how much of what to use when. And I went through it all.
But it didn't work. There should have been a simple means of knowing what x amount of 'this' would do to a pool, but it never did what it was supposed to. I even tried to create a computer program on my Commodore VIC 20 according to all the pool store and chem company info, and I should have been able to input my test results, and have it tell me what I needed to do. Technically, that is what happened, but the ultimate results in the pool were not right.
So I piddled with dichlor, ph up and ph down, acid, baking soda, soda ash, calcium, cal hypo, stabilizers... lower the TA, raise the ph, shock, shock, shock, add algaecides, it was a constant battle, and no one could tell me why. It sucked the entire time I was there, which was a few years.
Clearly, something was missing. And it stayed missing until early 1998, when I again had place with a pool, and again found myself struggling to find the magic pill. This time, though, I had the internet, and this time, I found a website called Pool Solutions. Ben Powell, whom you may find referenced here and there on this forum, and who was a commercial pool service guy, had put together a huge part of the puzzle over the years he'd done pool maintenance - he effect of CYA on chlorine's effectiveness. He had an email newsletter and a website, and both were tremendous blessings for me. Some things began to finally make sense. He also pointed out that many of the high-priced pool chemicals were nothing better than other, either comparable or exactly the same products available in grocery stores for a LOT less. Oh man, I owe a huge peace-of-mind debt to Ben.
Over time, many of the knowledgeable folks you see here teamed up originally on poolforum.com and then on this site which eventually sprang from that seed. These people congregated and shared their knowledge and experience, and the expertise and insight grew. Nowhere else, in my opinion, will you find this amount of knowledgeable brainpower collected and applied to understanding swimming pool operations and maintenance. You certainly will not find it in a pool store.
Oh yeah, for me the last major hurdle in my puzzle was trying to manage TA and ph. That truly never made sense to me, and I could never get results I wanted, until the carbonate/carbon dioxide effect was explained to me, and I understood how to use co2 off-gassing to make a permanent change in TA. Think that came from a pool store?
The bottom line is that for me, there is no greater collective of pool expertise than exists right here.
[edited for glaring stupid grammar mistakes - Ohm Boy]
As to the question of is the BBB method old or new, I can tell you my step father had the first residential swimming pool in our town of about 10,000 people it was built in about 1961. He originally used bleach for chlorine and muriatic acid, baking soda, etc, because there were no pool stores at the time.
Ike
Ike