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Thread: blind faith and this forum?

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    blind faith and this forum?

    I am relatively new here and i don't know if this has been brought up recently but here goes... I think TFP is a wonderful forum with lots of great info. I also realize that i am staking the health of myself and my family on the advice of a handful of people. Many of the methods seem to go against those of the industry. I just wonder why the rest of the industry is so slow to adapt these methods? CYA/FC for example ( If it is profit driven then I would think the industry would be the first to adapt this, because it means selling more chlorine, but then again chlorine is cheaper than algaecide). Is it lack of research, training or funds? Is it because the industry is driven by profit? What qualifies everyone here to more qualified than the industry as a whole? Real world experience? By looking at the profiles of the moderators, i have gained no insight to the education or expertise of the members. I'm not trying to disagree with any of you (and i am nowhere even close to qualified to argue anything pool related), i just have nothing to base my decisions off of other than your posts and links provided. How many members of this forum are in the industry and what is their thought on the subject? I don't want to come off as trolling or stirring the pot, but as i said i am pretty much blinding following the advice of this forum and going against everything that i have been told up to this point. BBB is awesome in that it gives me great control over my pool and i am no longer blindly following the advise of a pools store. But now i feel i am sometimes blindly following the advise of this forum. The more i read, though, the better i feel. But then again, i am only reading what i am provided here....There could be a whole other side that i am not aware of.
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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    This is actually a very interesting question. By the way, you aren't that new here. You've been here almost two years and the site was created in 2007.

    I use BBB because I believe that science supports the claims made on this site. My pool is always algae free when I follow the recommendations set forth within the bounds of this forum. I and others have tried doing it the pool store and industry way and witnessed the failures with this methodology. There have been no failures to witness for me with BBB.

    We have some very intelligent and science-minded people on this forum who contribute their time and research to TFP on a daily basis. They do this all free of charge...gratis. These are people who have science degrees from MIT and the like. They know their stuff backwards and forwards. The FC to CYA ratio information is based upon this science and research. It bears it all out and is proven to be correct time and again by the thousands of members here who employ it's use. Likewise, there are thousands upon thousands who go the pool store industry route and have problems every time. These are the same people who show up here new every spring looking for a better way. They find it here and it costs them nary a dime to learn it.

    I guess that about sums it up.

    ETA: As for the moderators, I can speak for myself that I really was a newbie when I came to TFP! Most of what I learned about pool water chemistry, I learned here. Since then, I have branched out a bit on my own in an attempt to learn more on the side. I do it because it retains my interest and I enjoy the science behind it more than anything. As a moderator though, I don't believe that I was made one because I am a subject matter expert as I certainly am not, but because I frequent the site often, answer lots of questions, and stay out of trouble for the most part.

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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    The BBB method is entirely based on the concept that high cya requires higher chlorine levels. The troublefree moniker is a bit ironic if you ask me. Because a pool operated on stabilized chlorine is way more trouble free than anything you can do with the BBB method.

    Again, the assertion is that high cya levels cause "trouble." They never have for me "yet" but I believe that they can. Still I much prefer to use stabilized chlorine. Despite that, this forum is full of valuable info far and beyond the BBB method, whether you subscribe or not.
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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkly
    The BBB method is entirely based on the concept that high cya requires higher chlorine levels. The troublefree moniker is a bit ironic if you ask me. Because a pool operated on stabilized chlorine is way more trouble free than anything you can do with the BBB method.

    Again, the assertion is that high cya levels cause "trouble." They never have for me "yet" but I believe that they can. Still I much prefer to use stabilized chlorine. Despite that, this forum is full of valuable info far and beyond the BBB method, whether you subscribe or not.
    Well, actually, all BBB really is is understanding what goes into your water and what changes these additions effect. Understanding the FC to CYA relationship is only part of it.

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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by 257WbyMag
    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkly
    The BBB method is entirely based on the concept that high cya requires higher chlorine levels. The troublefree moniker is a bit ironic if you ask me. Because a pool operated on stabilized chlorine is way more trouble free than anything you can do with the BBB method.

    Again, the assertion is that high cya levels cause "trouble." They never have for me "yet" but I believe that they can. Still I much prefer to use stabilized chlorine. Despite that, this forum is full of valuable info far and beyond the BBB method, whether you subscribe or not.
    Well, actually, all BBB really is is understanding what goes into your water and what changes these additions effect. Understanding the FC to CYA relationship is only part of it.
    I disagree. Pool chemistry is what you describe. BBB is a method of using commonly available items from the grocery store to maintain a pool. While the BBB method can potentially save some money over pool chemicals, the crux of it all is avoiding using stabilized chlorine because it raises your CYA level.
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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    There are a whole bunch of different things going on. For example, most advice given by pool stores is given by inexperienced people without much training. The pool stores don't usually pay enough to retain experienced workers. Most of what those people know they learned by reading the claims on the chemical packaging.

    Meanwhile, some of the large chemical companies make a lot of money on trichlor, so they downplay the issues with CYA. There is very little money spent on research, and most of what there is, is paid for by industry, with the various biases that implies. Most of the laws on the subject were written in the 50s through the 70s, and have only had minor updating since then.

    The people who actually work with pools every day learn things mostly by word of mouth, some apprenticeship, there is no reliable "master" source of information. People invent stories to explain what they saw, and those stories stick around even when they are dead wrong.

    It is a noisy environment, with lots of false and misleading information and few ways to tell what is true and what isn't. Out of that mishmash various people, some here, some who came before us, have tried to pull out the things that make sense, the things that fit the known science, and the things that we can get repeatable results on.

    We can't prove that we are right by showing you credentials. There isn't anyone in this industry who "really knows" what is happening, because a lot of the science hasn't been done. We have several parts of the puzzle, but there are still large gaps. What we can show you is hundreds of stories, and thousands of people, who followed what we recommend and got good results.

    That doesn't mean that we are always right. We make mistakes, both human mistakes and mistakes because we don't really know what is happening in every area. But we do strive to learn from out mistakes, and figure out what is going on and how to give better advice. The parts that are supported by science we document and explain, the rest we build up by watching for what works and changing our advice when problems come up.

    We are also in a unique position because we are not financially motivated to protect our companies interests. There is no company here, just people trying to help each other. That means we can follow things where they lead, and not have to turn away when something challenges the companies products (there aren't any products) or exceeds our grant funding (there aren't any grants).
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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkly
    Because a pool operated on stabilized chlorine is way more trouble free than anything you can do with the BBB method.
    That is a curious thought. I wonder if the hundreds of people a year who find this site and post about the problems they have been having because they used stabilized chlorine products, and for which nothing their pool stores suggest helps at all, would agree with you. Meanwhile, the people who have been around here for a while and have learned what we teach tend to go years between problems.
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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    Well, this is "The Deep End".....so....

    jt100, I believe the ultimate goal of BBB is to learn to think for yourself and understand your own pool. As you continue to learn, you begin to understand the consequences, good and bad, of the things you do to your pool.

    In short, your goal and our goal is not to have to rely on anyone's opinion but rather your own knowledge and skills that you gain on this forum and elsewhere.

    If you truly believe that you are "blindly" accepting the advice of others on this forum, then you are not yet a BBB'r and need to continue your education until you are making your own informed decisions.

    Thinkly, this is the second or third time you have posted your advocacy of stabilized chlorine. I'm not sure I understand your motivation but it's gonna' be difficult for you to find many recruits here.
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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkly
    The BBB method is entirely based on the concept that high cya requires higher chlorine levels. The troublefree moniker is a bit ironic if you ask me. Because a pool operated on stabilized chlorine is way more trouble free than anything you can do with the BBB method.

    Again, the assertion is that high cya levels cause "trouble." They never have for me "yet" but I believe that they can. Still I much prefer to use stabilized chlorine. Despite that, this forum is full of valuable info far and beyond the BBB method, whether you subscribe or not.
    I just wanted to remind all that draining a pool, 1/3, 1/2 etc., as some people do, to reach acceptable CYA levels IS "trouble" for many people and in many cases impossible to do. Many people don't have the option of regular water draining/filling due to water restrictions and/or due to concern for responsible use of our dwindling resources.

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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    I think the whole concept comes down to "use of stabilized chlorine" in it's various forms and MIS-use. You will note that there are many instances where advise is given regarding the option of a pool start up or vacation maintenance with stabilized chlorine.

    I guess you can choose to follow the advise here or not. Because someone chooses not to doesn't negate the truth behind the science. Enjoy your pool whatever you decide to put or not put in there!
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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkly
    I disagree. Pool chemistry is what you describe. BBB is a method of using commonly available items from the grocery store to maintain a pool. While the BBB method can potentially save some money over pool chemicals, the crux of it all is avoiding using stabilized chlorine because it raises your CYA level.
    That's funny, because I cannot remember anyone suggesting that the use of stabilized chlorine sources is somehow a bad thing. In fact, it is the overuse of stabilized chlorine that leads to problems. I cannot recall any advice given that suggested one should avoid CYA at all costs. That brings me back to my original point in that BBB is about understanding things and not about just getting off on the cheap.

    Most all of the regular posters here that don't run SWCG operations use stabilized chlorine sources at some point or another. We can get by with doing this because we monitor our levels, understand the chemical relationships, and rein things in before they can become problems. This is all because we have been educated to be aware of what can occur should one or more levels get out of hand.

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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    jt100, here's my two-cents' worth: This site is for folks to come together and share what they know and search for info on what they need to know. So much good (and backed-up) info is available on this site that it's simply a matter of doing your own research and making up your own mind. This site has the advantage of educated and industry-pros. These pros have helped countless every-day pool owners to understand the relationship between their pool water, whether it be well water, city water or whatever, and the chemicals necessary to keep our pools sanitized. The industry pros and mechanically-inclined on this site have helped countless pool owners solve their problems, which could easily have cost the pool owners hundreds of dollars, had they not had the advantage of this site's expertise! I may just be a stay-at-home-mom, but I immensely enjoy trudging through Richard's rather long explanations sometimes, even though I don't understand much of it. It still helps me put things together in my mind - and who knows, maybe some day, I WILL understand it!!

    So in closing, the people who have dedicated hours of their time on this site for helping others, FOR FREE, are not shoving anything down anyone's throats. You can read the threads, the multitude of testimonies from people who had their doubts (including my own husband) about BBB and switching from baqua-goo, and recovering from chronic algae and all the other problems covered on this site, and take it or leave it. It's your pool and your decision. No one is going smash you over the head and force you to pour bleach into your pool or any of the other "advice" on here. It's simply a site to garner information. And if it feels like you've found a new "family," that's great too! This site has provided not only valuable info, but entertainment and comradery (sp) as well. Remember: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Thank you to all our moderators!
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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    Let me say I have been dealing with the maintenance of a pool off and on for about 30 years, I have played the pool store "professional" testing game, the baqua game, the just get it in the ballpark game, etc. I have used fancy test kits, and basic kits, even strips, and am now using the TF-100 kit, I have fought algae, metals, and who knows what else. And I have came to a few conclusions:

    You can usually achieve acceptable water in a lightly to moderately used backyard pool with nothing but a basic OTO Chlorine /pH test (or even test strips) dumping in stabilized pucks, and shocking blindly and often using liquid, dichlor or MPS , is the water going to be ideal, no, is it going to be better than the vast majority of public pools, yes. When the water gets too far out of balance either dump and replace, or go to the pool store, have it tested and come home with a car full of chemicals. It is easy, and most people like easy, and if it is good enough that the kids hair does not turn green (or only rarely turns green) most people are happy, even if it is wasteful and the kids all have red eyes.

    TFP is for that X percent of the population that wants better than "acceptable", that wants to not be wasteful of chemical use, to not come home from the pool store with arm loads of questionably chemicals, and most importantly not have green haired red eyed kids. BBB is just one way of getting to the desired result, many people here mix BBB and traditional methods in all sorts of combinations and for the most part it is accepted. I don't mind admitting to anyone here that I have a big 50 pound tub of thrchlor pucks and used a couple of them last weekend (I needed to raise the FC and the CYA, it was the end of the weekend so why not let the tri-chlor take care of things for a few days), the important thing here is maintaining a suitably balanced pool, and deciding for yourself where to draw that line.

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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    Great post Ike. Couldn't agree more. We used to own an ag pool (pre BBB) and swam often at the public chemical stew before building an ig pool. My kids live in it this time of year. I'd hate to be trusting the water balance to anyone else but me. Of course, only because I've learned how to do it myself, mostly from being educated through this site. Kudos to all who make it possible. My blond-haired, clear-eyed kids and wife thank you, too!

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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    Following the pool stores was blind faith. Little they told me led to understanding. I literally blindly followed them for 7 years and got mediocrity, at best. And I was scared to death when they were closed over a holiday...

    I figured if I could admittedly follow them blindly for 7 years, I could certainly give TFP/BBB (and really, myself) a shot for a season. It works. And I know more than I ever thought possible. Google any of the concepts/recommendations here and you'll get non TFP sources to back it up.


    Now instead of being scared of them being gone, I'm lining a jug dumper up to properly dose my pool in my absence this weekend.

    As far as credentials....there's no better credentials for me than the thousands of people doing practical applications of the concepts taught here.
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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    I myself dabbled with paying for hundreds of dollars for chemicals that never seemed to do a thing. It was like I was trying to concoct something, a little of this a little of that and so on. I spent years swimming in a pool that probably wasn't safe to swim in, I shudder to even think about it.

    I always had issues, my first pool I used pucks exclusively and sent my cya soaring, never once was put on the right track about the concepts. I believe because there was always an agenda to keep me coming back.

    So I am so thankful for finding TFP after many years of aggravation of chemical issues. They truly taught me over time that it is important to grasp the reality of taking control for yourself. Getting to know your pool and what will happen to it and how to predict what it needs etc.

    I look at it like going to the doctor. If I went to the doctor because I was feeling sick and after years of never feeling right, and many testing and medications later, still with no results, I would have to decide to jump ship and get a second opinion.

    For me my second opinion was the best choice I ever made! Now my pool is not sick anymore, if it does get sick, I feel confident the folks here can guide me quickly in the right direction to fix it
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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh
    Well, this is "The Deep End".....so....

    jt100, I believe the ultimate goal of BBB is to learn to think for yourself and understand your own pool. As you continue to learn, you begin to understand the consequences, good and bad, of the things you do to your pool.

    In short, your goal and our goal is not to have to rely on anyone's opinion but rather your own knowledge and skills that you gain on this forum and elsewhere.

    If you truly believe that you are "blindly" accepting the advice of others on this forum, then you are not yet a BBB'r and need to continue your education until you are making your own informed decisions.

    Thinkly, this is the second or third time you have posted your advocacy of stabilized chlorine. I'm not sure I understand your motivation but it's gonna' be difficult for you to find many recruits here.
    message deleted due to my stupidity
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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    I know I'm speaking for duraleigh here, but it looks like you're referring to:

    Thinkly, this is the second or third time you have posted your advocacy of stabilized chlorine. I'm not sure I understand your motivation but it's gonna' be difficult for you to find many recruits here.
    I believe that was directed to Thinkly's reply:

    The BBB method is entirely based on the concept that high cya requires higher chlorine levels. The troublefree moniker is a bit ironic if you ask me. Because a pool operated on stabilized chlorine is way more trouble free than anything you can do with the BBB method.

    Again, the assertion is that high cya levels cause "trouble." They never have for me "yet" but I believe that they can. Still I much prefer to use stabilized chlorine. Despite that, this forum is full of valuable info far and beyond the BBB method, whether you subscribe or not.
    Sorry for speaking for you duraleigh, just wanted to help clarify for the OP.
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    whoozer's Avatar
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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    I believe you didn't see whom Duraleigh was referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by jt100
    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh
    Well, this is "The Deep End".....so....

    jt100, I believe the ultimate goal of BBB is to learn to think for yourself and understand your own pool. As you continue to learn, you begin to understand the consequences, good and bad, of the things you do to your pool.

    In short, your goal and our goal is not to have to rely on anyone's opinion but rather your own knowledge and skills that you gain on this forum and elsewhere.

    If you truly believe that you are "blindly" accepting the advice of others on this forum, then you are not yet a BBB'r and need to continue your education until you are making your own informed decisions.

    Thinkly, this is the second or third time you have posted your advocacy of stabilized chlorine. I'm not sure I understand your motivation but it's gonna' be difficult for you to find many recruits here.


    I'm not sure how you perceived that in my previous posts. Granted i did have a minor problem when i switched to BBB, but that has resolved itself (thanks to the methods used on this forum). There is no advocacy for stabilized chlorine and I'm not "looking" for recruits. I do have a feeder but i don't use it anymore. I have no other motivation than trying to educate myself and gain a better understanding of my pool, as well as, the safety of my family and friends. Thanks again to this forum.
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  20. Back To Top    #20
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    Re: blind faith and this forum?

    hehe oops loughhps beat me to it.
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