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Thread: Could this be dilluted to make a good sequestrant?

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    Could this be dilluted to make a good sequestrant?

    In my ongoing search for good sequestrantt which is readily available in Honolulu I cames across this:

    Simplicity's Pool Surface Cleaner

    MSDS here:

    http://www.appatek.com/MSDS/SIMPLICI...%20Cleaner.pdf

    My idea would be to mix it in say a bucket of water of "?" quarts and pour it into the pool.

    The item comes in a 12 oz tube and is relatively inexpensive.

    As I am no chemistry major I wonder if those of you who are would consider this a good or bad solution? If good how much of the cleaner should be mixed with water and by what means (it is rather thick and is not in liquid solution), and how much cleaner would be needed for 10,000 gals? Also how often and in what does should a maintenance solution be applied? After introduction to the pool how long should the pump run?

    Initially entering into the water it does foam a little, but only a little.

    Thank you for considering this somewhat crazy idea.
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Could this be dilluted to make a good sufficant?

    Do you mean "sequestrant"?

    Regardless of what you meant, that isn't something that you want to put into the pool in any quantity. The perfume alone is enough to make it a bad idea.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Could this be dilluted to make a good sufficant?

    JasonLion,

    Sequestrant, yes, my apologies; I will make the changes above.

    As regards the perfume, I love perfume, but of course it depends on the person and formula.

    For information I used this when I drained the pool, I put it on the tile and walls with a sponge and then bushed it over and left it for about 20 minutes, in order to clean any dirt or draw any dirt out in the plaster. I used two tubes. It seemed to help the plaster but not so good on the tile, which I thought odd. I then washed it down with the hose and drained to waste.

    There was no noticeable perfume smell, and as I said I love the smell of good perfume in small amounts such as Mitsouko by Guerlain, or Cuir de Russie by Chanel, but I do not think there is any chance of Simplicity's Pool Surface Cleaner invading their franchises.

    The question then is, as there is no apparent overwhelming smell even when smelled out of the tube at full strength, can it still be considered, from a chemical sequestrant point of view?

    Thank you for your reply.
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Could this be dilluted to make a good sequestrant?

    As I said before, no. "phosphonic" is not the same word as "phosphoric".
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Could this be dilluted to make a good sequestrant?

    JasonLion,

    OK thank you I got it, not the same stuff; phosphonic, phosphoric, and symphonic are completely diffrent animals. I'm learning thanks to you all.

    One last question, as you have such a large membership on this forum, why not make your own sequestrant? I believe many persons would buy it from you and at least we would know what is inside it, lord knows there are enough questions on it, any thoughts?

    Aloha.
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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    Re: Could this be dilluted to make a good sequestrant?

    The ingredient in the MSDS you linked to has "phosphoric acid" which directly results in the primary algae food known as orthophosphate which is what your phosphate remover directly removes. The better metal sequestrants have phosphonate aka phosphonic acid which is an organic compound chemically bound to phosphate and one of the best of these is HEDP since it doesn't break down very quickly from chlorine.

    The manufacture of chemicals is not something TFP members would easily do. Distribution is another matter as is repackaging and that's what TFTestkits does with the Taylor products where Dave puts them together into more logical and useful quantities. This is a small business, but if we were to find a good source of metal sequestrant, then Dave could resell it, but it would be hard to compete with other online sellers that have more volume. This is why it is better to offer something unique as with the TF-100 test kit.

    If you can't find anything at a local pool store, you can always shop online and have something shipped. Many at TFP do that for items like boric acid, for example.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: Could this be dilluted to make a good sequestrant?

    chem geek,

    Thank you for the clear and concise reply.

    One quick question if one adds the better metal sequestrants with HEDP, and phosphonate aka phosphonic acid, then take a phosphate reading would it show as very high? If one then added phosphate remover would that then be defeating the purpose of the sequestrant, in other words would it nullify the beneficial effects of the sequestrant?

    I know one does not need to remove phosphates but this question is simply to satisfy my curiosity.

    Aloha.
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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    Re: Could this be dilluted to make a good sequestrant?

    HEDP will neither show up as phosphate in a standard orthophosphate test nor will it be removed by a phosphate remover. Remember that both phosphate tests and phosphate removers only test or remove orthophosphate -- that is, inorganic phosphate. HEDP is an organic phosphate, but not one readily usable by algae so it does not promote algae growth. Eventually, slowly over time, it will break down and turn into orthophosphate, but not very quickly.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: Could this be dilluted to make a good sequestrant?

    chem geek,

    Thank you, I understand HEDP but if it contain the second chemical would it show up.

    COMPOSITION / INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS

    Chemical Name---------------------------------CAS#--------------Wt.%

    1-Hydroxyethylidene-1,1-diphosphonic acid-----2809-21-4----------27%

    Phosphorous acid--------------------------10294-56-1------------1.35%

    And if the phosphate were removed would it be a problem?

    Aloha.
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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    Re: Could this be dilluted to make a good sequestrant?

    The phosphorous acid would show up in a phosphate test kit and I calculate how much below. It would also get removed by a phosphate remover and I don't believe that would be a problem since it is the HEDP that is the metal sequestrant -- the phosphorous acid is probably just a by-product of manufacturing.

    If the dosage is 1 quart per 10,000 gallons, and assuming 1.17 g/ml density (specific gravity), then the 1.35% phosphorous acid would result in (946 ml) * (1.17 g/ml) * .0135 * (1000 mg/g) / (37,854 liters) = 0.395 mg/L = 395 ppb so around 400 ppb. So you can see where adding a lot of this sort of metal sequestrant can add to orthophosphates even before any HEDP were to get oxidized by chlorine.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: Could this be dilluted to make a good sequestrant?

    chem geek,

    Thank you for the reply. Ahhhhhh, I had added Omni's Stain and Scale Control (no longer manufactured or sold by them) and sure enough the phosphate level is around 4000 up from around 200 with the fill water. Oh why, oh why did I not order Jack's Magic The Purple Stuff, the MSDS on it states 100% HEDP, from the internet.....stupid.

    I put in phospate remover and hopefully in 2 days it will be gone. I know I could leave it there but I prefer to remove it. And yes the pool has turned cloudy but I have used it before and it goes away in 24 hours or so, so no big deal. I do this in two treatments so as not to overburden the filter, back washing every 24 hours. So it will take 2 treatments times 24 hours, therefore 2 days in all.

    Many thanks for confirming my suspicions.
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Could this be dilluted to make a good sequestrant?

    Why bother with the phospate remover? There are much simpler and less expensive ways to prevent algae.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Could this be dilluted to make a good sequestrant?

    JasonLion,

    I agree with your comment, but I just like to work my phosphates off a lower base number and I have the phosphate remover, so why not.

    That as they say "Is just me" or if you like my preference, each to his own. As I see it there is no harm done except to my pocket and a little extra time, and to pay for my sins I will donate an equal amount to charity. That is not a bad idea, every time I take an unnecessary luxury I will give an equal amount. That will make me think if this, or anything else, is really worth doing or having.

    The other issue I think that I have is that my ancestry is half Germam and I have always liked everthing to be exact, I think it is a genetic thing, that does not make it good. I fight against this all the time but sometimes it can be a good thing, however I still need to be little more lax when it comes to numbers and not be so precise.

    Thank you for your comment it made me think a little harder, from a philosophical perspective, and thanks to you I may end up with a little more cash, as will the charities.
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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