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Thread: New Liner pulling coping away.

  1. #1
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    New Liner pulling coping away.

    I am having a new liner installed in my pool. The job is partially done with approximately 8" or water in the shallow end, it appears to me that the liner is actually too small. The installer said he had the liner made with a 4" cove, however my pool never had a cove in the bottom.

    The pool is 19x35 grecian and the liner is not even close to touching the wall in the corners and I can't imagine water pressure stretching the liner that much. I would guess that there is 5-6" behind the liner in the corners right now. Will the water pressure acutally push the liner into the corners? There is also 2-3" of space behind the liner in the shallow section which might be due to having the cove in the liner but I'm not sure if that is the entire problem.

    My biggest concern is that the coping is actually being pulled away from the concrete on one side of the pool. It looks to me like there is too much pressure from the liner pulling the coping. The coping is still attached to the top of the pool wall. I can't tell if the coping is just twisting or if the pool wall has actually pulled in some. The liner installer is trying to blame the problem on the concrete not being poured correctly. I tried to pull the liner out of the bead track but it is just too tight to lift it up at all in order to get the bead out. I think I'll have to pump some water out to relieve enough pressure.
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  2. #2
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    Re: New Liner pulling coping away.

    That picture was taken a couple of days ago. The coping is actually pulled further away from the concrete now. It doesn't look like the wall has moved but maybe it has. It looks more like the coping is being twisted as it is being pulled down by a liner that is too tight. I can't know for sure since the concrete covers all the fasteners but the coping appears to be fastened to the wall correctly. The installer is saying that the small lip inside the coping is supposed to hold the coping into the concrete. The lips seems too small to effectively do that.

    Any thoughts?

    Thanks,
    Kevin

  3. #3
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    Re: New Liner pulling coping away.

    I'm no vinyl liner expert but that just doesn't seem right to me.
    10K gallon IG gunite with waterfall; Pentair CC320P filter; WhisperFlo 2 HP pump
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  4. #4
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    Re: New Liner pulling coping away.

    Wow! What was the temperature outside when the liner was dropped? Liner manufacturers make liners differently for expected temps. A full liner is used when the temps are cool, regular for temps between the low 60's to the low 70's and snug for when it's hot out. The tech that did the measure should specify that to the manufacturer.

    Scott
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  5. #5

    Re: New Liner pulling coping away.

    I just had my grecian liner installed and the liner was flush in all corners. After the PB installed the fans the liner was nice and tight to all walls and the bottom. Hope that helps. Good Luck

  6. #6
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    Re: New Liner pulling coping away.

    Welcome to TFP!!

    There is NO WAY!! that the coping could ever do that - as long as it was correctly installed in the first place. The liner would rip before the coping would warp like that. The only time I see anything close to that with that type coping is when water has gotten twixt crete and coping and frozen.

    If the wall wasn't straightened ( OR didn't have the "A" braces installed or a collar poured ) ... no matter how I slice this one - Mr. PB did a substandard install, doesn't know how to measure and install a new liner and if I was the deck dude - I'd kick his butt for trying to blame me

    The small lip isn't there to keep the coping attached to the darn deck , it's to keep rain/ snowmelt from getting between the crete and coping. The bolts or tek screws attach the coping to the wall and should be enough to hold the coping in place, no matter how tight the liner is. Then you have hundreds of pounds of concrete deck weighing the coping down. Only if some idiot ~1" foam between the crete and the coping, top of the wall panel before pouring the deck, AND the coping was only secured at the ends AND you're seeing this in the middle of a 14' section of coping - COULD the coping warp like you picture without the pool walls being pulled in.

    Is the deck heaving in the area you show?

    Sorry for the long, and flaming, post- someone dropped the ball and I'd have to say it was the PB.
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

  7. #7
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    Re: New Liner pulling coping away.

    Ted,

    Thanks for the reply. I'm still confused by the whole problem with the coping also. I told the installer he needs to come back so we can figure out exactly what the problem is with the coping. He said he is going to bring the liner representative with him.

    The concrete hasn't moved. The concrete has a plenty of rebar in it to ensure it doesn't ever move.

    My first thought was that the wall must have moved but I'm not sure about that any more. I'm thinking maybe the screws holding the coping to the top of the wall may be pulling out due to all the weight from the water pulling on the liner.

    I want the installer to remove enough water so we can take the liner off that entire wall to determine exactly what is moving. If the wall is moving I'm not sure what to do. If the tek screws are failing I think I can drill small holes through the concrete just deep enough to hit the lip on the coping and then I can install new tek screws to hold the coping down.

    Right now there is just too much tension on the liner to even lift it enough to pull it out of the bead track.

    Kevin

  8. #8
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    Re: New Liner pulling coping away.

    One other question. I'm still leaning towards the liner is just too small. When they pull a vacuum on the liner, how tight should the corner pull in? Both the vertical corners and the horizontal corners at the bottom of the shallow section were not even close to the walls when the vacuum was running.

    Thanks,
    Kevin

  9. #9
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    Re: New Liner pulling coping away.

    I tried to take a couple of pictures. One picture shows how tight the liner is in the corners. The bottom edges of the pool are also pulled away from the corners quite a bit. As I mentioned before, the installer ordered a liner with a 4" cove but my pool doesn't have a cove. The other pictures shows the coping being pulled away from the concrete. After careful examination today and some measuring I think the pool wall is actually pulled in about 1 inch.

    If the pool wall is pulled in what do I need to do to repair the wall?

    Could this be a result of the liner being too small and putting too much stress on the wall?

    Thanks,
    Kevin
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  10. #10
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    Re: New Liner pulling coping away.

    Kevin
    I was told when I built my pool that the coping was desinged to hold the liner in place not up. I would ask to see the measurements that your liner guy used to place the order and would double check the measurements yourself. Every liner manufacture would require a check list of the measurement for the certain pool type and the person ordering the liner would have to provide this to them in order to get the liner. I think you can go to a liner manufacture website and get the measurements need for your style pool, I think you said it was Greecian. I was told that liner manufactures intentionally made liners a little smaller than the measurements sent to them so that you were certain to have a snug fit. I would be inclined to agree with you that the liner that has been installed is to small.

    Now for the coping. To me it looks like a bad install. From the pic that you sent it does not look like concrete was pushed all the way into the coping in the area you have pictured. What happens, is when the concrete was poured, the larger aggregate bunched up and did not allow the smaller aggregate and morter to get by and fill the void up against the coping. This is a common occurance in the construction industry and is called Honeycombing, only normally forms come off and you can see it. In your case is is a blind pour. A contentious concrete man might catch this but I hate to use contentious and concrete man in the same sentence?

    There should be some kind of bonding agent on the market that could be used to fill the gap between the concrete and the coping. I would pump in the glue, pull the coping back into place and clamp it down and see if that works

    Good Luck
    Jason
    35K IG Vinyl 20 x 40 self built pool, Hayward Pro Series High-Rate Sand Filter 31" 98gal/min, Hayward TriStar 1.85hp, Hayward 400btu heater, BBB method w/Hypo, Jazz light w/matching fiber optic rope lighting around coping w/syncronized color wheels. Concrete Paver deck.

  11. #11
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    Re: New Liner pulling coping away.

    Kevin, you don't quite understand why I said what I said last night (I'm REALLY! surprised none of the other pool dudes commented )

    If the pool wall pulled in, I don't want to have to tell you what's required to fix it (even if it's under warranty, I don't want to be responsible for your heart attack) {but I told you WHY it happened, in my other post}

    I'm sure that the liner is too small!

    Please reread my other post as to the impossibility of this happening to the POOL when a liner is cut too short (a vinyl liner SHOULD!!! rip before a pool wall caves in )
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

  12. #12
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    Re: New Liner pulling coping away.

    Kevin

    I believe Ted is correct in both of his posts. I wish he was not and I could give you some better news.

    Good Luck
    Jason
    35K IG Vinyl 20 x 40 self built pool, Hayward Pro Series High-Rate Sand Filter 31" 98gal/min, Hayward TriStar 1.85hp, Hayward 400btu heater, BBB method w/Hypo, Jazz light w/matching fiber optic rope lighting around coping w/syncronized color wheels. Concrete Paver deck.

  13. #13
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    Re: New Liner pulling coping away.

    OK, so lets assume the wall is being pulled in. What is the best way to fix it?

    The pool has been in for 11 years so the original installer is out of the picture.

    Thanks,
    Kevin

  14. #14
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    Re: New Liner pulling coping away.

    You would need to remove the concrete along the wall that has moved, dig the dirt out until you were able to push the wall back into alignment. Then backfill as you fill your pool with water to keep the back filling process from pushing the wall back out. Once the backfill process is done and grade is level you can re-pour the concrete deck. I am a DIY and I think that with the help of a concrete saw, electric jackhammer and a couple of freinds that this project could be ready for new concrete in a day (a long day).
    35K IG Vinyl 20 x 40 self built pool, Hayward Pro Series High-Rate Sand Filter 31" 98gal/min, Hayward TriStar 1.85hp, Hayward 400btu heater, BBB method w/Hypo, Jazz light w/matching fiber optic rope lighting around coping w/syncronized color wheels. Concrete Paver deck.

  15. #15
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    Re: New Liner pulling coping away.

    Talk of shifting pool walls aside, that liner is too small and should be removed and replaced with one that fits! If you never had any problem like this before, then you might be OK leaving it as is once you get a correctly sized liner in there.
    11,200 gal, Pebble-Tec; Tristar 2-speed 1hp - Swimclear 325 ft2 cart - SWG - A & A in-floor cleaner - Heat pump. For the poolside cooking, a Yoder Wichita and a Big Steel Keg!
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  16. #16
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    Re: New Liner pulling coping away.

    The first thing to do is not PANIC! :P

    You, and we, need to know what the problem is before we can advise how to fix it

    At this time of year, I can't guarantee that I'll be here every day, but the fix won't be a 1 day deal anyway.

    I'm here to help you

    I've just worked a 12 hour day and have to get up at 6:00 AM tomorrow, keep us posted and I'll keep posting back
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

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