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Thread: Smarter Stain Removal

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    Smarter Stain Removal

    Okay, I went through stain removal twice before. The second time, Leslie's guided me to attempt it in July, it was a disaster and I ended up finding this forum.
    My pool has iron stains. They are worse in the winter, but as the water heats up many of them disappear. It is iron, we have done the vitaminc tests and if we were to add AA as we did in the past, it looks white and new in just a few hours.

    So, as I was planning to order my arsenal of AA, PQ60, Purple Stuff (all totaled about $200) and working on my calculated plan of attack, I had a change of heart.

    My pool looks 80% good right now. The water and chemistry is 100%. You can see a small leaf on the bottom of the deep end from up on my second story deck and tell if it is a leaf, a bug, or a rock. So we are very happy in the water department. The walls and steps just have the "tea"stains.

    Here was my alternate plan based on reading here.
    1. Keep the chemistry spot on, but at lower recc' end of ph and FC.
    2. Add the sequestrate, Purple Stuff
    3. At night when the pump and water motion stop, use the sock method to treat one area of walls at a time with AA. This works, I have tried it long in the past.
    4. Use this methodical method over time to pull as much metal off the walls as I can.
    5. If it doesn't work or last, the money wasted is half of the other route, and the time wasted is nothing compared to the other route.

    My question for the TFP members is:
    Is my placing so much importance on the water quality, the algae free state, the finely balanced chemistry , and pool "open for swimming" status that is preventing me from wanting to attempt the normal "full on frontal" metal stain attack, a HEALTHY symptom of someone who has converted to the BBB method(plus SWG) on this forum. Does the thought of messing up your stabilized pool make you think twice before messing with it?
    40'x20'x8' to 3', Vinyl IG with brick coping, built/opened 04/2006
    Hayward S244T Pro-series 300lb Sand Filter - vari-flo XL valve
    Goldline Controls Aquarite Turbo Cell SWG t-cell 15
    Hayward SP2607X10 Pump w/ Century Centurion .75HP motor (4th motor in 4 years all under warranty) Polaris 360

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    duraleigh's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    Does the thought of messing up your stabilized pool make you think twice before messing with it?
    ABSOLUTELY!! Metal staining is such a PITA and it never goes away unless you replace the water.

    Getting your pool right in the basic parameters is tough enough. However, you obviously have a good grasp on the chemistry involved so any imbalance you get, I am confident you have the knowledge to correct it pretty easily.

    Do you have a household water softener? Would you consider refilling with iron free water and then doing the spashout/evaporation refill from your softener?
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    Metal stains are really just an aesthetic issue. If you don't mind the way they look you can leave them alone. Or, if you are willing to have them around for a while but want them gone eventually, you can removed them slowly, spot by spot.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    AV8TOR's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    Whats AA?
    16,000 gal IG Double Roman Plaster Pool (16yrs - plaster redone 2014)
    Pentair FNS-48 DE filter with WhisperFlo 2HP single speed pump
    Polaris 280 robot
    BBB all the way and tested with a TF100 kit
    Pool Calc user

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    AA is ascorbic acid. It is a common stain treatment for iron stains.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    dayhiker's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    How long after the full treatment should you leave teh pH under 7.2?
    The avatar is Spalding from Caddyshack
    18x36 vinyl IG - approximately 24000 gal
    Jandy SHPM1.5 Pump (1.5 HP); Jandy APURE 1400 SWG; Polaris PB4-60Q Booster Pump; Jandy CL340 Cartridge Filter
    (3) 4'x12' Aquatherm solar panels
    Next project, pump sound enclosure and lots of pool landscaping [6tons of stone 8) funnnn]

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    Quote Originally Posted by dayhiker
    How long after the full treatment should you leave teh pH under 7.2?
    For a week or two, according to the Pool School article. Then adjust it up to normal with Borax, but if you see stains start to show up when you do, bring it back down with acid and add more sequesterant before raising it back to 7.5-7.6.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    There are two phases to the keeping PH low. First you give it a week for the sequestrant and AA to complete their work and stabilize. Then, even after that, you need to move very slowly so you can catch any problems the instant they happen. If you haven't added enough sequestrant, raising the PH can cause the stains to reappear. Since it is very difficult to know if you added enough sequestrant or not, you want to change the PH slowly at first (once it is safe to raise the PH at all) so that any lack of sequestrant becomes obvious while there is still time to recover without doing the entire process over again.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    dayhiker's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    Thanks. I'm still under 7.2 a little over 2 weeks after citric acid. 1 week out I slowly added 1 bottle of bleach to get my FC to the minimum of 3. I've since been running my pump about 4 hrs at 50% on the swg. I tested Monday and was surprised to see FC=0. I added half a bottle (182) and planned on doing the other half that night. 45 minutes later there was no reaction and I stupidly added the other half. 1 hr later I had a green pool. Both of you helfped me through this last summer. THis time it is much less green. My salt was down to about 2200 at opening so I suppose that means 1/3 of the water was flushed which would explain the less dramatic reaction. 1L of sequestrant and 24 hours later things are much better. I'm going to add another L today just for grins. Ahhh, good times.

    Followup question, a long term pH of 7.5-7.8 is still appropriate for a SWG with iron in the water, correct?
    The avatar is Spalding from Caddyshack
    18x36 vinyl IG - approximately 24000 gal
    Jandy SHPM1.5 Pump (1.5 HP); Jandy APURE 1400 SWG; Polaris PB4-60Q Booster Pump; Jandy CL340 Cartridge Filter
    (3) 4'x12' Aquatherm solar panels
    Next project, pump sound enclosure and lots of pool landscaping [6tons of stone 8) funnnn]

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    About 7.5-7.6 is your goal. Don't let it get above 7.8 Good times indeed, LOL Hang in there!
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    That is exactly the nightmare I am trying to avoid.

    BTW a quick google search found patents for using magnets to remove iron oxides from industrial water.

    I wonder if magnets could over time pull the sequestered iron from the water


    Sequestering agent is fricking expensive
    40'x20'x8' to 3', Vinyl IG with brick coping, built/opened 04/2006
    Hayward S244T Pro-series 300lb Sand Filter - vari-flo XL valve
    Goldline Controls Aquarite Turbo Cell SWG t-cell 15
    Hayward SP2607X10 Pump w/ Century Centurion .75HP motor (4th motor in 4 years all under warranty) Polaris 360

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    dayhiker's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    Quote Originally Posted by Fast411
    That is exactly the nightmare I am trying to avoid.

    BTW a quick google search found patents for using magnets to remove iron oxides from industrial water.

    I wonder if magnets could over time pull the sequestered iron from the water


    Sequestering agent is fricking expensive

    Here's my drama from last summer if you'd care to read the drama: staining-t13962.html
    The avatar is Spalding from Caddyshack
    18x36 vinyl IG - approximately 24000 gal
    Jandy SHPM1.5 Pump (1.5 HP); Jandy APURE 1400 SWG; Polaris PB4-60Q Booster Pump; Jandy CL340 Cartridge Filter
    (3) 4'x12' Aquatherm solar panels
    Next project, pump sound enclosure and lots of pool landscaping [6tons of stone 8) funnnn]

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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    Patience, I have found, is one ingredient that is needed in most of these recipes for pool chemistry.

    I think lack of patience is one reason pool stores make money. They keep people bouncing off the wallls; dump all of this in and see what it does. Now dump all of this in to fix that and see what it does.

    Where as, a week, BBB, a pool calculator (praise God) and some patience will get your chemistry stabilized.

    I'll post how this slow removal goes...
    40'x20'x8' to 3', Vinyl IG with brick coping, built/opened 04/2006
    Hayward S244T Pro-series 300lb Sand Filter - vari-flo XL valve
    Goldline Controls Aquarite Turbo Cell SWG t-cell 15
    Hayward SP2607X10 Pump w/ Century Centurion .75HP motor (4th motor in 4 years all under warranty) Polaris 360

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    dayhiker's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    Quote Originally Posted by Fast411
    Patience, I have found, is one ingredient that is needed in most of these recipes for pool chemistry.

    I think lack of patience is one reason pool stores make money. They keep people bouncing off the wallls; dump all of this in and see what it does. Now dump all of this in to fix that and see what it does.

    Where as, a week, BBB, a pool calculator (praise God) and some patience will get your chemistry stabilized.

    I'll post how this slow removal goes...
    I totally agree. I'm steadily working on POP. I am a work in progress. I dealt with the issue much differently this year than last. I only have pronounced stains on the steps. I've thought about just letting it all fall where it may and just try and treat them. I haven't read about a sock method. I assume this is where you put maybe a half pound of AA in a sock and just scrub away until it dissolves away? I wonder how long it will last before it dissovles? Maybe 30 seconds or a minute?
    The avatar is Spalding from Caddyshack
    18x36 vinyl IG - approximately 24000 gal
    Jandy SHPM1.5 Pump (1.5 HP); Jandy APURE 1400 SWG; Polaris PB4-60Q Booster Pump; Jandy CL340 Cartridge Filter
    (3) 4'x12' Aquatherm solar panels
    Next project, pump sound enclosure and lots of pool landscaping [6tons of stone 8) funnnn]

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    dayhiker's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    3 weeks after citric treament and I'm still getting a reaction when I add chlorine. Last week it turned green when I added 182 oz to try and get it to FC=3. Yesterday I found FC=0 again. I added about 1qt of bleach at lunch, another when I got home from work and another at about 6am. The pool now has a slight green tinge, so I'll add more sequestrant.

    CYA - should be 70. It was 20 and I've added 10# of cya
    TA - 70
    pH - 7.2

    Is this just an issue of having a high sequestrant demand still?
    The avatar is Spalding from Caddyshack
    18x36 vinyl IG - approximately 24000 gal
    Jandy SHPM1.5 Pump (1.5 HP); Jandy APURE 1400 SWG; Polaris PB4-60Q Booster Pump; Jandy CL340 Cartridge Filter
    (3) 4'x12' Aquatherm solar panels
    Next project, pump sound enclosure and lots of pool landscaping [6tons of stone 8) funnnn]

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    Why don't you take a bucket of pool water, and add chlorine to that to see what kind of reaction you get. I'm curious if this more than the after affects of the AA treatment.

    Add 1 tsp of bleach to 1 gallon of water and describe to me what happens to the color of the water.
    What brand of sequesterant are you using?
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    dayhiker's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    Quote Originally Posted by frustratedpoolmom
    Why don't you take a bucket of pool water, and add chlorine to that to see what kind of reaction you get. I'm curious if this more than the after affects of the AA treatment.

    Add 1 tsp of bleach to 1 gallon of water and describe to me what happens to the color of the water.
    What brand of sequesterant are you using?

    I'll try that.

    I've been using Metal Free. The store I went to today didn't ahve that so I used Metal Magnet.

    I bought (2) 182's when it was time to start bringing the chlorine up. I get home to find out I had one leftover from last summer. I believe it was chlorox brand. These are from Dollar General. The Chlorox had no reaction...but then again, who knows what potency it was after the winter. Both times I've added from the off brand I've had a reaction. Last summer when I had to shock, I used the Dollar General stuff. I eventually quit having this reaction each time though.
    The avatar is Spalding from Caddyshack
    18x36 vinyl IG - approximately 24000 gal
    Jandy SHPM1.5 Pump (1.5 HP); Jandy APURE 1400 SWG; Polaris PB4-60Q Booster Pump; Jandy CL340 Cartridge Filter
    (3) 4'x12' Aquatherm solar panels
    Next project, pump sound enclosure and lots of pool landscaping [6tons of stone 8) funnnn]

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    Metal Free is not that effective, it is EDTA based, You want a sequesterant that is HEDP based (look for DEDP, Phosphonic acid derivative, or phosphonates on the label). Jacks Magic, Proteam Metal Magic, GLB Sequa Sol are a few good ones.

    We generally recommend against purchasing bleach from dollar stores, as the potentcy has come into question several times.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

  19. Back To Top    #19
    dayhiker's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    Quote Originally Posted by frustratedpoolmom
    Metal Free is not that effective, it is EDTA based, You want a sequesterant that is HEDP based (look for DEDP, Phosphonic acid derivative, or phosphonates on the label). Jacks Magic, Proteam Metal Magic, GLB Sequa Sol are a few good ones.

    We generally recommend against purchasing bleach from dollar stores, as the potentcy has come into question several times.

    Thanks on both. I'll look for those. The DG stuff I just grab since it's on my way home. I'll avoid it from here on out.

    Tonight I'll try the bucket test and report back.

    I don't know if you recall or not, but last summer when you were helping me with all of this, I put a crappy algaecide in. When the pool turned green you and JasonLion suspected a copper reaction. I need to just go to the pool store and get a full water test including metals. I've wanted to get the FC up before going so that I don't have to explain why I don't want to buy chlorine. I probably need to bite the bullet and go anyway.
    The avatar is Spalding from Caddyshack
    18x36 vinyl IG - approximately 24000 gal
    Jandy SHPM1.5 Pump (1.5 HP); Jandy APURE 1400 SWG; Polaris PB4-60Q Booster Pump; Jandy CL340 Cartridge Filter
    (3) 4'x12' Aquatherm solar panels
    Next project, pump sound enclosure and lots of pool landscaping [6tons of stone 8) funnnn]

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: Smarter Stain Removal

    LOL
    Just smile and nod and say Yes, I undertand and I have "XYZ" product at home, I'll add it when I get there...
    Hang in there, try not to get too frustrated, I'm sure it seems like its always something
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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