- May 22, 2009
- 42
frustratedpoolmom said:
Is there an actual name for it? When I search for sequesterant, I get a lot of chemical information, but no vendors.
Rebuilding the pool. Need help with start-up.
- Thread starter astroprojector
- Start date
Is there an actual name for it? When I search for sequesterant, I get a lot of chemical information, but no vendors.
I have not done a new plaster start up myself, but I think the steps are fairly straightforward, however I understand your hesitation and frustration because it's a lot of money and you don't want to screw it up, right? 
I recommend you follow the steps in the Pool School article, except in line number 5. Just focus on adjusting the PH. You don't need to do anything to the TA and CH at first, as Jason previously stated.
Then in line 7....we do elaborate more above, on how to add chlorine slowly. So say on day three, you add the CYA (via sock method) and you add 2 ppm of chlorine in the evening. The next morning before you leave for work, test the PH and adjust if necessary. You can test the PH when you get home, before you brush the pool, and adjust it if necessary.
The focus for you at the beginning is monitor the PH closely, and beginning on day 3 add the chlorine at 2ppm each evening until the CYA dissolves - then you refer to the CYA chart for your appropriate levels.
I think the key at first will be the brushing while filtering, not so much vacuming the dust up - the brushing will keep the dust circulating so the filter can catch it (then you backwash or clean the filter as the PSI increases). Is there anyone else who can brush once during the day while you are at work?
So fill, test, adjust ph, all while filtering and brushing. 3rd day you add CYA and 2ppm chlorine (evening), continuing to brush and monitor PH. Each evening, test the PH and Chlorine and adjust as necessary.
As you follow these steps feel free to post daily updates or ask for advice and we'll help walk you thru should any questions or situations arise. Hope this helps.
Hang in there, you are going to be fine!!!
Sequesterant: Let me find my notes from the last time I looked and I'll post back.
I recommend you follow the steps in the Pool School article, except in line number 5. Just focus on adjusting the PH. You don't need to do anything to the TA and CH at first, as Jason previously stated.
Then in line 7....we do elaborate more above, on how to add chlorine slowly. So say on day three, you add the CYA (via sock method) and you add 2 ppm of chlorine in the evening. The next morning before you leave for work, test the PH and adjust if necessary. You can test the PH when you get home, before you brush the pool, and adjust it if necessary.
The focus for you at the beginning is monitor the PH closely, and beginning on day 3 add the chlorine at 2ppm each evening until the CYA dissolves - then you refer to the CYA chart for your appropriate levels.
I think the key at first will be the brushing while filtering, not so much vacuming the dust up - the brushing will keep the dust circulating so the filter can catch it (then you backwash or clean the filter as the PSI increases). Is there anyone else who can brush once during the day while you are at work?
So fill, test, adjust ph, all while filtering and brushing. 3rd day you add CYA and 2ppm chlorine (evening), continuing to brush and monitor PH. Each evening, test the PH and Chlorine and adjust as necessary.
As you follow these steps feel free to post daily updates or ask for advice and we'll help walk you thru should any questions or situations arise. Hope this helps.
Hang in there, you are going to be fine!!!
Sequesterant: Let me find my notes from the last time I looked and I'll post back.
You want a sequesterant that is HEDP based (looik for DEDP, Phosphonic acid derivative, or phosphonates on the label). Jacks Magic, Proteam Metal Magic, GLB Sequa Sol are a few good ones.
You want the Jack's "Magenta", I believe:
sold at (just a few I found):
http://www.poolgeek.com/Jacks-Magic-The-Magenta-Stuff-P6923.aspx
http://www.jacksmagic.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=172
http://www.poolcenter.com/chemicals_poolstor_jacks_magic.htm
You want the Jack's "Magenta", I believe:
sold at (just a few I found):
http://www.poolgeek.com/Jacks-Magic-The-Magenta-Stuff-P6923.aspx
http://www.jacksmagic.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=172
http://www.poolcenter.com/chemicals_poolstor_jacks_magic.htm
In the Jack's Magic line, Blue is my favorite for new plaster startups. Magenta appears to be fine, and it is a little less expensive, but it is comparatively new, they haven't listed any of the ingredients by chemical name, and haven't posted a MSDS, so I am still skeptical.
- May 22, 2009
- 42
frustratedpoolmom said:I have not done a new plaster start up myself, but I think the steps are fairly straightforward, however I understand your hesitation and frustration because it's a lot of money and you don't want to screw it up, right?
I recommend you follow the steps in the Pool School article, except in line number 5. Just focus on adjusting the PH. You don't need to do anything to the TA and CH at first, as Jason previously stated.
Then in line 7....we do elaborate more above, on how to add chlorine slowly. So say on day three, you add the CYA (via sock method) and you add 2 ppm of chlorine in the evening. The next morning before you leave for work, test the PH and adjust if necessary. You can test the PH when you get home, before you brush the pool, and adjust it if necessary.
The focus for you at the beginning is monitor the PH closely, and beginning on day 3 add the chlorine at 2ppm each evening until the CYA dissolves - then you refer to the CYA chart for your appropriate levels.
I think the key at first will be the brushing while filtering, not so much vacuming the dust up - the brushing will keep the dust circulating so the filter can catch it (then you backwash or clean the filter as the PSI increases). Is there anyone else who can brush once during the day while you are at work?
So fill, test, adjust ph, all while filtering and brushing. 3rd day you add CYA and 2ppm chlorine (evening), continuing to brush and monitor PH. Each evening, test the PH and Chlorine and adjust as necessary.
As you follow these steps feel free to post daily updates or ask for advice and we'll help walk you thru should any questions or situations arise. Hope this helps.
Hang in there, you are going to be fine!!!
Sequesterant: Let me find my notes from the last time I looked and I'll post back.
Thanks for the steps, but now I have more questions:
1. Do I need to adjust pH right after I fill the pool or later, if later then when?
2. How do I add CYA using a shock method? If I want to achieve a level of CYA 50.
3. Start-up step 6: "After the first 48 hours vacuum daily before brushing using a vacuum head with brushes (such as used in vinyl pools) instead of wheels to prevent marring the plaster. Clean filter after vacuuming." So do I vacuum with brush that I indicated earlier post or no vacuum at all, just brush?
1. Good question - I would say allow it to circulate for 24 hours and then begin to test daily. If your fill water is 7.5, I don't know how long it will take exactly for it to begin to rise. So just to be safe test after 24 hours and adjust it down as necessary, so if you see it's above 7.6 on day 2 go ahead and add acid - then daily or anytime you see it drifting up above the recommended level of 7.6. It will rise rapidly at first and continue to drift up more slowly for up to the first year, so daily testing is important.
2. the sock method is to add about 1-2 pounds of granular CYA at a time, into a sock- yes tube sock or long dress sock - tie a knot at the top and set it in your skimmer, off to the side, so it doesn't block the flow of water. This allows you to continue to backwash/clean the filter as needed without losing the CYA that's slowly dissolving. Depending on the flow of water it should dissolve in a day or so.
Use the Pool Calc to determine how many pounds of CYA you'll need to reach 50ppm. But just do 1-2 pounds at a time so it will dissolve better.
Don't bother to retest for the CYA level until about 1 week after the last of it has been dissolved. It can take that long to show up on tests. But within 24 hours of it dissolving out of the sock assume it's in there. So if you put in enough to reach 40ppm, assume your level is 40 and adjust your FC as necessary. With the next sock load, if you put in enough to reach 50, assume it's in there, and the next day increase your FC min level to 4 instead of 2. Does that make sense?
3. I would say for the first few weeks just brush with the brush in the link you posted earlier. No sense in risking surface damage.
2. the sock method is to add about 1-2 pounds of granular CYA at a time, into a sock- yes tube sock or long dress sock - tie a knot at the top and set it in your skimmer, off to the side, so it doesn't block the flow of water. This allows you to continue to backwash/clean the filter as needed without losing the CYA that's slowly dissolving. Depending on the flow of water it should dissolve in a day or so.
Use the Pool Calc to determine how many pounds of CYA you'll need to reach 50ppm. But just do 1-2 pounds at a time so it will dissolve better.
Don't bother to retest for the CYA level until about 1 week after the last of it has been dissolved. It can take that long to show up on tests. But within 24 hours of it dissolving out of the sock assume it's in there. So if you put in enough to reach 40ppm, assume your level is 40 and adjust your FC as necessary. With the next sock load, if you put in enough to reach 50, assume it's in there, and the next day increase your FC min level to 4 instead of 2. Does that make sense?
3. I would say for the first few weeks just brush with the brush in the link you posted earlier. No sense in risking surface damage.
There isn't one correct way to do it, thus the varied answers. For example, on sequestrant: sequestrant is not required. However, it can help control the amount of plaster dust you need to deal with and prevent metal stains from becoming embedded into the plaster (and thus impossible to remove). That makes it worth using for some people and not worth using for other people, depending on your time/cost tradeoffs.
By far the most important "rule" is to consult with the people/company applying your plaster and to follow what they say. You do not want to do anything which could risk voiding your warranty on the plaster work.
You need to test the PH at least once a day to start, possibly more or less often after that depending on how things go. Your goal is to keep the PH between 7.2 and 7.8 or perhaps 8.0. If the PH is rising really rapidly, that could mean testing and adjusting more often, if PH turns out to be relatively stable then you might be able to test and adjust less often. The basic plan is to test the PH, if it looks like it will go above 7.8 before the next time you will be able to test it, then lower it down to 7.2 with muriatic acid.
During a new plaster startup, you will typically use trichlor pucks, which add chlorine and CYA and lower the PH. That approach is good because it raised the CYA level slowly, which is good for the plaster.
You need to get any plaster dust that does appear out of the pool. There are various ways that can be done. If you have a main drain, you can often brush the plaster dust into the drain. You may be able to scoop the dust up with a fine mesh leaf net (though that never worked for me). Or you may need to vacuum the dust up. If you vacuum, you want to make sure you don't gouge into the pool surface or use too much suction.
Keep in mind that the pool surface gets harder slowly. In the first hour the plaster is like toothpaste, easily moved around. In the first few days the plaster will be firm but can be dented fairly easily. In the first three or four weeks the plaster can be dented by sharp pressure in a small area. If there is a small dent, the pool will still "work" it just won't look as good as it might. A large dent could be more serious, but is far far less likely.
By far the most important "rule" is to consult with the people/company applying your plaster and to follow what they say. You do not want to do anything which could risk voiding your warranty on the plaster work.
You need to test the PH at least once a day to start, possibly more or less often after that depending on how things go. Your goal is to keep the PH between 7.2 and 7.8 or perhaps 8.0. If the PH is rising really rapidly, that could mean testing and adjusting more often, if PH turns out to be relatively stable then you might be able to test and adjust less often. The basic plan is to test the PH, if it looks like it will go above 7.8 before the next time you will be able to test it, then lower it down to 7.2 with muriatic acid.
During a new plaster startup, you will typically use trichlor pucks, which add chlorine and CYA and lower the PH. That approach is good because it raised the CYA level slowly, which is good for the plaster.
You need to get any plaster dust that does appear out of the pool. There are various ways that can be done. If you have a main drain, you can often brush the plaster dust into the drain. You may be able to scoop the dust up with a fine mesh leaf net (though that never worked for me). Or you may need to vacuum the dust up. If you vacuum, you want to make sure you don't gouge into the pool surface or use too much suction.
Keep in mind that the pool surface gets harder slowly. In the first hour the plaster is like toothpaste, easily moved around. In the first few days the plaster will be firm but can be dented fairly easily. In the first three or four weeks the plaster can be dented by sharp pressure in a small area. If there is a small dent, the pool will still "work" it just won't look as good as it might. A large dent could be more serious, but is far far less likely.
- May 22, 2009
- 42
JasonLion said:
I was going to use conditioner for CYA and bleach for Ch. Are you saying that it is better to use the tablets? After how many hours should I place the tablets or using the conditioner and bleach is OK?
As I understand correctly:
1. The first two days I just need to monitor the pH and just have the filter running.
2. After 48 hours I can start brushing and continue monitor pH. I most likely get the sequestrant to control the plaster dust, because I will not be able to brush twice a day. I should brush with the regular brush and not the vacuum attachment.
3. After 72 hours, I should adjust the CYA and Ch and continue brushing.
- May 22, 2009
- 42
They can look like this one:
http://www.poolsupplies.com/chemicals/automatic-chlorinators.asp
It makes using the tablets very simple, and might appeal to you with your work situation...
(They are also handy to have when you will be away on a week's vacation and need away to add chlorine to the pool.)
You just put the tablets in, adjust the setting, and it delivers a steady dose of chlorine, while the acid in the tablets will help keep the ph in check. You'll still have to test daily and adjust the levels manually if necessary. Once the CYA is where you want it you shut the chlorinator off and use bleach.
You could also go with a floater type dispenser, but those can be messy, you can't adjust the output and the tablets could leak out.
You can still do the manual bleach/CYA way if you don't have a chlorinator, just adding carefully as discussed above.
I think you're getting a handle on things.
http://www.poolsupplies.com/chemicals/automatic-chlorinators.asp
It makes using the tablets very simple, and might appeal to you with your work situation...
(They are also handy to have when you will be away on a week's vacation and need away to add chlorine to the pool.)
You just put the tablets in, adjust the setting, and it delivers a steady dose of chlorine, while the acid in the tablets will help keep the ph in check. You'll still have to test daily and adjust the levels manually if necessary. Once the CYA is where you want it you shut the chlorinator off and use bleach.
You could also go with a floater type dispenser, but those can be messy, you can't adjust the output and the tablets could leak out.
You can still do the manual bleach/CYA way if you don't have a chlorinator, just adding carefully as discussed above.
I think you're getting a handle on things.
We don't normally recommend trichlor pucks/tablets. But during a fresh plaster startup they are handy. Trichlor adds chlorine and CYA and also lowers the PH. You want all three of those things during a fresh plaster startup. You can use bleach, conditioner, and acid instead, it is just a little more work. Once startup is complete, using trichlor will no longer be a good idea (except in unusual situations).
- May 22, 2009
- 42
Update.
The concrete is done, but because of rains the plastering will be done on Monday.
I am freethinking now about the plaster and want to get the pebble surface. Is pebble start up any different than plaster start up?
The concrete is done, but because of rains the plastering will be done on Monday.
I am freethinking now about the plaster and want to get the pebble surface. Is pebble start up any different than plaster start up?
- May 22, 2009
- 42
So, if I have 16K gal pool, I would need 5.6 Gal of acid.
Equipment is off and start brushing after 48 hours.
Do I neutralize the acid back to 0?
Equipment is off and start brushing after 48 hours.
Do I neutralize the acid back to 0?
I have never heard of a pebble finish contractor that does not do the first few days of startup for you, including adding the acid. The exact amount of acid and timing of the acid addition will affect the appearance and durability of the pebble finish, so it is something you want done by a professional.
- May 22, 2009
- 42
I talked to the contractor and this is what he said.
On Monday they will apply the pebble. On Tuesday they will do an acid wash and fill the pool with water. Then all I have to do is turn on the equipment and balance the water.
On Monday they will apply the pebble. On Tuesday they will do an acid wash and fill the pool with water. Then all I have to do is turn on the equipment and balance the water.
Alright, that makes sense. The acid wash will do essentially the same thing an acid start, but takes less time. You will be starting from the last step in the acid start procedure. The main things you need to do are to keep the PH between 7.2 and 7.8 and brush at least daily for the first week or two. With pebble, the rise in PH TA and CH will not be as dramatic as it is with straight plaster, but still significant. Between the pebble and the acid wash the amount of plaster dust should be minimal.
- May 22, 2009
- 42
The job is done. Contractor, brushed and did an acid wash. The pool is being filled with water now.
So, once it is full, I will turn on the equipment and let it run non-stop for 24 hours and monitor the pH so it is between 7.2 and 7.8. When do I need to add the conditioner?
So, once it is full, I will turn on the equipment and let it run non-stop for 24 hours and monitor the pH so it is between 7.2 and 7.8. When do I need to add the conditioner?