Red and Black "Mould"

[sonyak]

My husband and I have an automatic pool filler installed in our indoor pool. About 2 weeks ago, I noticed that I was fighting to keep my chlorine up. That's unusual, since the pool is not losing chlorine to the sun. We opened the pool filler area (located by the skimmer), only to find that there was copious amounts of red and black slimy gunk in the filler water. This explained why we had slimy floors for a couple of days and why I was fighting with the chlorine. However, we can't figure out how to get rid of it.
First we plugged the hole that enters the pool, and shop vac'd out the section, sucking up all the water and the mould. Then we dumped a cup of bleach down it. My husband then got the scrub brush and proceeded to scrub down the float mechanism that's inside the filler area.
So we continued to monitor this area, and we noticed white slime coming from what we think is the "overfill" pipe in the auto filler. We tried another dose of bleach, but that still hasn't helped.
Here's where my big concern is. Tuesday morning my son was admitted to the hospital because he was coughing up blood. It turns out he has a bacterial pneumonia. Then after the lab tests came back, we discovered that he has a gram positive and a gram negative bacteria in his system, which is why one antibiotic wasn't doing the trick.
I am afraid that he has caught this bacteria from the pool, but I have no way of knowing what kind of bacteria was/is growing.
I'd like to identify the bacteria, so when the lab identifies the bacteria (specifically) that's causing my son to be sick, I will know if the pool was the cause or it was just a freak thing that happened.
Either way, I need to know what's growing, why it's growing and how to get rid of it.

On a side note, we do have a friend who has some "skin" condition that was swimming in the pool just prior to us starting the fight with the chlorine. I don't know what the condition is, but the morning after he was swimming, the pool had a yucky, brownish film all over the bottom of the pool. We ended up shocking the pool and giving it a thorough vac. I'm wondering if that might have triggered this growth in the pool filler. And maybe I should have cleaned out the filter too.

I'm looking for any and all suggestions, as I am seriously concerned about the health of my son. He's severely disabled and immune compromised, and I would be devastated to know that the pool made him sick, especially when it's his largest source of joy.

Thanks in advance.

I do have photos of the water filler, when we first opened it and saw the stuff growing. I can upload them too, if anyone thinks that it might help diagnose things.

 

[Beez]

While, I'm not qualified to answer your question, I would like to offer best wishes and a speedy recovery for your son.

All the best,
Dave

 

[sonyak]

Thanks for the kind words Dave. I'm hopefully they'll be able to isolate the bacteria and kill it off soon.
Unfortunately, he's highly contagious, and in isolation, but has managed to pass this along to my husband and I. But we caught it quickly, so it's less likely we're going to be as ill as he is.

 

[chem geek]

I'm sorry that your son is ill. Obviously, you should be taking the advice of medical professionals. Any info you get here would just be supplemental regarding possibilities in pool water, but is not medical advice.

Unless your chlorine level got close to zero, it's unlikely that bacteria was able to grow in the pool. Of course, anything is possible, such as some biofilm forming in the filler area (that doesn't get much chlorine) that then broke off into the pool and made a beeline to a swimmer to get into their nose. If the chlorine level did get close to zero for an extended period of time (half a day or longer), then bacteria could grow to the point where it could overwhelm one's immune system if ingested. The slimy floor of the pool area does probably indicate that the chlorine level got close to zero (and probably for much longer than half a day) as the SWG wasn't able to keep up with the increased chlorine demand. So maybe in fact that is what happened.

It seems unlikely that whatever your friend had as a skin condition resulted in a slimy film all over the pool in less than 24 hours, though bacteria do grow quite quickly (double in population every 15 to 60 minutes). Though you might be able to feel a biofilm getting formed after some number of hours in some localized area, it would normally take at least a couple of days to get it thick enough and spread out enough to be the way you described. Also, the chlorine in the pool should have killed off whatever was introduced by your friend (unless your SWG was broken or not outputting enough). My guess is that this mold or whatever it is in your filler got into the main body of pool water and overwhelmed the chlorine level and grew faster than chlorine could kill it, but that this started before your friend went swimming (i.e. it was a coincidence).

You should probably take a sample of this mold or bacterial slime or whatever this is to your doctor or the hospital for analysis (of course, be careful about doing this, using gloves). If you shocked your pool and the slime on the floor is gone, then it's probably too late to find the bacteria in the pool water itself, though you could always take a sample of that as well for analysis (but if you measure FC in that sample, then it's unlikely there is bacteria left to grow in that sample). You could also contact your friend to find out the specific nature of his skin condition (even getting a sample, if he's willing to go to the hospital) though I think it's less likely that he is the source of this infection (but one never knows for sure).

 

[sonyak]

I'm a real stickler for the chlorine levels in the pool. I do the dpd test every day, to make sure that we're always within the range required. I don't think I've ever seen it lower than 1.5, so I don't think that lack of chlorine is an issue.
I contacted one of the local pool companies, and they've never heard of this happening before.

As for the scum after my friend was swimming, it wasn't a thick coating, it was just a slimy brown coating, but I could still see the bottom of the pool. It looked like someone had exfoliated in the pool, after not doing it for years... I wouldn't say that every single spot on the bottom of the pool was covered, but it was significant enough that when we walked into the room, that's the first thing we saw in the pool.
I wonder if temp might be a factor. Things like to grow in warm temperatures, and the pool is at a constant 88 degrees and the room is at 92.

Maybe I'll call around to some local water testing labs and see if they can figure out what's in the water. There's no red or black mould any more, but there is still the white slimy stuff all inside the water filler tank, even after scrubbing and sanitizing.

Our physicians don't have much to say about the pool and how it might have related to my son's illness. But I'm concerned that maybe we caused it, so I want to find out what's in the water. This way when the hospital lab comes back with the strain of bacteria that he's infected with, I will be able to tell if it was related or not.

I'm trying to get my husband to email me the photos, so I can post them. They're on my computer, and he has that at the hospital with my son. I'll post them when he finds them.

 

[sonyak]

Here are the pictures I took before I cleaned the cavity out with the shop vac.

http://picasaweb.google.com/sonyaknipfe ... directlink

 

[Beez]

Here are the pictures I took before I cleaned the cavity out with the shop vac.

Good-night-a-livin' that is certainly some virulent looking stuff...

 

[duraleigh]

so I don't think that lack of chlorine is an issue.

Sonya,

I would think that is the issue. Adequate levels of chlorine will prevent virtually anything organic from gaining a foothold in your pool.

If the circulation is inadequate in certain parts of the pool, that, in turn, makes the chlorine level inadequate at that spot which can result in an unsanitary condition.

 

[sonyak]

If the circulation is inadequate in certain parts of the pool, that, in turn, makes the chlorine level inadequate at that spot which can result in an unsanitary condition.

You know, now that you put it that way, there really isn't a lot of circulation around that area of the pool. I only have 1 jet in the shallow end that pushes the water around to the skimmer in the deep end. Then I have the waterfall of the hot tub running. But when I think about where the dirt shows on the floor, it's almost always in the corner by the water filler.

How do I go about fixing this? My pool is indoor and it's encased in concrete, with in floor heating...So I can't add another jet to the pool, without major renovations.
Do you think adding a chlorine puck in a sock and hanging it in the water filler would help eliminate this problem?
The only other reason why I thought it couldn't have been a lack of chlorine is because we dumped about 2 cups (total) of bleach directly into the water filler, with the fresh water turned off, and it didn't help at all.

If you look at the photos, the last photo in the first row shows a small white plastic insert above the waterline. We think that's the overfill. We're still getting junk out of that spot, even when the water is clean around the float.
I talked to my pool guy, and he gave me his usual response of "I've never seen that happen before". Anything that's happened in the pool, that requires us to ask a professional for advice, ends up with the exact same response. I'm wondering how he survived in business for the last 20 years! But that's just a whole other story....

 

[polyvue]

Unless the chlorine is fed into the line prior to the auto-fill this part of the equipment is only getting whatever residual chlorine or chloramine that is present in the incoming fill water -- and presuming its simultaneous use as drinking water that won't be very much.

I don't know why two cups of undiluted liquid chlorine didn't have an effect on what looks to be mold, but perhaps certain types of bacteria and fungi are resistant to the concentration of chlorine that was applied.

Do you think adding a chlorine puck in a sock and hanging it in the water filler would help eliminate this problem?

I'd be worried about the acid effect from any puck you'd put in this area. Even adding a cup of chlorine now and then might have a deleterious outcome on the metal parts.

 

[sonyak]

I highly doubt that there was chlorine fed into the line prior to being attached to the pool. I'm wondering if I should detach the line at the source and pour some chlorine down it.
As far as I can tell, the float mechanics are all plastic, except for 1 screw on the top. I think maybe I need to take it out, scrub it up and see what's happening.
I went down there today to check, and it now has white strands of gunk floating in it. Almost looks like what's left over in a pot after making poached eggs. Strands of egg white...
:grrrr:
I am soooooo frustrated right now.

 

[duraleigh]

Sonya,

Keep in mind the purpose of chlorine is to prevent organic material from growing in your pool. If you have mold (organic material) in your pool, you must clean it up physically and then increase the amount of chlorine you have been using so it will not reform.

Think of it as a preventative rather than a cure. If the mold is already there, it must be removed physically before the chlorine will start preventing it from forming. Simply applying chlorine to existing mold without physically removing it will make for poor results.

Once it's cleaned up, you must alter the circulation so additional chlorine is constantly available in those spots where it formed previously.

Do you have CYA in the pool?
If so, How much?

 

[PoolGuyNJ]

Is the autofill connected to a well or city water?

Scott

 

[geekgranny]

I had a serious biofilm develop in my 550 gal free standing spa this past summer. It is covered and kept at 100 F. It showed signs of developing for a couple of months. When it got bad enough, even after two flushes (24 hours each with double strength spa flush) it picked up again and eventually I developed a serious bladder infection that took rounds of two different antibiotics to cure. At that point I had to do a serious decontamination of the spa system pipes with extremely high chlorine levels to knock it out.

My biofilm made the spa slimy between shockings with chlorine, when I was attempting to get rid of it with shocking prior to the decontamination and signs of it would return pretty quickly after shocking, i.e. the cartridge filter and vessel would be covered with brown and white jelly substance similar to yours. At the time I was changing out the filter cartridges every few days. If I went more than a few days the slime in vessel and on cartridge would be shockingly abundant (pun intended). Although I was thoroughly cleaning the filter cartridges and soaking them in chlorine solution it appears that there was enough resistant film in the jet pipes to let it survive. The jet pipes aren't constantly bathed with chlorinated water as the circulation pipes are. BTW.... I have four cartridges that I change out every few days.

You may be looking at a super decontamination process, with extremely high levels of chlorine, to get rid of the resistant film in your system and pipes. This will probably require a drain and refill also.

I agree that you probably need more circulation too. There are several ways to do this. One of the easiest ways would be to use a robotic cleaner that circulates a few thousand gallons of water per hour while running. Think more along the lines of circulation benefits rather than cleaning. Many of the robotic cleaners, like Aquabot, come with a very fine filter bag that filters down to less than 5 microns, actually more on the lines of 2 microns, if I am remembering right. The bags can also be washed in machine, on gentle/cold. I don't use bleach with mine but do use vinegar. If the chlorine in your pool water is sufficient it should act as a disinfectant for the filter bag. You could possibly go with a less expensive above ground cleaner if you don't have much variation in depth of pool (steep inclines).

Also, a good frequent soaking of filter cartridges should help. You really don't know how much biofilm has taken up residence in the filter.

I agree that this problem you have has probably been developing over time. It is quite common in spas and your pool is a really big spa.

The idea of putting a chlorine tab in the fill bucket sounds good. You can get smaller tabs than the 3". I have used 1" dichlor. They dissolve faster than the large tabs so the chlorine would be more available right in the bucket. There are also tabs and sticks that dissolve more slowly. You would just have to experiment with different tabs to get the feed right. It would be nice if you could find a product that doesn't have CYA in it.

Hopes this helps some. I surely hope your son gets better soon. I'm sending strong positive thoughts your way.

gg=alice

 

[polyvue]

I agree that you probably need more circulation too. There are several ways to do this. One of the easiest ways would be to use a robotic cleaner that circulates a few thousand gallons of water per hour while running. Think more along the lines of circulation benefits rather than cleaning.

Some great ideas here... especially using a cleaner to provide add'l circulation. Don't even need a robotic type, just additional running time for any automatic suction or pressure side cleaner will help circulation.

Perhap it will take higher concentrations of chlorine to kill off anything growing in the fill, but would have some concern over long term application (using tabs/pucks) in or near an area that contained metal parts.

 

[geekgranny]

I agree that you probably need more circulation too. There are several ways to do this. One of the easiest ways would be to use a robotic cleaner that circulates a few thousand gallons of water per hour while running. Think more along the lines of circulation benefits rather than cleaning.

Some great ideas here... especially using a cleaner to provide add'l circulation. Don't even need a robotic type, just additional running time for any automatic suction or pressure side cleaner will help circulation.

Perhap it will take higher concentrations of chlorine to kill off anything growing in the fill, but would have some concern over long term application (using tabs/pucks) in or near an area that contained metal parts.

What I really love about my robotic is that it is so much cheaper to run for extended periods. It only uses pennies of electricity compared to dollars running the main pump for suction or pressure cleaners.

Another advantage and the reason I added a robotic to my arsenal of cleaners is that when you can't run the main pump you can run the robotic. I used it first when I had the major leak in 07 and didn't want to run the main pump when the water was way down below the skimmer and returns. I, also, had a partial blockage in the main drain (which I cleared out when I drained and acid washed summer of 08) so I wasn't getting sufficient flow through the main drain to run the main pump. The Vero 300 (like Aquabot Turbo T-Jet) circulates about 4000 gallons per hour, "they" say, using regular bag.

On a side note..... now that I have my pool partially closed I'm using Vero to clean pool and circulate the water. I, also, ran it under the ice after our BIG Freeze. Today I have to add acid to bring pH down and liquid chlorine (not at the same time of course). Instead of spending the time stirring the water, I can heavily dilute the acid expecially, walk around the pool pouring small amounts, and let the robot circulate the chems while we spend the day watching football.

We love the Vikings, and The Geezer, but GO COWBOYS. We are keeping ourselves isolated and watching last nights game this morning. Please don't tell me who won.

gg=alice

 

[sonyak]

If the mold is already there, it must be removed physically before the chlorine will start preventing it from forming. Simply applying chlorine to existing mold without physically removing it will make for poor results.

The first time I saw it, I sucked out the mould with the shop vac and dumped it in the snow outside. Then cleaned up the shop vac.
We continue to have little white bits reappear in the filler area, but no more red or black mould. I have scrubbed down the mechanism in the filler port and the walls and then sucked that water out too. We then added the bleach to the area to try and kill whatever was left.

Do you have CYA in the pool?
If so, How much?

I do have some, but haven't tested for it in the last week or so because of the whole hospitalization with my son. He's home today, so I'll get down there and test it. How would that affect what's happening with the pool film?

Once it's cleaned up, you must alter the circulation so additional chlorine is constantly available in those spots where it formed previously.

We were thinking about cutting the fill line, and attaching at the entrance and exit of the SWG piping, so that if the water needs to be topped up, then it's run through the SWG first, and then into the pool

Is the autofill connected to a well or city water

- It's connected to the city water.

Many of the robotic cleaners, like Aquabot, come with a very fine filter bag that filters down to less than 5 microns, actually more on the lines of 2 microns, if I am remembering right.

I've never seen an Aquabot. I was sold a barracuda cleaner. What is it, and how does it work? Would it replace the barracuda? Doesn't it need to run through the filter, or use the pump to power it?

Do you think there are pool companies that will test the water for organic materials? Maybe they can give me an idea of what specific thing I need to kill the rest of this off.
I've scrubbed my walls and my floors, have the filter running on it's lowest, because, as I understand it, that's when it's most efficiently filtering the water over the cartridge.

it appears that there was enough resistant film in the jet pipes to let it survive.

I've wondered if this might be the issue, but how do I get to pipes that are encased in concrete? Is there a brush or a snake that has brushes on it, that can be fed through the lines? The other ones, directly attached to equipment shouldn't be difficult to figure out. But I also have water running through the Dectron, so I guess I need to unhook that took and figure out how to clean the pipes. What did you use to decontaminate the pipes on your spa?

What would you recommend I use to clean the cartridge with? It's a huge thing that's going to need a bathtub to soak in.

Thanks, to all of you for your assistance. I'm going to fight this things until I kill it. If I have to dump the pool and sanitize the whole thing over again, then I will. It's just a crappy job to try and do in the dead of winter...

 

[PoolGuyNJ]

1) Hose the cartridges down and soak them in a clean trash can, two at a time, with 3-5 gallons of bleach and fill the rest of the way with water for a half hour. Then hose them down again. Change the water and bleach for the next set. The brace that holds the top of the cartridges in alignment should also be soaked.

2) Scrub the inside of the filter tank halves with a heavy bleach mix and rinse. Wash and rinse the tank O-Ring separately.

That should decontaminate the filter.

3) If you are running the pump on it's lowest speed, turn it up to about 600-750 rpm to improve circulation in the pool. This will still be highly effective for filtering and allow the chems to circulate more effectively in the pool.

4) Add a 1/4 cup of bleach to the auto fill daily for 3 or 4 days, then weekly for a month. Wait a half hour and push the float down to flush it and the supply line feeding it. If the fill line is connected to a garden hose spigot, replace the hose too. Double ended hoses can be found in Home Depot, usually by the large appliances.
4b) Using a cut, uncolored brick or paver as a stand in the autofill, set a 1" trichlor tab on it. Don't let it interfere with the float. Replace as needed. When they get small, replace. You don't want the small piece to get in the pool and sit on the finish or fall off the brick and sit on the plastic.

That should decontaminate the autofill and filter.

WRT your question about CYA , it was just in case UV was causing the chlorine to dissipate too quickly.

Don't move where the auto fill line discharges to the pool return plumbing. It would likely break the float valve because of the pressure.

Aquabot and similar units, like the Dolphin , Nitro, and Prowler are electric. They have a power cord. They use an on board pump and drive that sucks a very significant amount of water from under it, through a capture bag where it is filtered, and discharges out the top. They are not cheap but the better units are very, very effective!

HTH,

Scott

 

[duraleigh]

Sonya,

If you have measurable CYA in your pool (20+) 1.5ppm chlorine is simply not effective in sanitizing your pool. Please refer to chem geek's CYA/chlorine chart in pool school.

I would suggest you do the easy parts first.

1. Test your water accurately - pH FC CC TA CYA

2. Bring your FC up to the level suggested in the chart at least.....probably higher but I'd like to see the test results first.

3. Sit and wait. I suspect 90% of your problem was loow chlorine. If you will test frequently and keep the chlorine at adequate or higher levels, I think the mold (and all other organics) will disapear

4. The sit and wait period may take a few days. Test your pool daily for the time being. Your FC will drop daily if organics are in the pool. Once the FC begins to stay in the pool without dropping, your pool has been sanitized.

What does the water look like right now? Crystal? cloudy?

Longer term, search for inexpensive ways you can increase circulation in the areas where you had a problem........that (along with keeping the chlorine higher) may well be all you have to do to get your pool back in shape.

Just curious, why do you have an auto-fill on an indoor pool? The convenience outdoors make sense (I don't personally like them....source of trouble) but it would seem to provide little benefit indoors.

 

[sonyak]

ust curious, why do you have an auto-fill on an indoor pool? The convenience outdoors make sense (I don't personally like them....source of trouble) but it would seem to provide little benefit indoors.

I'm not sure why we have one. The pool installer just put one in as part of what he does. I certainly didn't request it. The pool is about 5' away from an interior water spigot, so it's not like it's a big inconvenience. And at this point, I'm certainly cursing his reasoning for installing it. Wonder if I should just seal it off and run a hose to the pool when I need to.

The water is currently crystal clear. You'd never know that I'm fighting with organics at all. There is no chlorine odour, which is good.

If the fill line is connected to a garden hose spigot, replace the hose too.

The pool filler is a plumbed line from my mechanical room, directly to the pool, with a valve to shut the water off when needed. I'll take some photos.

As for the cartridges, I have 1 gigantic cartridge in the filter, that requires 2 people to lift. I'll see if we can get it to fit into a garbage can. Does any of the cartridge cleaning products work well, or is bleach the only option.

WRT your question about CYA , it was just in case UV was causing the chlorine to dissipate too quickly.

I doubt the UV is causing the chlorine to dissipate too quickly, as it's indoor and we don't get a lot of direct sunlight on the water. Every pool company I've gone to locally to get chemicals, as questioned why I want to put CYA in an indoor pool. Every one of them (10 so far) has said that it is a waste of money to purchase chemicals that should only be used in an outdoor pool. I bought it anyway.
I'll run down to the pool, take some more photos and water readings, which might help diagnose things.

Thanks all for helping me figure this mess out.