HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES WITH TOTAL CONTROL

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rmklaw

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Aug 27, 2009
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Happy Thanksgiving to all. I need some help from this learned Forum. I replaced my Whisperflo 1.5 HP with an Intelliflo VS-SVRS. My problem is that with the sloar on (two story house), the pump will not even prime at times. If I turn off the solar valve, the pump primes OK, but after it stabilizes, the SVRS Kicks-in and it stops as if it would detect blockage. I then restart and it works fine. Never had any problems with the Whisperflo. I also just checked starting prime with empty lines and it primes in less than 10 seconds to full basket and no air. One thing I did noticed: When I move the three way valve so I get vaccum from the dedicated sweep line, I hear noise (like air or bubbles) in the suction side and vaccum gauge drops about 3-4" hg. I don't know if that indicates vaccum line air leak.

My readings with the solar on are:
at 3110 RPM, Vaccum 18 and Pressure 22+3 for a total dynamic head of 78 (with solar off, total dynamic head is 60)
at 2700 RPM, Vaccum 13 and Pressure 16+3 for a total dynamic head of 58 (with solar off, total dynamic head is 55)

Any suggestions on what could be wrong? I am concerned that even using automation for the solar to kick in after the pump is running will not help because the SVRS turns it off and then back on.

Any way to disable the SVRS sensor? Thanks.
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

rmklaw said:
My readings with the solar on are:
at 3110 RPM, Vaccum 18 and Pressure 22+3 for a total dynamic head of 78 (with solar off, total dynamic head is 60)
at 2700 RPM, Vaccum 13 and Pressure 16+3 for a total dynamic head of 58 (with solar off, total dynamic head is 55)
Click to expand...

Just to confirm what you are saying. 3110 RPM, Vacuum = 16 in hg or 18 feet of head and Pressure = 9.5 PSI for 22 feet of head? If correct, I would say there is something wrong with the suction side of the plumbing. Suction head should be much less than pressure head or the pump may not work so well and would cause the SVRS to kick in. What PSI and in hg where you running at with the Whisperflo?

You might check for any valves closed and/or blockage in the suction lines.
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

Hi mark. At start up the pump starts at 3110 RPM. The vaccum gauge reading at the drain plug is 18" hg and the pressure at the filter is 22 psi plus 3 psi for the filter height. This calculates to a dynamic head of 78. Without the solar on the dynamic head drops to 60.

With this setting the pump keeps trying to prime but can't get water in the basket. If I close the solar valve and divert through regular heating unit, the pump primes right away. In other words, I can get the system running by starting in NON-SOLAR mode manually and in about 5-10 minutes, turning the solar on.

I have taken readings for vaccum and pressure from 1100 RPM to 3110 RPM at 200 RPM increments and everything tracks OK and there is no blockage. Seems like the Intelliflo has problems priming with the 2 story run of the solar on. The challenge is to figure a way to have the controller Compool turn the solar system on 5-10 minutes AFTER the Intelliflo pump has been running. I have not found a way to do it since the temperature sensors differential turn the diverter valve to solar hours before my pump is scheduled to turn on. Any thoughts? Thanks.
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

rmklaw said:
Hi mark. At start up the pump starts at 3110 RPM. The vaccum gauge reading at the drain plug is 18" hg and the pressure at the filter is 22 psi plus 3 psi for the filter height. This calculates to a dynamic head of 78. Without the solar on the dynamic head drops to 60.

With this setting the pump keeps trying to prime but can't get water in the basket. If I close the solar valve and divert through regular heating unit, the pump primes right away. In other words, I can get the system running by starting in NON-SOLAR mode manually and in about 5-10 minutes, turning the solar on.

I have taken readings for vaccum and pressure from 1100 RPM to 3110 RPM at 200 RPM increments and everything tracks OK and there is no blockage. Seems like the Intelliflo has problems priming with the 2 story run of the solar on. The challenge is to figure a way to have the controller Compool turn the solar system on 5-10 minutes AFTER the Intelliflo pump has been running. I have not found a way to do it since the temperature sensors differential turn the diverter valve to solar hours before my pump is scheduled to turn on. Any thoughts? Thanks.
Click to expand...

Ok, I think I understand now although you should add 3 feet for the filter height not 3 PSI so you really have 74 feet of head but that is not part of your problem. Given the pressure you have, the solar system should prime easily. However, 18" hg is still very very high for solar engaged so something is not right there and that level could easily trip SVRS.

The pump should remain primed between runs so there should not be any air in the pump basket when it turns on. This means that air is getting into the system between runs. Do you have a check valve after the filter but before the solar valve? You should.

Describe the plumbing. Pipe size, length, number of pipe runs pool to pad, number of suction ports, number of return ports.

Also, even though everything tracks ok at multiple RPM does not mean that you do not have a blockage. A suction side blockage will show up as high vacuum which is exactly what you have.
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

Thanks again Mark. The pump does not lose prime between runs. The pump strainer remains full to the top all night. If I start it without the solar, it just goes on normally. However, with solar on, I see all the air through the check valves and slowly the pump strainer level goes down. I tried suction from pool only, pool combined with SPA and SPA only with the same result, which would tend to indicate no obstruction on the suction side since pool and SPA are separate 2" runs. I also used a drain king from the pool and SPA side and the water comes out at the pool basket with same strenght as the hose input water. I am now wondering if I have a return side problem, although the filter pressure does not show this. Why would the pump experience prime or suction problems only when water is pushing through the solar?

As far as the configuration, the suction and return sides are all 2" pipes and the dedicated vaccum line is 1.5". The runs are approximately 40-50 feet and the solar is on the roof of a two story house. I have 5 returns in the SPA and 4 returns for the pool plus two more holes which I am not sure what they are.

I have two pipes coming from the pool to the pad going into a 3-way diverter valve. One from the dedicated vaccum line (1.5") and one from the single skimmer (2"). After the first diverter valve (pool/vaccum) it goes to a second 3-way diverter valve (feeding from SPA or pool). From there goes directly to the pump. Output of the pump goes to the filter. Output from filter goes to a check valve. From the check valve goes to a three way diverter valve which goes one side to solar input and other side to heater input (the heater input also has a 2" line coming from the solar return side through a check valve. The heater output goes to the SWG and the output of the SWG go to a 3 way valve for pool and/or SPA return (check valve on SPA side).

I really appreciate you looking into this. I am completely at a loss because I can't figure out how the solar affects the prime on the suction side, and the 1.5HP whisperflo did not have this problem. No leaks in the solar panels. What else can I try? Thanks.
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

So to clarify, when you switch over to solar, you start to see air in the pump basket? If so, this would indicate there is an air leak somewhere. However, because of the high suction, this could just be another symptom. Normally, when switching to solar, filter pressure goes up and vacuum goes down. So what is the filter pressure and pump suction with solar off?

Also, how high is the highest point of the solar panels? You mentioned two stories but that could be 25-35 feet or even higher depending on the roof slope.

I still think it is a suction side issue since 18" hg is very high, especially when there is the extra head loss of the panels. Is that measured after the panels are primed or during the priming process?

Also, are you certain the suction gauge is correct? Sometimes they can get water and salt in them which will give rise to erroneous readings although usually on the low side and not the high side.

Also, you might try and disassemble the valve right before the pump. If there is a blockage stuck in the valve, it would be there for all settings.
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

Mark: After priming and stable flow:

WITHOUT SOLAR
2500 RPM/1090Watts
Vaccum=18"Hg
Pressure=8 PSI (at filter)
Flow 75GPM

WITH SOLAR ON
2500 RPM/990Watts
Vaccum=11"Hg
Pressure=14PSI (at filter)
Flow 60GPM

Highest point of solar, approximately 30 feet. I have disassembled all valves on suction side. Also tried suction only from SPA (dedicated 2" line) and only from pool (2" line). Above readings were with dedicated vaccum cleaner line partially open (10"Hg of cleaner vaccum). No matter what combination of suction side pipes I try, results are the same.

I tried turning on the solar AFTER the flow was steady at 65 GPM at 2500 RPM. As soon as the valve turns 180 degrees to solar, you see lots of air and the pump strainer basket starts emptying faster than water coming in. From a neofite standpoint, it almost looks like initial increase pressure from the solar affects the suction side. After a minute or so, everything clears and the flow is normal.

On the other hand, if I start on solar, the pump goes into priming mode (as it should on start-up) and the pump strainer basket slowly empties and no suction water comes in. At that time, if I turn off the solar, the water starts rushing in and primes in a few seconds.

By the way, at 3100 RPM, I can get between 90 and 100 GPM without solar and 60-70 with solar (once stable).

What am I missing? Thanks.
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

I sometimes have a problem with my Intelliflo when the solar comes on. Mine is the VF model which is somewhat similar to the VS-SVRS. My panels are also on a 2 story roof around 25' high.

What I noticed at first with mine is that when the solar valve come on, the pump starts to ramp up to the assigned flow(GPM) and the filter pressure starts to increase from 10psi up to around 30psi, then would instantly spike to around 40psi, then instantly, back down to 10 psi and again slowly ramp up til it spiked again. It was scary watching the pressure spike to 40 for a few times so I turned it off from the inside control panel and let it rest for around 5 minutes, then turned it on again. Then it would work fine for a day or two. It's like the pump is sensing some sort of blockage or pressure change and immediately shuts off, then comes back on and tries again.

It almost always happens if the solar valve comes on at the same time the pump comes on in the morning. But if the pump is already running before the solar valve comes on, it's usually OK. So I programmed the pump to come on a half hour earlier, and that helped a lot, but it would still happen occassionally.

Both the PB and the solar guy had never seen this before, not being too familiar with the VF model. The solar guy tested all the temperature sensors OK and recommends around 3000 rpm for the solar. My pump was running at 56 GPM @ 3450 rpms. It's now down to 36 GPM @ 3050 rpms and hasn't happened much since. The 36 gpm is based on 12 4X12 Ultra Swim panels with a recommended flow of 3 to 3.5 GPM per panel. When the solar is not on, it's set for 30 GPM. Since it still happens occasionally, they recommend I call the Pentair Rep.

You might want to find out what type of panels you have and their recommended flow rates, and see if it helps like mine did.
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

Thank you mark. I have no clue what type of panels I have. They were there when I purchased the house. They look like long horizontal strips with many vessels each. The pipes run along both sides of the roof and the panels attach to the pipes. I have to figure a way to have the solar turn on after the pump. Right now based on the sensors, my solar valve turns on about 8 AM, but my pump does not go on at high speed until 11 AM (I run 8 hours at night at 1500 RPM).

On a separate but related matter, when I open (partially) the diverter valve to allow the vaccum cleaner to clean, I hear air in the suction pipe but no noise when the vaccum pipe is closed. Also, without the cleaner pipe open, I get lower vaccum readings on the gauge than when the suction is from both the cleaner and the skimmer. Is this normal? Thanks.
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

Something is not adding up here. I think the vacuum measurements may not be correct. They are reading much too high for the RPM and Watts readings. Is tha pad level much higher than the pool water level? If so by how much?


WITHOUT SOLAR
2500 RPM/1090Watts
Vaccum=18"Hg
Pressure=8 PSI (at filter)
Flow 75GPM

WITH SOLAR ON
2500 RPM/990Watts
Vaccum=11"Hg
Pressure=14PSI (at filter)
Flow 60GPM
Click to expand...

If I model your plumbing system, I would need to add a lot more head loss to the suction side in order to match the vacuum numbers you are gettings. However, then the watts reading would be much lower so I suspect that the gauge may not be reading the correct values for some reason. BTW, what type of gauge are you using? Can you post a picture of it and the measurement setup?

Ingoring the measurements for now, the problem seems to be with priming the panels and the fact that you are getting air into the pump basket when the panels are being primed which should not occur if the pump is properly primed ahead of time. You need to figure out where the air is coming from and seal the leak. The pump lid is usually the culprit but the drain plugs, where you have been connecting the vacuum gauge is also a likely source of air. Make sure those are all sealed properly. Also, using a hose, pour water over the pump lid and valves while the solar valve is turning on to see if you can spot where the leak is coming from. I think if you can prevent the air from entering the pump basket, the panels should prime ok.
 

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Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

If I turn the diverter valve to skimmer full open and sweeper closed, my vaccum reading goes down 3 or more inches. I have two gauges so I know they are fairly accurate. Also, I installed another pressure gauge on the pump return drain plug and it reads pretty much like the one on the filter. I did notice when I open the solar valve the pressure shoots to 25-28psi and the vaccum drops considerable. Not much different from yours. With solar running at 2350 RPM the vaccum stabilizes at about 11, but closing the sweeper side so all flow comes from the skimmer, drops the vaccum another 3" to about 8.

I think that I need to doublecheck for obstructions again on the suction side. Do you see any danger with hooking up my high flow pool draining pump with 2" adaptrer to the skimmer and flow high pressure water backwards to check for obstructions? I am worried if this could damage something.

Is it normal for the system vaccum to increase when you slightly turn the diverter valve to allow more flow from the sweeper 1.5" line and less from the skimmer 2" line? Thanks.
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

Ok, I think I might understand what is going on. When I had asked for suction and pressure mesurements, I had assumed that they were with the skimmers and main drain fully on. When you close down the skimmer for the cleaner, this will increase the cleaner suction but the negative effect is that it will increase the pump suction considerably and will make it more difficult to prime the panels. Using the cleaner increases total head loss and reduces flow rates. It will be much easier to prime the panels with the skimmers and main drain fully open. Try this and see if your problem doesn't go away.

Most controllers allow you to set the cleaner valve interlocked with the pump so when the pump turns on, this valve will not engage for a few minutes. This allows any priming of the pump or panels to occur before engaging the cleaner valve. Not sure if you have one or not but something to look into.

Just as confirmation, can you measure suction and pressure again but this time with the skimmer and main drain fully open (with and without solar). Thanks.
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

Thanks again Mark. You are very helpfull. As far as the skimmer, it was not fully off. Just partially to allow suction through the cleaner line. I am traveling now but will measure again. When I checked, shutting the cleaner line and full open to skimmer, reduced the vaccum by about 3-4" hg. I will also try with the Jandy valve fully turned the other way to allow full flow from the skimmer and the cleaner line. That would further reduce the head since I would effectively draw water from the 1.5 and 2" pipes in parallel.

As far as main drain, I have no control over it. Frankly, I don't know how it is plumbed in. By the way, I spoke with Pentair technician, and he could not figure it out. He said that if it runs OK when I turn solar after pump is running stable, it should also prime with solar on OK. I dont know if that is correct, since priming with solar on is from scratch having to overcome the high pressure. Do you agree?

If the priming is resolved by not using the vaccum, I will need to figure out if I am better of with a controler or instead, just use a robotic cleaner that does not connect to the cleaner pipe. Your thoughts? Thanks.
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

Mark: pentair Water engineers are looking into my problem. So far, the consensus is that there are no suction side issues, but there is a pressure build-up issue with solar on prior to priming that it is causing cavitation in the pump.

They are trying a number of things. They are testing to see if the EasyTouch has a delay for priming before starting the solar. It looks like with VS+SVRS only, solar mode does not turn on valve until the priming ends and normal speed resumes. Waiting for the test results befor plunging into the expense of EasyTouch.

They thought that the vaccum and pressure readings as well as the GPM both with and without solar looked fairly normal.
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

The pressure rise is a bit high for solar. Mine is around 40% increase and yours is closer to 75%. Did they plumb the panels in series instead of parallel? How many panels do you have and what size are they?

Still, the absolute pressure is pretty low. 14 PSI is very low pressure and should not cause a problem with the Intelliflo. As to the pressure spike at 28 PSI, that is a bit unusual if your roof is only 30' high. However, 14 PSI is boarderline for priming. You really want to see a few PSI above that but the pump maynot be able to produce that at 2500 RPM.

However, what is more unusual to me is the ratio of head loss in the suction and return sides. Without solar, the suction head loss is 20' of head while the return is only 21.5' of head. That is nearly 1:1 and I am sure that it is caused by the cleaner valve setting. This will also retard the priming of the panels.

Do me a favor, set the valves such that the skimmer is 100% open and set the pump to 3000 RPM. See if the pump will prime the panels.
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

Thanks mark. I will do that when I get back in town in about a week. Also, I am thinking that my filter may be part of the pressure issue. My landscape is no grass and all southwestern decomposed granite (DG). This causes dust year around. If the Pool Cleaner is constantly picking up the dust, it may quickly load up the DE filter.

The next troubleshooting steps are:
(1) As you suggested, disconnect the cleaner and turn the Jandy valve so both suction lines are pulling unrestricted, and try the prime with solar on;
(2) If still problem, backflush the filter again and try with (1) above;
(3) If still fails, put Compool in a timer so the solar valve does not turn on until after priming completed.

If it works with (1) or (2), I will likely eliminate the suction side cleaner and use an Aquabot with its own fine mesh bag to catch the fine dust now going to the filter.

How does it sound?
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

Don't forget to try and increase the pump speed to 3000 RPM. 2500 RPM and 14 PSI is really not enough pressure to fully prime the panels. When the solar valve turns on, you would like to see at least 16 PSI after the panels are fully primed. You might get higher pressure when the cleaner valve is off so you may not need 3000 RPM but if it still doesn't prime with the cleaner valve off, then I would try 3000 RPM.
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

Mark: merry Christmas. Please see my posting in "I just Installed Solar......." Looks like that Total Control sampling line is the issue. I closed both sampling linse (to/from) TC and the pump now primes with solar on without any problems.

I now need to figure out if I can relocate the sampling line from he TC manifold to somewhere ele. What do you think?
 
Re: HELP PLEASE - INTELLIFLO AND SOLAR ISSUES

What Jason suggested in the other post should work fine. Just connect the sampling line somewhere before the solar valve and after the filter.
 

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