Whats a good pump run time for a 12,000 gal pool?

[IslandPool]

I have an Hayward EC65 filter.

I was running the pump for 12 hrs while I was balancing the pool but now that it is sparkling blue I reduced it to 6 hrs which is what the owners wanted. will 6 hrs be enough?

Thanks.

 

[New2Me]

The filter design flow rate is 67 gpm, 4020 gallons/hour. If the pump is the proper size then six hours would be two complete turn-overs, which is twice what most pools get.

 

[IslandPool]

The filter design flow rate is 67 gpm, 4020 gallons/hour. If the pump is the proper size then six hours would be two complete turn-overs, which is twice what most pools get.

Thanks. That's really good news then.

I could probably have it come on for 3 hrs and then later in the day another 3 hrs. instead of one complete 6hr run. might be better.

 

[Guest]

Sometimes electric rates go down in the evening (not sure about all areas of the country on that though), so splitting run times (and having half of it at night) may save you some $$$ as well! Just remember that evening temps are lower than daytime temps and it has a tendency to cool the water at night (not sure how critical that is in your part of the world!).

Bruce

 

[IslandPool]

Sometimes electric rates go down in the evening (not sure about all areas of the country on that though), so splitting run times (and having half of it at night) may save you some $$$ as well! Just remember that evening temps are lower than daytime temps and it has a tendency to cool the water at night (not sure how critical that is in your part of the world!).

Bruce

Thanks Bruce.

yeah coming up to winter now. water will be cooling down but not too cool. some northerners swim all year round here. not locals though.

 

[Davegvg]

I really think the only way to tell is to put a flowmeter inline and base your run time on the actual measured flow.

Saying your filter is designed for X flow has nothing to do with what your actual flow is.

Example I have a Pentair Quad DE 60 that can flow soemthing crazy like 120 GPM, but my actual system doesnt reach anywhere near that flow with my pump. (I have a brand new "super killer" 2 HP Jandy EPUMP with a 1.35 service factor on full output. ) As a matter of fact I need to run the system at nearly 950 watts of power to get 48GPM out of it with the solar tap open = 1.27 Horsepower.

Solar open, freshly cleaned filter@ 48 GPM is about 18lb of pressure on that filter (just remeasured everything 10 minutes ago)

Filter backpressure, length of piping, u turns and bend in the pipes - all effect the systems total GPM

You may only be getting 20 GPM or 1200 gallons an hour- in which case your optimum pump run time for one full cycle is 10 hours.

6 hours may be fine or you may begin a slow descent into a muck pond.

Until you put in an inexpensive flow meter - you are just guessing. And my advice would be to get one scaled to start at 20 GPM not 40.
Spend the few bucks to really know whats going on then you can really figure out when and how long to run the pump.

What pump is it BTW?


Davegvg

 

[IslandPool]

I really think the only way to tell is to put a flowmeter inline and base your run time on the actual measured flow.

Saying your filter is designed for X flow has nothing to do with what your actual flow is.

Example I have a Pentair Quad DE 60 that can flow soemthing crazy like 120 GPM, but my actual system doesnt reach anywhere near that flow with my pump. (I have a brand new "super killer" 2 HP Jandy EPUMP with a 1.35 service factor on full output. ) As a matter of fact I need to run the system at nearly 1100 watts of power to get 40GPM out of it with the solar tap open = 1.47 Horsepower.

Filter backpressure, length of piping, u turns and bend in the pipes - all effect the systems total GPM

You may only be getting 20 GPM or 120 gallons an hour- in which case your optimum pump run time for one full cycle is 10 hours.

6 hours may be fine or you may begin a slow descent into a muck pond.

Until you put in an inexpensive flow meter - you are just guessing. And my advice would be to get one scaled to start at 20 GPM not 40.
Spend the few bucks to really know whats going on then you can really figure out when and how long to run the pump.

What pump is it BTW?


Davegvg

Thanks Dave that's some food for thought. you are right. that filter flow rate is only the max flow rate possible with the filter. it depends like you say on the pump (don't know what type...will check) and the plumbing as well.

are these flow meters unreliable as pressure gauges? but I guess when they are new they are accurate. so we need to just double the run time to be sure? or maybe triple? I don't think my clients will install a flow meter. they told me to have it come on 10am and go off at 4pm. of course if the run time was too low I would inform them of this. so I can't install meters on all my pools I clean. can I? how hard is it?

 

[Davegvg]

Its pretty easy. Ive used these before the 300 series not the digital ones and have one now.

http://www.bluwhite.com/poolpage.htm

They are pretty accurate as well I think I got mine for 69 dollars, and it took all of about 10 minutes to install. (get the one that starts at 20GPM not 40)

IF the client wont pay for it whose fault is it if the pool turns green or slowly algaes up?

This combo usually starts with low filter run time, lax cleaning, and just a day or so of hot weather with a decent bather load using up all the free chlorine (I take it you manually add chlorine) them bam- you start a slow slide to green that takes chemicals, time and effort to fix.

Is it their fault? They said how long to run the pump......- or are you the "trusted advisor" being paid to know better?

Who then pays for shock and time to brush the whole thing down and start over?

Ask them whose responsibility it is and you'll have your answer as to what to do next.

Davegvg

 

[Guest]

The BlueWhite 300 flow meter is a commercial approved gauge, and is indeed accurate. There should be no reason to get the digital ones (they look cool, though!) unless the customer prefers it.

Check your pipe sizes as well. Little pipes are bad juju! The pump and filter flow rates mean nothing if the water can't move! Little pipes and lots of 90's, ups and downs and other restrictions do not make for easily flowing water!

Bruce

 

[IslandPool]

Thanks. so I have to run the pump longer than it is needed. I can't install a flow meter on all my clients systems. got to estimate flow rate some how. its a business so got to figure maybe more than the flow rate to be sure.

 

[Davegvg]

Thanks. so I have to run the pump longer than it is needed. I can't install a flow meter on all my clients systems. got to estimate flow rate some how. its a business so got to figure maybe more than the flow rate to be sure.

next best way ----Look at the head curve on the pump they are running and estimate from that.

Or simply put he flow meter in measure and take it out and plug the hole.

Ive never had a pool guy (from back when I had pool guys) that would let me time a pump shorter than 10 hours.


Davegvg

 

[PoolGuyNJ]

Calculating Head Loss:

Most pumps have 2 drain plugs, on one the suction side and one one the return side.

There are available gauges that, when screwed in the suction side of a pump, will tell you in inches of mercury, how much suction there is. Thread size is usually 1/4" MIP, just like a filter's pressure gauge. A decent plumbing supply will have them and they are not expensive.

Filters usually have pressure gauges.

Inches of Hg(mercury's periodic symbol) X 1.13 = Ft of head on the suction side.
PSI x 2.31 = feet of head on the return side

Add them up for total head loss. Compare to the pump curve for you pump and you will have a reasonable number to work with.


Scott
PoolGuyNJ

 

[IslandPool]

Thanks guys.

I got the pump running for 12 hrs right now until I get rid of the black "stains". I also shocked the pool again.

I will check into a flow meter. best to get one and figure the flow rate out properly. I could install temp one and then remove it for use on another system. that way the client doesn't have to buy a meter.

 

[Davegvg]

whoa... you never said anything about black stains till now (at least in this thread) whats happening?

There is an art to the upsell here.

The client should be Sold the meter and 1/4 - 1/2 hour install time - FOR their own benefit.

This way they can potentially SAVE WAAAAY more than the paltry cost of the meter and install should they be able to cut the pump rum time down if the pool flows better than expected and if not - now they have true baseline to compute from.

If the pool flows well, the ROI on cutting the run time to 6-8 hours from 10-12 can pay for itself quite quickly.

you should have one standing by for your more sophisticated clients anyway- you cant do anything on a commercial system without one.

Davegvg

 

[joshreis]

Installing a flowmeter in a residential pool is a little unrealistic because of space limitations. And you cant really just 'take one out to use on the next house' because they are calibrated for a certain pipe size diameter, and on top of that, you need to drill a hole in the pipe and secure it with hose clamps, meaning you would have to plug the hole every time.

Per the 2009 Pool and Spa Operator Handbook (CPO book): "When water changes flow direction, a certain amount of turbulence is created. Because of this, there is a requirement of ten times the pipe diameter of equivalent straight pipe before the flow meter and four or five times the pipe diameter of equivalent straight pipe after the flow meter."

Most residential pipe is 2 iinch, so that means you would need 20 inches before the meter and 10 inches after it. Not many people have 30 inches of straight pipe on their equipment pad...unless you feel like doing some digging to the underground piping.

The next best thing you can do is to see what pump it is and look at the manufactures web site and find the pump head graphs and match it up to your current TDH, which will give you a fairly accurate reading on what your flow is.

 

[IslandPool]

whoa... you never said anything about black stains till now (at least in this thread) whats happening?

There is an art to the upsell here.

The client should be Sold the meter and 1/4 - 1/2 hour install time - FOR their own benefit.

This way they can potentially SAVE WAAAAY more than the paltry cost of the meter and install should they be able to cut the pump rum time down if the pool flows better than expected and if not - now they have true baseline to compute from.

If the pool flows well, the ROI on cutting the run time to 6-8 hours from 10-12 can pay for itself quite quickly.

you should have one standing by for your more sophisticated clients anyway- you cant do anything on a commercial system without one.

Davegvg

just some left over from shocking. had to shock once more today. hopefully gets rid of the last bit.

its a hard sell to residential pool owners. the flow meter that is.

I plan on servicing lots of pools. not sure most will pay for a flow meter. I used to work for a large pool company and serviced over 100 pools a week and never saw a flow meter. I've seen them on commercial water systems but not on pool systems. btw I was in charge of keeping the pools balanced. but that was 20 yrs ago. my memory is not that good. some stuff coming back to me. I'm learning tons just hanging out with you guys. Thanks!

 

[IslandPool]

Installing a flowmeter in a residential pool is a little unrealistic because of space limitations. And you cant really just 'take one out to use on the next house' because they are calibrated for a certain pipe size diameter, and on top of that, you need to drill a hole in the pipe and secure it with hose clamps, meaning you would have to plug the hole every time.

Per the 2009 Pool and Spa Operator Handbook (CPO book): "When water changes flow direction, a certain amount of turbulence is created. Because of this, there is a requirement of ten times the pipe diameter of equivalent straight pipe before the flow meter and four or five times the pipe diameter of equivalent straight pipe after the flow meter."

Most residential pipe is 2 iinch, so that means you would need 20 inches before the meter and 10 inches after it. Not many people have 30 inches of straight pipe on their equipment pad...unless you feel like doing some digging to the underground piping.

The next best thing you can do is to see what pump it is and look at the manufactures web site and find the pump head graphs and match it up to your current TDH, which will give you a fairly accurate reading on what your flow is.

Thanks.

So if the flow meter is not installed right then there will not be accurate reading so we are back to guessing again. I will check to see what type pump.

It's hard enough just reading the pressure gauge in some of these pump rooms.

is that the book to get? 2009 Pool and Spa Operator Handbook?

 

[joshreis]

Thanks.

So if the flow meter is not installed right then there will not be accurate reading so we are back to guessing again. I will check to see what type pump.

It's hard enough just reading the pressure gauge in some of these pump rooms.

is that the book to get? 2009 Pool and Spa Operator Handbook?

Yeah, its what book you use when you take the CPO (Certified Pool and Spa Operator) course. Its made by the National Swimming Pool Foundation.

Are the pressure gauges hard to read because they move around a lot or because they are just old and corroded? If its because they move so much that you cant read it accurately, then you need to get a liquid filled pressure gauge. The liquid in it keeps the needle from moving like crazy and lets you get a more accurate reading. They are a bit more expensive but its worth it if you need to take the readings on a regular basis.

 

[Davegvg]

A lot of things arent the way they used to be.

5-10 years ago not may people cared about cutting the pump run time by a few hours or even half, because we didnt have sky high electricity rates and tiered electric bills with smart meters. Global warming enviro nonsense has driven everyone to find more cost effective methods of living with their pools.

Now we have 2 speed pumps, multispeed pumps, variable speed pumps,variable flow pumps and laws in Kalifornia that tell us what we can and cant build a new pool with.

We have salt chlorinators everywhere, better heat pumps and much more solar. all of these things require a certain flow, and the old standby of one full water change per pump run still works today.

with a modern pool today A flow meter isnt a luxury- its a necessity. If you have a 12 inch run of pipe you can put it in. Will it be 100% accurate? they never are anyway, but will you get a readable rounded off number that reflects a reality you can plan pump timing around around? absolutely.

I dont know of a cheaper way to set my own pump speed and base my timing and even a flowmeter that's not 100% accurate is waaay better than a guess.

for under 100 bones- its a no brainer.

The bluewhites are liquid filled and very easy to read at least on my set up and the ones Ive had before.
Ive posted two videos already and will post a third showing the flowmeter and its stability.

Here's a vid of my setup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYN92oAcPgc

You can guess, or you can know.

Davegvg

 

[IslandPool]

Thanks.

So if the flow meter is not installed right then there will not be accurate reading so we are back to guessing again. I will check to see what type pump.

It's hard enough just reading the pressure gauge in some of these pump rooms.

is that the book to get? 2009 Pool and Spa Operator Handbook?

Yeah, its what book you use when you take the CPO (Certified Pool and Spa Operator) course. Its made by the National Swimming Pool Foundation.

Are the pressure gauges hard to read because they move around a lot or because they are just old and corroded? If its because they move so much that you cant read it accurately, then you need to get a liquid filled pressure gauge. The liquid in it keeps the needle from moving like crazy and lets you get a more accurate reading. They are a bit more expensive but its worth it if you need to take the readings on a regular basis.

Thanks. I need that book then.

no just pressure gauge might be slightly corroded from inside I guess. sometimes tapping on a gauge before reading it is a good idea. no gauge looks fine. I'm reading 15-18psi on the Hayward EC65 DE filter of the 12,000 gal pool. filter has been cleaned and I backwash regularly.