So how do you justify the details of your document please?
Chlorine resistant algae?
So how do you justify the details of your document please?
Chlorine resistant algae?
I starting using borates this year. Chlorine consumption has been about the same, while water clarity, "feel", and "sparkle" have improved. Never had algae since I started following the Chlorine/CYA chart, with or without borates, except for once when the power failed while I was out of town.Originally Posted by teapot
any more information on what your chlorine consumption is?
I do too - I use it to provide additional buffer against pH rise due to my SWG. Can't give you much info regarding chlorine usage, but after I increased borates to ~50ppm, and dropped my TA to 70, acid demand is down substantially. Water is consistently sparkly clear and beautiful.Originally Posted by teapot
18k gal inground, everbrite finish, 505 sq ft; 1.5 hp two speed whisperflow; rheem 5100ti 100k btu heat pump; 3 sheer descent falls; DE filter; swg (cell out and using trichlor for now)
LOL, guess he dosn't want me to play anymore!Originally Posted by teapot
teapot,Originally Posted by no-mas
I think you are going to find that the vase majority of people who are adding borates are doing it for pH control and not algae control.
The vast majority of people who follow our guidelines (testing the water properly to know what you need, how much you need, and when to add it) do not have algae. Algaecides, phosphate removers, and clarifiers are 'crutches' for people who do not practice proper pool care.
As an analogy, if you have a dog that makes a mess on the rug you have two option. You can spray it with deodorizer so it does not smell or you can clean up the poop and solve the problem.
Using algaecides and phosphate removers and clariifers is akin to spaying the mess with deoderizer. It temporarily masks the problem but does not get to the root of the issue (usually not enough chlorine for the CYA level in the water) or you can solve the problem by properly adjusting and maintaining the water, which in the long run is going to be much less work and expense.
No problem with your imput Waterbear, It's just we know you are using borates.
Your **** analogy is exactly that! got you there
Your comments on algae harvesting are quite interesting but thats for another day.
Hopefully some more posters will pop buy and identify if they are using borax and what sort of chlorine consumption they have.
"Algaecides, phosphate removers, and clarifiers are 'crutches' for people who do not practice proper pool care".
Can't agree there Waterbear, the fact that borax has been found to stabilise PH and an algaecide is a gift at the price of the box of mule team borax.
To use your analogy, I feel that algaecides and phosphate removers are more like the scotchguard on the rug and chlorine just help killing any potential bacteria and oxidising away the solids.
If you are referring to either lanthanum chlorine or lanthanum sulfate, one of the first reactions that occurs is the formation of lanthanum carbonate, which is what actually scavenges the phosphates from the water. Lanthanum carbonate clouds the water in much the same way that calcium carbonate does when you have it precipitate out. The lanthanum carbonate does precipitate out of the water where it gets caught in the filter and scavenges phosphates and becomes lanthanum phosphate. If it did not then phosphates would not be scavanged. The lanthanum phosphate is removed from the pool during normal filter cleaning. It is impossible to add a lanthanum based phosphate remover to a pool that will not cloud the water. Some phosphate removers say to pour them slowly into the skimmer so the lanthanum is caught in the filter but this only really works when the phosphate levels are low to start out with and the 'need' for a phosphate remover is dubious at best. Under normal conditions there will be some formation of lanthanum carbonate in the body of the pool and the water will cloud.Originally Posted by Aquaclear-NZ
There are products that are alum, actually aluminum sulfate (for example, Natural Chemitry's PhosFloc
http://naturalchemistry.com/admin/media ... object/778
http://naturalchemistry.com/pool-and-sp ... ription/11)
designed as floc to quickly remove high levels of phosphates but the ability to vacuum to waste is requred. Funny thing is, plain old ordinary floc is also aluminum sulfate and often MUCH less expensive!
http://secure.poolcenter.com/prodinfo.a ... =152897713
http://secure.poolcenter.com/prodinfo.a ... =143560138
IF you read the MSDS for PhosFloc and the description for the Nu-clo Flock aluminum sulfate and then look at the prices you get my point.
Both of these products are coming from the same online retailer so it is the manufacturers that are setting the price on what is a a very inexpensive chemical!
http://www.chemistrystore.com/cart.cgi? ... hild=49900
Is there a profit motive here? You tell me.
I think a more valid question for you to ask is not about borates but about how many are using clarifers, algaecides, and phosphate removers on a regular basis. I think you will find the answer enlightening.Originally Posted by teapot
Originally Posted by teapotA better solution would be to clean the rug (get the water balance and chlorine levels where they are supposed to be) and train the dog not to poop on the rug to prevent further problems (maintain the pool properly). Don't you agree?Originally Posted by teapot
No you get me wrong, we approach the problems in different ways. I have no interest in those, far more interest in borax as we dicussed via pm all the plus points without the potential problems of copper based when used with chlorine.
Your **** analogy is exactly that! got you there
Explain how please. If you make such a statement please back it up.
That was a joke! you made an analogy about dog poo?
"A better solution would be to clean the rug (get the water balance and chlorine levels where they are supposed to be) and train the dog not to poop on the rug to prevent further problems (maintain the pool properly). Don't you agree?"
Sure but we balance our water differently thats what started this dicussion off and don't blame it was your dog! (that is another joke)
Yes, and you said my analogy was poo. My analogy hold. I guess you used an attempt at humor because you didn't have a better answer.Originally Posted by teapot
I use about 0.75 ppm of chlorine a day in mid-summer to maintain FC between 4 and 5. I have a SWG and the math is a bit complex to figure out ppm/day, so I could be off a little. I have not used algaecide, phosphate remover, or clarifier in years (since I first learned about BBB).
Thanks JasonLion, very informative and good figures.
Just to clarify for others that were not privy to our PMs I am posting them here to aid in the discussion.
there are three of them and I am posting them in order recieved and answered:
The second:Originally Posted by waterbear
The third:Originally Posted by waterbear
Like I said in the last post:Originally Posted by waterbear
However, this thread has just become a continuation of the PMs, IMHO.Originally Posted by waterbear
Marketing literature from Lo-chlor. The line is also here in the U.S. from Team Horner (AutoPilot SWGs and Aauacal heaters are also part of Team Horner). Pretty much the same B S you get from every manufacturer's marketing literature.Originally Posted by teapot
(from the US Lo-Chlor site): http://www.lo-chlor.com/faq.php
http://www.halosource.com/userfiles/Pho ... 062209.pdf
http://naturalchemistry.com/pool-and-sp ... cts/show/8
and finally, gotta love this video from Orenda Tech. (I have conversed with Richard Kersey, president of the company, on several occasions by email and he used to be a moderator on the Poolcenter forum. He used to make statements in the forum repeated that phosphates destroy chlorine and that it was not just chlorine being consumed by nascent algae. Both chemgeek and myself asked him repeatedly to please explain the chmical pathway by which this happened. He never did.)
There is so much chemistry misinformation in this video that I don't know where to start!
I will say that Richard Kersey does have an excellent knowledge of pool chemistry. A very knowable man indeed and I have enjoyed the email discussion I had with him. I also have had the pleasure of meeting his ex associate who now runs Water Technologies.
They developed the CYA reducer that was on the market for a while but seems to have disappeared pretty much. Right from the horses mouth at a Water Technologies seminar I was told that it was not effective if you needed to lower the CYA by more than about 20 ppm and if you did to drain andn refill but the marketing literature for that product says nothing about that! Go figure!
I added borates to my pool this year. My daily chlorine demand is approximately 1ppm/day, however, I base that on the FC/CYA chart so I'm not sure this info will satisfy your curiosity about borates and chlorine consumption.Originally Posted by teapot
In other words, I've never let my FC dip below the min so I can't speak for the algaestatic properties of the borates.
20K gal IG plaster pool, Manually chlorinated with 6% bleach, 1.5 HP Sta-Rite Dura-Glas II pump, Pentair FNS Plus 48 DE filter, Polaris 280
judging from subsequent posts, I assume you are talking about adding 50ppm borates, not borax for raising ph. if that's the case, I have my numbers listed below. unfortunately I don't have many numbers pre-borates.Originally Posted by teapot
before borates, from 5-8-09 to 5-23-09, I used 800oz of 10.5% chlorine. I added borates on 5-24-09 using 20 mule team borax and waterbear's instructions. from 5-25-09 to 7-28-09 I used 1472oz.
I keep my FC at 8ppm with a cya of 70.
16x32 21,000 gallon in-ground exposed aggregate, 1.5hp pump, 120 sqft catridge filter, birdcage, solar panels, aquavac tigershark qc robot.
It is marketing material from lo-chlor, has been on our website for around 5 yearsOriginally Posted by waterbear
Lo-chlor source the lanthanum from the usual supplier, however they have added secret herbs and spices and patented this in australia, it does not cause cloudy water when added, why i dont know, i am certainly nowhere near the chemical expert you 2 are. i have seen it used first hand personally and is one of our biggest selling products. The market is now flooded with similar products from the same raw source, and a comment i often get is that while they are usually cheaper, the water does require a clarifier. So im quite happy selling one product to do the job, not adding a second product to fix the mess from the first one.
again its a great algae insurance, as the percentage of people who actually do know, or for that matter want to know, how to keep their pool pristene through use of regular (at least daily) testing and maintenance is very low
Personally, I think that phosphate removers need to be looked at in the same vein as other algae prevention alternatives such as weekly PolyQuat 60 usage or even copper-based algaecides or ionization systems. They will all prevent algae growth but all have some sort of side effect or extra cost associated with them. At least with the phosphate remover, it tends to be a larger initial dose and relatively small maintenance doses depending on how much phosphate there is in the water or in blown-in fertilized soil.
Maintaining the appropriate FC relative to CYA will prevent algae growth. So the comment about phosphate removers or other algae prevention systems being "insurance" is appropriate. That's really what it is. IF the chlorine level gets to low or to zero, then having such systems in place will (probably) prevent runaway algae growth. My own pool with 2000-3000 ppb phosphates is quite reactive -- if the chlorine gets too low for even a couple of days, the pool will cloud up with algae (or the bacteria will eat CYA as happened once). I have since (this year) added 50 ppm Borates to the pool so I will later in the year do an experiment to see if the pool is as "reactive" as it used to be. If it isn't, then I would say that 50 ppm Borates is probably the best "insurance" of all because there are virtually no side effects (except the "edge" of toxicity to dogs if they drink cups of pool water every day) and it's pretty much a one-time dose except for water dilution (i.e. splash-out, backwashing).
The key on this forum is knowledge, not so much a specific technique to follow. If one wants to use copper in their pool and has an appropriate test kit for copper and carefully manages their pH levels, then so be it. It's their pool and they can obviously manage it any way they want. As long as they understand the consequences, then that's fine. Same with phosphate removers and their cost and cloudiness when applied. There is nothing wrong with people using whatever product that they want to so long as they understand the pros/cons and are making conscience decisions. Ben (followed by others) at The PoolForum and subsequently people here promote a simpler chlorine-only approach, but it really is up to people to choose what they want to do given appropriate knowledge.
For pool services or other situations where they may not be able to add chlorine regularly and the risk of low or no chlorine is high, then phopshate removers might be a very reasonable approach. With cloudiness and cost as the only real significant side effects, it might be worth it to them. For me, I don't mind adding chlorine twice a week to my covered pool and if it turns out that the 50 ppm Borates take the "edge" off of rapid algae growth if/when I screw up, then so much the better, but I don't plan to use phosphate removers or copper and that's a personal choice.
16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"
The problem is when these forms of 'insurance' are applied to pools that are not properly balanced and overstabilized, which is often the case. They then become a temporary 'fix' that does not deal with the underlying problem of why the pool is getting algae in the first place.
Unfortunately, this the the rule rather than the exception.