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Thread: Proposed Experiment - Need Vinyl Liner Samples

  1. #1
    Senior Member KurtV's Avatar
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    Proposed Experiment - Need Vinyl Liner Samples

    I keep hearing that this level or that of free chlorine will fade vinyl liners. Similarly, that pH below X will cause liners to become brittle. Unfortunately, these statements are always rather imprecise and based on anecdotes or what someone told someon else . My guess is that with CYA in the water, liner fading from chlorine is probably much less of a problem than many make it out to be. I don't know about pH.

    It think with some fairly simple experimentation it would be easy enough to come up with some rough guidelines, at least for chlorine. To do that though, I'd need some small pieces of liner or a good proxy. The internet hasn't turned up any sources for the vinyl. I haven't checked the local pool stores yet. Any other ideas on where to get some liner samples? Any suggestions on experiment design would also be welcome.

  2. #2
    Mod Squad JohnT's Avatar
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    Most people who have vinyl lined pools should have pieces that were cut out from skimmers, stairs, lights etc., that were saved for use as patching material.
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    Kurt, I think I have some left from my last liner install two years ago.

    You shouldn't need very big samples, right?

    I could mail you some, and possibly others could as well?

    Let me know if you decide to proceed with this, and I'll check to make sure it's where I think I put it

  4. #4
    Senior Member KurtV's Avatar
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    Rangeball, That would be perfect. I think very small samples would work. I'll PM you the address.

  5. #5
    chlorine doesn't fade liners, low ph does

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    poolio, hopefully Kurt will be able to tell us with certainty when he get's the sample I sent him and starts his experiments

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    KurtV:

    I have alot here, not a problem cutting some up and sending it off to you. Let me know where to ship it.

    Rik
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    Kurt,

    If you are going to experiment, one of the claims is that dumping chlorine in one spot quickly can have it settle to the bottom of an above-ground pool with poor circulation (i.e. no floor drain). We know that concentrated chlorine is denser than water and The Liquidator (see here) even depends on that principle of the two not mixing readily. So testing higher chlorine levels beyond what one would expect in the bulk water would still be useful. If dumping 6% (62,000 ppm ) bleach expanded to 100 times it's size so that 2 cups settled into 12.5 gallons of water at the bottom, then that's 620 ppm FC which would overwhelm the CYA. Of course, this water would also be very basic/alkaine so the disinfecting chlorine concentration wouldn't be nearly that high, but your tests should show the result. So adding a fluid ounce of 6% bleach to a gallon bucket of pool water may seem like too much to test, but would still be useful.

    Of course, even if this high concentration of chlorine causes a problem, so long as lower concentrations don't then pouring slowly into the skimmer or over a return that isn't close to the skimmer should be fine.

    Richard
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    Kurt,

    How much do you want? For some reason I have access to lots of vinyl scraps and pieces If you'd let me know a prefered size, I'll do my best to get it to you in a timely manner. (Most of what I can readily get is 1' X 3' pattern samples)
    Whatever you need, I'll tell the construction crew to save me all the cut-outs they do (tomorrow they should be cutting out an 'in-wall' ladder, which should yield a couple of square feet of virgin material).

    Good luck with the experiment! - I'll help all I can to help advance the knowledge base here!! - Ted
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

  10. #10
    Senior Member KurtV's Avatar
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    Waste, Pooladddict, et al,
    Thanks for the offers. Rangeball sent me some (which I received Saturday, thanks RB) so I'm set for now. In the not unlikely event I screw up the first round of experiments, I may need more. I'll let you know.

    Thanks again.

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    No problem, glad it got there safe and sound

  12. #12
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    KurtV,
    First of all, I want to say thanks for undertaking this experiment. As a vinyl pool owner, I will be following this closely. Unfortunately I have no vinyl to donate.

    I don't know what I could do to help, but if you think of something, don't hesitate to ask.

    Thanks again
    Poor Man's Pool
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  13. #13
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    I ain't so sure about bleach not fading liners...When we first started having algae problems & were shocking alot with bleach, we were slowly pouring it into the skimmer. A year later of doing this, the skimmer side of the pool was definately faded. Now two years later of keeping high chlorine levels trying to counteract high phosphates & frequeent algae blooms, the entire liner is faded. When my water gets low, you can see a definate line where the liner is faded below the water line & still blue above it. pH has always ran on the higher side of the limits. I can't ever remember it getting low.

    Next year, we are investing in a new liner & I have already been told by my wife that she will NOT be allowing bleach. I just can't get her to understand it is simply chlorine just like the other stuff available.

    I am interested in this test...Please keep us informed on the progress.
    27ft Above Ground Pool
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  14. #14
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    Bassadict, have you ever put trichlor pucks in the skimmer? (before finding 'the bbbeter way?) Acid seems to do more damage to the liner than a direct hit of chlorine. (saw one today that the water level was readily identified by the liner fading - we were out there to bypass the heater because acidic water had eaten the heat exchanger (pH < 6.8!!! ) - the tile pattern is supposed to be the same colors throughout, but you can see where the water has been maintained for the past 3 yrs. (we built this pool ~ 7 yrs ago and have opened and closed it since - we add 2 gal 12.5% in the spring and fall, pouring it around the perimeter with the filter running - I can't see the cl concentration being enough to do the damage)


    Kurt, I assume that you'll be keeping track of the pH for each test.
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

  15. #15
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    We have the last couple of years since we started having trouble find cal-hypo tablets. I don't think we were using tri-chlor before the fading started.
    27ft Above Ground Pool
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  16. #16
    it was probably the bleach bass, sometimes they put additives in there that actually help it bleach out stuff more so.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bassadict69
    I ain't so sure about bleach not fading liners...When we first started having algae problems & were shocking alot with bleach, we were slowly pouring it into the skimmer. A year later of doing this, the skimmer side of the pool was definately faded. Now two years later of keeping high chlorine levels trying to counteract high phosphates & frequeent algae blooms, the entire liner is faded. When my water gets low, you can see a definate line where the liner is faded below the water line & still blue above it. pH has always ran on the higher side of the limits. I can't ever remember it getting low.

    Next year, we are investing in a new liner & I have already been told by my wife that she will NOT be allowing bleach. I just can't get her to understand it is simply chlorine just like the other stuff available.

    I am interested in this test...Please keep us informed on the progress.
    Bass-

    What was your CYA during this?

    How high were you holding FC ppm?

    How strong a bleach source were you using?

    Were you actually pouring it IN the skimmer, or with an AG pool were you pouring it IN FRONT of the skimmer and letting it get sucked in?

    I posted this way back when on pool forum when my wife was "skeptical" of BBB, perhaps it will help you help her understand chlorine is chlorine is chlorine...

    http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread ... =rangeball

  18. #18
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    CYA was REAL high from using Wal-Mart shock before we knew better...It was somewhere between 100 & 150

    We were keeping the FC levels up around 15 & raising to somewhere between 22-25 for a shock level (if I remember right)

    We were pouring it into the skimmer, as slowly as possible. I remember it would take several minuttes to empty a bottle.

    The bleach we were using was either Fred's brand or the stuff from the dollar store, whatever was cheapest that week.
    27ft Above Ground Pool
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  19. #19
    Senior Member KurtV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poolio
    it was probably the bleach bass, sometimes they put additives in there that actually help it bleach out stuff more so.
    Well, the only bleach you're likely to see advocated here on this forum or on poolforum is plain, unscented bleach. I don't know of any additives in that that increase its bleaching capability. The only significant ingredients in plain household bleach are sodium hypochlorite, water, salt, and a little lye.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bassadict69
    CYA was REAL high from using Wal-Mart shock before we knew better...It was somewhere between 100 & 150

    We were keeping the FC levels up around 15 & raising to somewhere between 22-25 for a shock level (if I remember right)

    We were pouring it into the skimmer, as slowly as possible. I remember it would take several minuttes to empty a bottle.

    The bleach we were using was either Fred's brand or the stuff from the dollar store, whatever was cheapest that week.
    How about your PH during this time?

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