Bonding 12x24 Intex Ultra Frame

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Schnozz

Schnozz

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Jul 6, 2015
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Charter Oak, California
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Just poured the concrete pad for our pool and a separate concrete equipment pad, about 30 feet away from the pool. I'll be swapping the Intex 1/2 HP Pump & 12" Sand Filter for a Pentair 2-HP, 2-Speed pump with a 150 sqft cartridge filter. Do I need to bond either the equipment pad or the pool pad? if I bond one or the other or both seperatly, do the bond loops have to be connected as well, at that distance? Is there a need to bond the water through the skimmer as has been recommended here in other posts. If the pool needs a bond loop, I'll have to figure something out as I wasn't thinking of that when the concrete was poured.

I've read all I can find, but I'm still a bit confused. I do believe I understand the difference between a ground and a bond loop from what I've read on the forum. I Believe I understand what a bond loop is supposed to accomplish. I understand the basics.....

Just not sure of the proper application for my reality....

thanks, Bob
 
What needs to be bonded is anything that you can reach from the pool that has the potential to be electrified and any electrical component, like a pump or heater. For an inground pool this includes a ladder and the pool deck as far as you can reach. You can't reach the concrete pad under an above ground pool so it doesn't need to be grounded. Concrete equipment pads don't need to be bonded in any case. In your case I would say to bond the water either at the skimmer or at the equipment pad and the pump.
 
You live in California and are governed by the California Electrical code which is essentially the 2011 NEC.

I assume you do not have a building permit. If the pool is more than 42 inches deep it requires both a building permit and bonding.

The equipment pad does not need bonding.

The pad under the pool does if it protrudes beyond the pool.

California requires a metal bonding grid under all permitter pool surfaces 3 feet from the pool. Generally surrounding the pool with a single copper #8 will not work. That probably means your pad must have a rebar grid connected to the bonding system.

If the pool wall is metal it must be connected. If it's not but the supports are they must be connected

The pool may atready have bonding lugs attached.

A water bond is required.

Both the pump and the SWG must be attached to the bonding system

This is all set out in 680.26 (B) of the Cal electrical code which you can find on the internet. Also search "Mike holt illustrated swimming pool NEC" for an illustrated guide to the code that explains all of this.

California is strict in its interpretation of the bonding requirements and California inspectors have no problem failing pools that don't comply.

You should also closely review California's fencing and gating requirements.
 
Pooldv and gwegan

I'll look up the Mike Holt illustrated guides. I've seen a couple short ones. He explains things very well.

The concrete pad does indeed protrude more than 3' around the perimeter of the pool and it does have a rebar grid as does the equipment pad.
So although there's no need for a bonding loops, the metal parts of the pool needs to be bonded to the rebar grid in the concrete pool pad as it extends past the pool itself. The pool water should be bonded and the equipment should be bonded as well.

So, now another question...It's an Ultra Frame pool and all the metal frame components are connected together with plastic/nylon slip fittings. So, there is nowhere on the frame where there is a metal to metal connection. The top rail pieces fit together with plastic/nylon push button clips fittings and is metal tubing inserted into metal tubing. Where the legs connect to the top rails, there is a plastic/Nylon fitting, so no metal to metal connection there. Does that mean that every leg must be bonded? Or does bonding have any affect at all in this particular pool type?

pooldv.....not a pump question this time. :whoot::whoot:
 
So, for clarification. The part of leg posts (top image) that goes into the top rails (bottom image) look like this. The legs go into the oval openings in the top rail
IMG_0111.jpgIMG_0110.jpg
The top rails slide together and they are metal to metal
IMG_0113.jpg

Once assembled together, (several tubing pieces make a top rail) the top rails are separate from each other but connected at the corners with bent corner tubing that has nylon/plastic inserts on both ends. The corners are floating to allow for vinyl pool bladder movement
IMG_0112.jpg

Could there be, or is there, a circuit/path formed between these separate frame pieces that would require/necessitate bonding? Not trying to be obstinate, but it seems to make no sense doing work to correct a problem that doesn't actually exist. (For example, In one of the the videos by Mike Holt, he mentions some regions of the country require unnecessary bonding to things like roof drip rails, sliding doors and windows that are completely isolated from any electrical potential which, according to Mike, actually introduces electrical potential to those areas). I can without question bond what has to be bonded, but If I bond a leg that does not have the potential to conduct electricity, am I just increasing that legs potential to conduct electric current by bonding it. Would bonding the water and equipment be sufficient?...please excuse the terminology, again I'm an upholsterer.
 
You're telling me. I tried to put a Tuff Shed larger than 120 sqft in the backyard and the county wanted a 24" wide x 24" deep rebar reinforced concrete foundation with a 6" concrete slab. The same foundation as for a residential building. Woof!
 
gwegan or anyone who wants to weigh in... I'm on a reinforced concrete slab with a rebar grid connected with wire ties. I couldn't tell from the Mike Holt videos if the pool is still to be connected at 4 spots, as would be necessary if I had looped the copper wire around the pool, or is a single connection point between the pool and the grid ok? I understand the water should be connected to that bond and I think I will connect the other equipment to the pool bond as well, even though it's 30 feet away and on a seperate contrete slab from the pool slab.
 
Below is a PDF where Mike Holt explains the NEC section by section.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwie2ZnasfbPAhXBx1QKHWjIBZoQFggoMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mikeholt.com%2Fdownload.php%3Ffile%3DPDF%2F08_Article_680_Pools_and_Similar_Installations_PART_1.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGebXTxuSqIGraBI4LqsjHZh8HRNA&sig2=sE4hhFJVPzg0nBWm4ziVUA

You have an Intex Ultra frame correct? Then the four points requirement does not apply to you. It applies to pools with conductive pool shells. Gunite, shotcrete and concrete are all considered conductive.

If there is a slab California generally will not allow the single #8 wire, they require rebar.

Depending on how the local inspector reads the code then all your metal buttresses must be individually connected to the bonding grid. So you need metal pool parts, water bond connected to rebar in slab connected to pump (distance is not a factor) and any other electric parts. Additionally all metal parts with a surface area of greater than 4 inches within five feet of the pool must be bonded.
 
I have seen that information as well as a couple of his video worksops. That guys pretty sharp. I'll take a closer look.
Yes, I have an Ultra Frame Intex pool. Reinforcing grid in the concrete is 1/2" or 5/8" rebar, wire tied together under the pool protruding 3' around the pool. I understand the water and equipment bonding requirements. Very clear. But is it possible that the inspector may require each of the 18 legs and 4 top rails (each comprised of several piece's of 3" metal tubing about 3' long) of the frame to be individually connected to the bonding grid (about 22 connections) as well or just one of the legs connected to the grid? Let's hope he's in a good mood? LOL
Thanks for taking the time. ....
 

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- - - Updated - - -

gwegan....I looked at both the links you sent and a couple videos linked to those. I realize that the implementing/application of these code standards can be subjective. When I read them, this is what I see. Can you tell me how far off I am?
The code for bonding expects an above ground pool owner to bond every metal part, larger that 4 sq. in. to the bonding grid. So for my 12 x 24 Intex Ultra Frame, that would that mean an #8 gauge bare copper wire from each of the 18 U-shaped legs, the 4 top rails, and the 4 corner connectors for a total of 28 connections to the re-bar grid in the reinforced concrete slab? Or am I thinking like a code inspector with a chip on his should? Wouldn't one connection from one leg be sufficient because the 28 metal pool parts are all connected and so can be considered as one metal piece needing bonding? And connect that to the bonding grid?

I'm just trying to understand.....anyone?
 
If the metal parts are all connected, no plastic bushings or washers then according to NEC 680.26(B)(3) one connection to the bonding grid is all that is required. I'd like more. An inspector may make a different call in the field. If the steel is totally encapsulated in plastic then it does not require bonding.

These decisions by inspectors are not wholly discretionary. The problem is the NEC is written for a huge range of situations and is a compromise. But lets be honest, the majority of DIY AGP in California probably are not bonded and probably don't meet a variety of code requirements.
 
The 18 U-shaped legs fit into the top rail (First image above). As you can see, the tops of the legs have plastic caps and that's what fits into the oval holes in the top rail (second Image above). The top rails fit together metal to metal (third Image) Does the plastic cap on the top of the leg (That slips into oval hole the top rail) insulate the top rail from the leg? Or is there still the potential for the leg to transfer stray voltage from the concrete slab to the top rail through the plastic cap?

There are no nuts, bolts or screws. the entire pool slip-fits together. No tools required..:D

I have been known to beat a dead horse in the forum.:blah::blah: Ask pooldv and mas985 about my pump thread....

Thanks for the input
 
What about duct tape? Is duct tape required? Will it transfer stray voltage? LOL! :crazy: That is different from the ultra frame I had, it was metal to metal for the top rail and the legs.

Sheesh, I know what gwegan will say. :-D Better get some extra bonding lugs.
 
I think I know what he's going to say as well. He's been very kind. With the 26 separate metal pieces being bonded to the grid it's going to look like a giant copper catapiller is weaving it's own copper cacoon to envelope the pool!! Yikes
 

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