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Thread: Help plan a new pool please

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Join Date
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    Help plan a new pool please

    Hi,

    Iím hoping to be able to get some advice from the people in here with more experience (which is just about everyone).

    I have had a 24í round AGP for the past dozen years and, in the process of maintaining it, I have learned more than I ever knew existed about pool water chemistry. The past number of years have been smooth sailing as far as maintaining balanced and safe water and a well functioning pool system.

    But, now I (and more importantly, the Mrs.) am ready for an inground.

    Iíve spoken to all the BP in my area (there arenít many) and Iíve gotten completely contradictory information and recommendations (fiberglass, gunnite, vinyl over steel, polymer, concrete, etc.), been ignored, gotten what I think are overpriced quotes, and discovered way too many nightmare reviews about each of them.

    So I decided to talk to a general contractor who I have worked with for years and trust. He said he has never made a pool. But, he has tons of experience and expertise with excavation and concrete.

    I hit upon DIY with a kit.

    Iím looking at a 22x44 by 9í at the hopper polymer walled, vinyl liner pool.

    Iíd super appreciate it if I could get some feedback on:

    1) The specs as shown below, and
    2) What tips, tricks, warnings and traps that might be useful to know in this undertaking.

    For example, digging out a 30x50 rectangle with a bottom from 42Ē to 9í shouldnít be too difficult (we have both an excavator and dozer).

    I understand I should use mason sand-based concrete for the pool bottom and a regular stone based 3500 PSI around the outside of the polymer walls. Details on any other specs for the mixes?

    Or on laying it down?

    On bottom main drains or lower side wall main drains?

    Rigid vs. Flex PVC? Iím in central NY, where the Winters are pretty darn tough, so Iím leaning towards flex, but I donít know if there are different classes or qualities, or if the flex should be buried in sand, or concrete, for example.

    I am hoping to have a concrete perimeter deck with a small cantilever overhang, but Iím concerned because the cantilever forms allow for only a 3Ē slab.

    I donít mind spending a few extra bucks for the extra inch or 2 of concrete if it will help prevent or delay cracking due to ground heaving.

    Aqua Genie or Hayward skimmer?

    Anyway, I could go on and on with all the questions that I have now that Iíve begun my research.

    Hereís the specs on the pool kit (Hydra):

    Pool Type AutoPoolCoverKit
    Pool Size 24' x 44' Pool Kit With Automatic Pool Cover
    Pool Walls Polymer $ 15,340.00
    Pool Liner Liner (30 Mil - Blue Raleigh) $ 495.00
    Pool Bottom Pool Bottom (9' Deep End With 3'4 Shallow End Select Pools Only) $ 100.00
    Corner Radius Corner Radius (6" Corner Radius) $ 150.00
    Pool Coping Coping (Cantilever Coping With Foam Concrete Forms Included) $ 595.00
    Pool Wall Braces Brace (Polymer Deck Support Brace, With Stake - Standard On Polymer Kits) $ 0.00
    Polymer Pool Step Swimming Pool Step (90 Degree Corner Step Cantilever) $ 495.00
    Liner Over Steel Pool Step None $ 0.00
    Step Location Step Location (Right Corner Of Pool) $ 100.00
    Spill Over Spas None $ 0.00
    Pool Bench None $ 0.00
    In Pool Spa None $ 0.00
    Pool Step Jet Kit None $ 0.00
    Deck Jets None $ 0.00
    Pool Pump Pool Pumps (Hayward EcoStar Variable Speed Pump) $ 665.00
    Pool Filter Pool Filter (30" Hayward Top Mount Pro Sand Filter) $ 295.00
    Pool Skimmer Skimmer (3 Aqua Genie Skimmers And 1 Return) $ 295.00
    Salt Water Chlorination Systems Styles (Hayward Aqua Rite 40k Gallon Salt System) $ 995.00
    Pool Plumbing Kit Pool Kit Plumbing Accessories (2 Inch Plumbing Kit) $ 495.00
    Pool Cleaner None $ 0.00
    Pool Light #1 Pool Light (500 WATT COLOR LOGIC LED 120 VOLTS 30' CORD AND NICHE) $ 695.00
    Pool Light #2 Pool Light (500 WATT COLOR LOGIC LED 120 VOLTS 30' CORD AND NICHE) $ 695.00
    Pool Heater Heater (Hayward Commercial H-Series 500k btu digital propane) $ 2,995.00
    Pool Diving Board None $ 0.00
    Slides None $ 0.00
    Pool Handrail Pool Handrail (Stainless Steel Handrail With Escushions) $ 0.00
    Pool Ladder Pool Ladder (Polymer In Wall Ladder With Stainless Grab Rails) $ 395.00
    Handrail & Ladder Anchors Hand Rail & Ladder Anchors (Standard Polymer Handrail & Ladder Anchors) $ 0.00
    Pool Alarm None $ 0.00
    Pool Wall Padding None $ 0.00
    Maintenance Kit Safety Rope (Safety Rope & Rope Anchors) $ 0.00
    Lift Gate Service Lift Gate Service (Customer Freight LTL Unload With Lift Gate Service) $ 35.00
    Ship-to State Ship To State (Other) $ 0.00
    Total $ 24,835.00

    Thank you,

    Joe
    24' x 54" Round AGP
    Sta-Rite PRC75 filter/pump
    Hayward H250 heater
    TF100 test kit
    Happy TFP'er despite metals in water....

  2. Back To Top    #2
    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: Help plan a new pool please

    I don't know if that is a good cost or not but I do so want to see this happen.

    Your GC should be able to help you with the plumbing subs and electric as well.

    I will be watching this one!

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit, Become a TFP supporter!

  3. Back To Top    #3

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    Re: Help plan a new pool please

    Quote Originally Posted by kimkats View Post
    I don't know if that is a good cost or not but I do so want to see this happen.

    Your GC should be able to help you with the plumbing subs and electric as well.

    I will be watching this one!

    Kim
    I'll be happy to document it here.

    Plumbing and electric are set. Nonetheless, if there are pool-specific recommendations for either, I'd love to hear them.

    Thanks!
    24' x 54" Round AGP
    Sta-Rite PRC75 filter/pump
    Hayward H250 heater
    TF100 test kit
    Happy TFP'er despite metals in water....

  4. Back To Top    #4
    Divin Dave's Avatar
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    Re: Help plan a new pool please

    Hi Joe, a couple of comments....

    Maybe it's just me, but I don't like flex PVC.

    I would recommend to plumb each skimmer individally and add a valve to each at the equipment pad. Doing so will give you flexibility to adjust the flow at each skimmer for max skimming and flow and other things.

    If I had a pool that large, I would have least 4 returns in addition to the ones on the aqua genie. I would put 2 returns per plumping line to the pad and have a valve on each plumping line. If you end up going with Hayward Skimmer, then I would say to install at least 6 returns

    Vinyl liner pool bottoms are either sand, or a mixture of portland cement and vermiculite. You can mix your own cement and vermiculite or you can buy it premixed in bags. Google "pool crete" for the premix kind. It should be 2 inches thick.

    Sand bottoms are vulnerable to footprints.
    Vermiculite/ pool crete bottoms are very difficult to smooth out while installing and you should expect to see a very not smooth bottom at night when the lights are on. (my pool has a pool crete bottoom).

    For the concrete around the footers, use the least expenive concrete. Its purpose is to secure the pool so it doesnt shift after the walls have been squared, level and plumb.
    Divin Dave,
    IG Vinyl, 15' x 30', 3 1/2' - 6' deep, Oval, ~15K gal, Intelliclor IC40, Intelliflo VS pump, Clean and Clear 420 Filter, auto-fill-disabled, Retrofit LED Color Light, Dolphin Nautilus Robot, TF100 Test Kit, Taylor K1766 Salt Test Kit, Tftestkit Pressure Gauge.
    www.tftestkits.net Experience- it's what's learned just after you needed it most !!

  5. Back To Top    #5

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    Re: Help plan a new pool please

    Quote Originally Posted by Divin Dave View Post
    Hi Joe, a couple of comments....

    Maybe it's just me, but I don't like flex PVC.

    I would recommend to plumb each skimmer individally and add a valve to each at the equipment pad. Doing so will give you flexibility to adjust the flow at each skimmer for max skimming and flow and other things.

    If I had a pool that large, I would have least 4 returns in addition to the ones on the aqua genie. I would put 2 returns per plumping line to the pad and have a valve on each plumping line. If you end up going with Hayward Skimmer, then I would say to install at least 6 returns

    Vinyl liner pool bottoms are either sand, or a mixture of portland cement and vermiculite. You can mix your own cement and vermiculite or you can buy it premixed in bags. Google "pool crete" for the premix kind. It should be 2 inches thick.

    Sand bottoms are vulnerable to footprints.
    Vermiculite/ pool crete bottoms are very difficult to smooth out while installing and you should expect to see a very not smooth bottom at night when the lights are on. (my pool has a pool crete bottoom).

    For the concrete around the footers, use the least expenive concrete. Its purpose is to secure the pool so it doesnt shift after the walls have been squared, level and plumb.
    Hi Dave,

    Thanks for the response.

    I've been reading existing threads and articles and discussions and I get the impression that flex is better than rigid in the following ways: (1) fewer sharp turns that reduce pressure, (2) fewer glue joints, (3) less likely to crack or split if frozen with water inside. Rigid has it's advantages over flex also. But, having decades of experience with PVC here in central NY with its weeks of zero degree weather, I'm super nervous about freezing pipes (despite following procedures for winterizing). I'd appreciate your thoughts on this aspect of it.

    Plumbing each skimmer is a great idea -- will do!

    Why not plumb each return separately also?

    4 to 6 returns? Wow, the kit seller recommends 2. I certainly don't mind spending a few bucks more on additional returns. But, it brings on another concern: Cutting a return hole in the liner makes me nervous also out of concern for leak. Am I being unnecessarily nervous?

    I'll look into pool crete. I'd rather have a premix truck come. Will a "mason mix" suffice?

    Thank you again very much!

    Joe
    24' x 54" Round AGP
    Sta-Rite PRC75 filter/pump
    Hayward H250 heater
    TF100 test kit
    Happy TFP'er despite metals in water....

  6. Back To Top    #6

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    Re: Help plan a new pool please

    Sure could use some more advice:

    My GC says he can build concrete walls and pour the concrete floor and we can put a pad and liner on top of it and do do away with the need for steel or polymer walls.

    Does this make sense?

    Thank you!
    24' x 54" Round AGP
    Sta-Rite PRC75 filter/pump
    Hayward H250 heater
    TF100 test kit
    Happy TFP'er despite metals in water....

  7. Back To Top    #7

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    Re: Help plan a new pool please

    absolutly,
    in fact,
    if you use the right thickness + mixture of concrete + addatives (chlorine resistors) + polishing finish,
    you can even do away with a liner,
    the concrete itself is waterproof.

    Why not pour your walls also ?

    (I did)
    40K Liter (=10K5 gallon) - concrete walls - Hayward Superpump 975W (1,3HP) 3fase powered by an external Siemens Micromaster 420 VFD - Pentair Triton TR-60 glass filter - 13,5Kw Ecoheater heatpump - Hayward Aquarite Pro LS SWG with Sense and Dispense (PH and ORP sensors) - Dryden Aqua Static Mixer - Siemens Logo (mini PLC) automatisation

  8. Back To Top    #8
    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: Help plan a new pool please

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahrand View Post
    the concrete itself is waterproof.


    What did you use to waterproof the concrete? That is what the plaster does.

    I would think you still need rebar and such if you do this BUT am not sure.

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit, Become a TFP supporter!

  9. Back To Top    #9

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    Re: Help plan a new pool please

    Quote Originally Posted by kimkats View Post
    What did you use to waterproof the concrete? That is what the plaster does.

    I would think you still need rebar and such if you do this BUT am not sure.
    No rebar needed when (newer style) fiber-reinforced concrete is used.
    The thickness + additives provides the waterproofing.
    Ask your local CEMEX ready mix center for details.
    No (technical) need anymore for additional plaster and/or liner layers (except for decorative reasons).

    This is the stuff they make basements from,
    it is equally well suited for holding water out as for holding water in.
    40K Liter (=10K5 gallon) - concrete walls - Hayward Superpump 975W (1,3HP) 3fase powered by an external Siemens Micromaster 420 VFD - Pentair Triton TR-60 glass filter - 13,5Kw Ecoheater heatpump - Hayward Aquarite Pro LS SWG with Sense and Dispense (PH and ORP sensors) - Dryden Aqua Static Mixer - Siemens Logo (mini PLC) automatisation

  10. Back To Top    #10

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    Re: Help plan a new pool please

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahrand View Post
    No rebar needed when (newer style) fiber-reinforced concrete is used.
    The thickness + additives provides the waterproofing.
    Ask your local CEMEX ready mix center for details.
    No (technical) need anymore for additional plaster and/or liner layers (except for decorative reasons).

    This is the stuff they make basements from,
    it is equally well suited for holding water out as for holding water in.
    This sounds really interesting.

    Do I understand correctly that I can make forms for the walls (after laying the plumbing) and do a monolithic pour with no need for rebar, no need for a liner or plaster or additional waterproofing?

    Sounds like it could be easier, quicker and longer lasting than a vinyl liner over steel or polymer wall pool. Yes?

    I am in central NY, where we can get weeks of 0 degree weather -- should I be concerned about cracks (and resulting leaks) from heaving?

    Thank you!
    24' x 54" Round AGP
    Sta-Rite PRC75 filter/pump
    Hayward H250 heater
    TF100 test kit
    Happy TFP'er despite metals in water....

  11. Back To Top    #11


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    bmoreswim's Avatar
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    Re: Help plan a new pool please

    Let's be clear on something important here. Ahrand is from Belgium. It is not unusual for construction practices to vary greatly by worldwide geographic region - with some regions naturally being ahead of or behind others on the continuum. Although this information could very well be true, it is discussing practices that are not yet accepted or at least not practiced by any significant number of pool builders in the US. Therefore, in order not to confuse the conversation of US pool building techniques - of which the original poster is one, please understand and consider the above in the continuation of this thread.
    18'x38' Rectangle (3'-8 1/2' deep w/ diving board) - 27K gal. Saltwater w/ gray plaster
    Hayward equipment (cartridge filter, 2-speed pump, salt cell, automation) View Our Build
    Coverstar automatic pool cover | StoneMakers concrete retaining wall and decking
    Groundbreaking: 2/14/13 | Plaster: 5/21/2013 | First Swim: 5/30/2013

  12. Back To Top    #12

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    Re: Help plan a new pool please

    Isn't this whole troublefreepool forum's raison d'Ítre to challenge the conventional wisdom in swimming pools ?
    Why would you limit this to only pool maintenance ?

    Anway, don't take my word for it (although I actually build one without a PB but with a GC),
    contact a sales rep at Cemex to ask about their
    http://www.cemexusa.com/ProductsServices/FiberReinforcedConcrete.aspx
    40K Liter (=10K5 gallon) - concrete walls - Hayward Superpump 975W (1,3HP) 3fase powered by an external Siemens Micromaster 420 VFD - Pentair Triton TR-60 glass filter - 13,5Kw Ecoheater heatpump - Hayward Aquarite Pro LS SWG with Sense and Dispense (PH and ORP sensors) - Dryden Aqua Static Mixer - Siemens Logo (mini PLC) automatisation

  13. Back To Top    #13


    TFP Guide
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    Re: Help plan a new pool please

    I don't disagree with your premise, I'm neutral. However, changing how a pool builder builds their pools is not an overnight experience which a typical (or even TFP educated) homeowner is going to accomplish. The industry moves quite slowly. Good to have a world view but also to have realistic expectations as to what will be available, practically speaking, here in the US on this specific issue.
    18'x38' Rectangle (3'-8 1/2' deep w/ diving board) - 27K gal. Saltwater w/ gray plaster
    Hayward equipment (cartridge filter, 2-speed pump, salt cell, automation) View Our Build
    Coverstar automatic pool cover | StoneMakers concrete retaining wall and decking
    Groundbreaking: 2/14/13 | Plaster: 5/21/2013 | First Swim: 5/30/2013

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