Combined Chlorine

[rivermobster]

If you wish to learn about combined chlorine in pools (not drinking water as in the EPA document you cite), the you can read these two posts -

Chloramines and FC/CYA

Chemistry of Chloramines - indoor commercial pool


Your initial post simply stated you had a Taylor test kit and your signature states "Taylor Technologies". There are many test kits and strips that Taylor markets to the pool world, so without a more precise statement, it would be hard for the reader to know exactly which kit you had. Combine that with you asking about an app that was primarily designed as a test strip reader, and I'm sure you can see how confusing your first post is.

As for the recommendations in that app, there is a lot of not-quite-right information there. If you wish to educate yourself on what the industry says versus what the truth is, you can read these threads -

Certified Pool Operator (CPO) training -- What is not taught

Breakpoint Chlorination

Yes, you are correct that Taylor sells test kits and not chemicals, but Taylor is also a major player in the pool chemical industry. DuPont is the maker of Oxone™ (MPS) which is both heavily marketed to pool chemical manufacturers like ProTeam as well as supported by Taylor through it's MPS interference removal test reagents. Historically speaking, DuPont was a major driving force in pushing MPS as a pool sanitizer and oxidizer (for obvious profit motive reasons) so it is not entirely shocking that an industry leader in pool testing would create a limit for a combined chlorine waste that would necessitate the use of a non-chlorine based shock. However, if you read the articles I suggested at the top of this post, you will see that 0.3ppm CC is nothing to worry about and that chlorine along with UV in sunlight is more than effective enough to destroy CCs without having to resort to using an expensive chemical like MPS. Given the transient nature of CC production in a low bather load residential pool, you will waste more time and money trying to measure and treat CCs than to simply focus on proper FC levels and simply track CCs as an indicator. Even on a fresh fill with treated municipal water that contains CCs (my fill water has 1ppm monochloramine in it for long-term secondary disinfection from our municipal supplier), the CC's will be rapidly destroyed within a day or two after proper FC levels are obtained.

Thanks. I will read all this when I get back. Gotta run for today. Appreciate the links. :thumbup:

 

[rivermobster]

So this topic has really made me think. And one of the things I thought of was...

What will the reading be straight out of the tap?

Interesting find...

FC - 0.6

CC - 0.4

Explains the readings of my fresh fill, and confirms that the city is causing this issue. Thus really wasn't a shocker to me, but I really did want to confirm.

I shocked the pool hard with non chlorinated shock. Now I just have to wait for it to settle down.

The links shared with me were quite informative. I suggest everyone here take the time to digest them.

I can't tell if they pinned here on Tapatalk, but if they are not, they sure should be. ?

 

[pooldv]

Well, that's a stumper!

 

[rivermobster]

Well, that's a stumper!

Fat fingers. It's fixed now. [emoji13]

 

[domct203]

So this topic has really made me think. And one of the things I thought of was...

What will the reading be straight out of the tap?

Interesting find...

FC - 0.6

CC - 0.4

Explains the readings of my fresh fill, and confirms that the city is causing this issue. Thus really wasn't a shocker to me, but I really did want to confirm.

I shocked the pool hard with non chlorinated shock. Now I just have to wait for it to settle down.

The links shared with me were quite informative. I suggest everyone here take the time to digest them.

I can't tell if they pinned here on Tapatalk, but if they are not, they sure should be. 

While it's your pool, and you can care for it anyway you wish, with your initial reported CC of 0.3 to 0.4ppm there was really no issue with the sanitation of your pool, and the non-chlorine shock was an unnecessary chemical addition & expense. The sun & chlorine would have taken care of it.

Also, TFP would never recommend that anyone "shock their pool hard". If CC's are elevated a proper SLAM will take care of it.

When I have my grandkids over and swimming, I will always check CC's as soon as they get out (they call it pop-pop's pee test). Early on in the season I was finding CC's of 1 to 1.5ppm (most likely from urine) after our swim, so I would raise FC to 25-30% of my CYA for the evening. Next evening's testing always showed less than 0.5ppm CC, and usually 0.0ppm.

It was very interesting to see that once I called them out on "adding" to the pool water that my CC test after their swim dropped to 0.5ppm for the rest of the season, and would return to 0.0ppm quickly in full sun at target FC levels.

 

[rivermobster]

While it's your pool, and you can care for it anyway you wish, with your initial reported CC of 0.3 to 0.4ppm there was really no issue with the sanitation of your pool, and the non-chlorine shock was an unnecessary chemical addition & expense. The sun & chlorine would have taken care of it.

Also, TFP would never recommend that anyone "shock their pool hard". If CC's are elevated a proper SLAM will take care of it.

When I have my grandkids over and swimming, I will always check CC's as soon as they get out (they call it pop-pop's pee test). Early on in the season I was finding CC's of 1 to 1.5ppm (most likely from urine) after our swim, so I would raise FC to 25-30% of my CYA for the evening. Next evening's testing always showed less than 0.5ppm CC, and usually 0.0ppm.

It was very interesting to see that once I called them out on "adding" to the pool water that my CC test after their swim dropped to 0.5ppm for the rest of the season, and would return to 0.0ppm quickly in full sun at target FC levels.

Good info. Thanks.

Maybe cause its winter it's not dropping rapidly? I miss the sun already...

 

[taylortechnologies]

Rivermobster – Correct, Taylor does not sell chemicals nor profits from their use. The app is intended to help people make confident decisions on their chemistry adjustments. The app allows for wet chemistry tests (like using the K-2006) or test strips.

The recommendation of treating water over a CC level of 0.2 ppm is based on industry standards and findings that bathers start to smell CC at levels above 0.2 ppm. This limit is based on bather comfort. So to your group I would say, “Follow your nose!” If you smell chlorine and it is offensive to you (we all have different tolerance levels), then treat for it. If you do not smell chlorine, then you will probably be in good shape. What would I do? I would ask my children swimming in the pool to let me know when they smell chlorine. (I would also ask them to use the bathroom in the house and not the pool.) Children can be more sensitive to the chlorine gases associated with CC, and it is their health we are trying to protect.

Having just filled your pool it is interesting that you are finding CC levels. What was the source for your fill water? Sometimes municipalities add ammonium compounds to stabilize their chlorine, which would result in CC in the fill water and your pool. (Some also add phosphate to the drinking water to control corrosion rates, which is why many people are also finding phosphates more often in their waters.)

I look forward to your reply. Thank you for your trust!

 

[domct203]

Rivermobster – Correct, Taylor does not sell chemicals nor profits from their use. The app is intended to help people make confident decisions on their chemistry adjustments. The app allows for wet chemistry tests (like using the K-2006) or test strips.

The recommendation of treating water over a CC level of 0.2 ppm is based on industry standards and findings that bathers start to smell CC at levels above 0.2 ppm. This limit is based on bather comfort. So to your group I would say, “Follow your nose!” If you smell chlorine and it is offensive to you (we all have different tolerance levels), then treat for it. If you do not smell chlorine, then you will probably be in good shape. What would I do? I would ask my children swimming in the pool to let me know when they smell chlorine. (I would also ask them to use the bathroom in the house and not the pool.) Children can be more sensitive to the chlorine gases associated with CC, and it is their health we are trying to protect.

Having just filled your pool it is interesting that you are finding CC levels. What was the source for your fill water? Sometimes municipalities add ammonium compounds to stabilize their chlorine, which would result in CC in the fill water and your pool. (Some also add phosphate to the drinking water to control corrosion rates, which is why many people are also finding phosphates more often in their waters.)

I look forward to your reply. Thank you for your trust!

As I mentioned earlier, a CC level of 0.5ppm and below is not an issue with sanitation, and as the Taylor rep has eluded, it is a matter of personal bather comfort.

I prefer to use the 10ml sample size with a test resolution of 0.5ppm. If I switch to the 25ml sample for 0.2ppm resolution I will be buying my reagents twice as often, as well as spending additional money on chemicals for the pool that I may not really need.

I have found through personal experience with my pool that with proper FC levels, sunlight, and a clean pool, my CC's are zero 98% of the time I test, and I test daily.

I will argue that despite not selling the actual pool chemical, additional chemicals in the pool means additional reagents needed, especially when using a 0.2ppm test resolution vs the 0.5ppm resolution.

 

[jblizzle]

Technically, the cc should be zero. TFP recommends treating 1 drop of reagent as negligible. If you test with 10ml of water, then 1 drop is less than 0.5ppm and nothing to worry about. If you test with a 25ml sample, then 1 drop would be less than 0.2ppm and nothing to worry about. If you used the larger sample and had to use 2 drops to clear the cc, then that would be something to keep an eye on and possibly work on it.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I'm with Dom on this. For the most part, my pool has 0 CCs (very faint pink, if at all, when R-0003 is added and 1 drop of the R-0871 completely clears it...I typically use a 25mL sample). And this should be the case for most pools. The problem is, it is not at all uncommon to see your CCs spike up every now and again. I once recorded a CC of ~1ppm when my FC was above 5ppm; it was gone the next day. I did not do anything to treat it. So the concern with publishing a CC recommended level for an outdoor pool (and a treatment methodology for it) is that you can get transient high CC measurements and spook people into thinking that they have to run out an treat it. CCs are best thought of more as an indicator level that should be watched and recorded but not necessarily acted upon unless there's a consistently high set of measurements over a well defined period of time. Even then, rather than rushing out to treat it with an additional chemical purchase, considerations should be made as to what is causing the high CCs (e.g., dirty filter, sweaty pool guests, dead rat in the skimmer, etc., etc.).

 

[domct203]

.......... CCs are best thought of more as an indicator level that should be watched and recorded but not necessarily acted upon unless there's a consistently high set of measurements over a well defined period of time. Even then, rather than rushing out to treat it with an additional chemical purchase, considerations should be made as to what is causing the high CCs (e.g., dirty filter, sweaty pool guests, dead rat in the skimmer, etc., etc.).

 

[rivermobster]

Rivermobster – Correct, Taylor does not sell chemicals nor profits from their use. The app is intended to help people make confident decisions on their chemistry adjustments. The app allows for wet chemistry tests (like using the K-2006) or test strips.

The recommendation of treating water over a CC level of 0.2 ppm is based on industry standards and findings that bathers start to smell CC at levels above 0.2 ppm. This limit is based on bather comfort. So to your group I would say, “Follow your nose!” If you smell chlorine and it is offensive to you (we all have different tolerance levels), then treat for it. If you do not smell chlorine, then you will probably be in good shape. What would I do? I would ask my children swimming in the pool to let me know when they smell chlorine. (I would also ask them to use the bathroom in the house and not the pool.) Children can be more sensitive to the chlorine gases associated with CC, and it is their health we are trying to protect.

Having just filled your pool it is interesting that you are finding CC levels. What was the source for your fill water? Sometimes municipalities add ammonium compounds to stabilize their chlorine, which would result in CC in the fill water and your pool. (Some also add phosphate to the drinking water to control corrosion rates, which is why many people are also finding phosphates more often in their waters.)

I look forward to your reply. Thank you for your trust!

Tap water. It's tests at. 4 right from the tap! I posted an article earlier about how most cities now use chlorimines to treat their water. Clearly my city is one of them!

So after shocking it hard with Shocktrine, the chlorine reading were off the charts. I shut my chlorinator off, and let everything settle back down, while keeping a close eye on everything else.

What caught my attention was...

The pressure in my filter actually went down!!! That made zero sense to me, so I pulled it apart and cleaned it.

After a couple more days, the chlorine finally checked normal, and the CC went to zero.

Happy days!!!

Right now with your app, everything is in the green. I'm stoked to finally have success.

Clearly from everything I have read (other than here) anything above.2 is excessive for a private pool. The. 5 reading is acceptable for a large public pool only.

I'm happy mine is at zero now. And everything else is in range as well. Pool looks perfectly clear. ?

One thing you might want to look into though....

On page 32 of the book that comes with the kit, first bullet point of Disadvantages to Potassium Monopersulfate Shock...

The advice there is in direct conflict with the advice on your app about Combined Chlorine.

Due to all the other information I can find, I would have to say the book information is inaccurate.

Something to look into. [emoji4]

 

[rivermobster]

All manual entries here. The camera part will not even work on my phone. Samsung S4.