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Thread: PH rises like crazy

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    PH rises like crazy

    I have probably put in 7 or 8 gallons of muric acid this year.

    I don't know or really care where ALK is. I know it is not 0 and it is under 100 from the last test, and 3 gallons of muric acid added.

    I must have the most alkaline rain anywhere. I had PH at 7.2. after 2 days of rain, it is up to 7.8 again. if not more

    I know the answer is more acid.... i will wait till it is done raining, circulate the water and test again.

    There is no aeration that i know of going into the pool.. but every few weeks i add a gallon of acid, and it goes down, but up again.

    Started the year at 220 alk thanks to pool store... but of course their test showed 100.. donkey's.

    Just talking... unless someone can think of anything... but I guess my pool is just how it is as i have read, they all vary on this issue.
    IG, 25k gallons, 20x40 ft, Plaster, Pentair sand filter, variable speed pump, have a well, TF-100 test kit, Speed Stir

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    Mod Squad Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    Nothing new really to add, but it can be frustrating. PH rise is attributable to several factors, one or more of which you will simply have to address to control:
    - New plaster
    - High TA (in many cases a TA of 50-60 helps significantly)
    - Aeration
    - High TA in local fill water

    There may be another factor or two I missed, but those stand-out. "Heavy" rains over an extended period can sometimes generate enough aeration to increase pH some as well. But check those factors at y our next opportunity and you can manage it. Have a nice weekend.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    Actually, you do care what your TA is. That is a big factor in your rising pH. We usually recommend that folks shoot for 50-70 TA. Put all your numbers into Pool Math and make sure your CSI is in the -0.3 to 0.3 range.

    And please stay out of pool $tore. You have the best test kit you could ask for.
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    I was talking from the beginning of the season for the pool store... they had me add like 2 bags of baking soda. And the reason I don't really care about ALK is everything i have read on here is... if it keeps jumping up... it needs more acid until it is stable. so.. till i see it is stable... is there a reason to know it? I think it is still coming down. I could say it is 80, and you would say add more, correct? I could say it is 50, and i think i have read, add more till it becomes stable

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Splash View Post
    Nothing new really to add, but it can be frustrating. PH rise is attributable to several factors, one or more of which you will simply have to address to control:
    - New plaster
    - High TA (in many cases a TA of 50-60 helps significantly)
    - Aeration
    - High TA in local fill water

    There may be another factor or two I missed, but those stand-out. "Heavy" rains over an extended period can sometimes generate enough aeration to increase pH some as well. But check those factors at y our next opportunity and you can manage it. Have a nice weekend.
    Rain splashing... ah yes that makes sense... will check when it stops in another day
    IG, 25k gallons, 20x40 ft, Plaster, Pentair sand filter, variable speed pump, have a well, TF-100 test kit, Speed Stir

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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    Do you use the well as a source of fill water? If so, what is the TA and pH of that well?

    You have some things mixed up. TA doesn't keep "jumping up" unless you are making it do so.

    Surely there's not so much rain up there that you can't find time to report back your findings. If you want to get it fixed or reach a better understanding of what's happening, you'll have to find time to get some test results.
    Dave S. - Forum owner
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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh View Post
    Do you use the well as a source of fill water? If so, what is the TA and pH of that well?

    You have some things mixed up. TA doesn't keep "jumping up" unless you are making it do so.

    Surely there's not so much rain up there that you can't find time to report back your findings. If you want to get it fixed or reach a better understanding of what's happening, you'll have to find time to get some test results.
    I was more just posting how it is going... I already know the answer. Maybe I should change it to, the effects of a pool store, and fixing it from here on out. I know TA doesn't jump up. I don't think I said that? The PH keeps jumping up cause of high TA. I haven't filled it with well water in a month... and tbh, I have never tested the TA of it, but I add a few hundred gallons from time to time, but not enough to add up to much.

    I wasn't thinking the rain splashing could raise PH so fast, but between high TA and that... may be why it does it after it rains most the time.
    IG, 25k gallons, 20x40 ft, Plaster, Pentair sand filter, variable speed pump, have a well, TF-100 test kit, Speed Stir

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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    Puppies,

    Another question is what pH are you trying to keep? If I try to keep pH at 7.2 it will quickly rise to 7.8. But if I try to keep a pH of 7.8, it will often stay there for weeks at a time.

    Jim R.
    Finished in 2015 - 17K Gal, IG, 20' x 25' Almost Rectangular Pool, Pebble finish, three rockport water falls. Pentair Equipment: EasyTouch 4, IC40 SWG, 3 HP VS Pump, CCP520 Cartridge Filter.
    TF100 with SpeedStir and SampleSizer, ColorQ Pro 7, Dolphin Premier Robot Cleaner, added Screen Logic 2.

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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimrahbe View Post
    Puppies,

    Another question is what pH are you trying to keep? If I try to keep pH at 7.2 it will quickly rise to 7.8. But if I try to keep a pH of 7.8, it will often stay there for weeks at a time.

    Jim R.
    I think it will stay 7.8... but i think last time it got up to like 8. something... so it keeps going up and up. id aim for 7.5 or .6 if i could get it to stay.
    IG, 25k gallons, 20x40 ft, Plaster, Pentair sand filter, variable speed pump, have a well, TF-100 test kit, Speed Stir

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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    If you think it will stay at 7.8, leave it at 7.8.....that's within the suggested range per pool school.
    Dave S. - Forum owner
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    Pup,

    You're not alone. I had similar issues when I took the pool back from the pool service, not as much acid but my pool is half your size. It's better than before but I'm still using about a gal per month of MA. To get here I lowered the TA to 50 (was well over 100) and increased the pH target to 7.6. I thought alkaline rain was the issue because I checked it coming out of the gutter (was 8) then I collected some directly in a sample container during rain and found it was 6.2. Almost certain the difference is due to construction dust in the area contaminating the gutters. Cement dust is very alkaline. Rain pH goes up and down .2 and seems related to how hard the rain is. I've read that 6 pH is actually high but certainly not high enough to raise my pool pH. I do run my pump a lot for the solar heat and that's probably a big part of the pH increase. We also keep the pool around 90 - due to happy wife, happy life principle.

    I'm not sure if this helps any but at least you know there's somebody else in similar shape. There are times I think about letting it go even higher but I know that's risky to the equipment in the long run. I do the TFP method to keep my pool looking great at a very reasonable cost with minimum chemicals and to make my expensive gem coat plaster/equipment last as long as possible... so I do the acid dance weekly for the longer term. I've got a couple of friends that brag they don't use any acid and they had to re-plaster under 10 years. Time will tell if I'm benefiting but I'm going on 4 years and the pool finish looks brand new.


    Best regards,

    Chris
    -Chris-
    2013 In-ground plaster/pebble, screen enclosed, 12000 gal w/ Jandy 2 speed 1 HP pump,Jandy CS 200 cartridge filter 800 gal spa w/ 1.5 HP booster pump, Solar heater, 2 LED lights in pool 1 light in spa, TF-100 test kit, The PoolCleaner Next Generation, Jandy RS-12 Automation system with iAqualink 2.0 control, Separate Hayward/Goldline Solar control

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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    Quote Originally Posted by setsailsoon View Post
    Pup,

    You're not alone. I had similar issues when I took the pool back from the pool service, not as much acid but my pool is half your size. It's better than before but I'm still using about a gal per month of MA. To get here I lowered the TA to 50 (was well over 100) and increased the pH target to 7.6. I thought alkaline rain was the issue because I checked it coming out of the gutter (was 8) then I collected some directly in a sample container during rain and found it was 6.2. Almost certain the difference is due to construction dust in the area contaminating the gutters. Cement dust is very alkaline. Rain pH goes up and down .2 and seems related to how hard the rain is. I've read that 6 pH is actually high but certainly not high enough to raise my pool pH. I do run my pump a lot for the solar heat and that's probably a big part of the pH increase. We also keep the pool around 90 - due to happy wife, happy life principle.

    I'm not sure if this helps any but at least you know there's somebody else in similar shape. There are times I think about letting it go even higher but I know that's risky to the equipment in the long run. I do the TFP method to keep my pool looking great at a very reasonable cost with minimum chemicals and to make my expensive gem coat plaster/equipment last as long as possible... so I do the acid dance weekly for the longer term. I've got a couple of friends that brag they don't use any acid and they had to re-plaster under 10 years. Time will tell if I'm benefiting but I'm going on 4 years and the pool finish looks brand new.


    Best regards,

    Chris
    Thanks. I think by the end of the year it will be down to around 50 by time I am done adding stuff. Chlorine does work better when the PH is lower... which is why i am trying to keep it down... so then i can slam before closing.

    it just goes up so fast, and high that it takes a bit of acid till it will finally come down... but it does tend to sit at 7.8 for a while anyways when it gets there... so i will leave it next year if it does the same thing.

    I am working on waiting till it is cold enough to close and to close it right as it is my first time trying...
    IG, 25k gallons, 20x40 ft, Plaster, Pentair sand filter, variable speed pump, have a well, TF-100 test kit, Speed Stir

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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    With CYA in the water, pH has little effect on the strength of chlorine. That statement really only applies with no CYA often found in commercial pools.

    For what it's worth, I add over a gallon per week of acid and that's with maintaining tight tolerances on TA, borates and minimal aeration.

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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    Quote Originally Posted by bdavis466 View Post
    With CYA in the water, pH has little effect on the strength of chlorine. That statement really only applies with no CYA often found in commercial pools.

    For what it's worth, I add over a gallon per week of acid and that's with maintaining tight tolerances on TA, borates and minimal aeration.

    Weird. I swear you hear everything and then some on here in some form or another. Lower it to 7.2 to slam cause it works better... but with CYA it doesn't... So... a slam is a slam no matter where PH is?
    IG, 25k gallons, 20x40 ft, Plaster, Pentair sand filter, variable speed pump, have a well, TF-100 test kit, Speed Stir

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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    The recommendation to lower the pH before a SLAM has nothing to do with the effectiveness of chlorine at lower pH levels. The recommendation is there because at FC levels above 10, the pH test is not reliable and will often read false high because of a reaction between the chlorine and the phenol red reagent. Starting a SLAM with a low pH will hopefully buy time for the SLAM to be completed before the pH rises too quickly.

    As I said before, with CYA in the water, pH level is almost irrelevant in impacting the strength of chlorine, at least to any amount the we are capable of measuring.

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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    +1 what bdavis says.
    Dave S. - Forum owner
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    Quote Originally Posted by bdavis466 View Post

    As I said before, with CYA in the water, pH level is almost irrelevant in impacting the strength of chlorine, at least to any amount the we are capable of measuring.

    cool. good to know
    IG, 25k gallons, 20x40 ft, Plaster, Pentair sand filter, variable speed pump, have a well, TF-100 test kit, Speed Stir

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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    Alkalinity and accurately measuring TA are important for at least 2 reasons. First, your pool water CSI value is directly and strongly affected by your TA. At a constant pH of 7.6 and using typical TFP parameters for a plaster pool, the difference in CSI for 60ppm TA versus 100ppm TA is over 0.26, that is, -0.24 versus +0.02. That's almost a doubling in the saturation concentration of calcium carbonate in the pool water. Second, the TA value directly affects how much acid you need to add to your pool to lower the pH. Again, using standard TFP values and going from a pH of 7.8 to 7.5, a 100ppm TA value requires 19 fl. oz of acid to reduce the pH while a 60ppm TA value requires only 9 fl. oz of MA.
    Matt
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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    Alkalinity and accurately measuring TA are important for at least 2 reasons. First, your pool water CSI value is directly and strongly affected by your TA. At a constant pH of 7.6 and using typical TFP parameters for a plaster pool, the difference in CSI for 60ppm TA versus 100ppm TA is over 0.26, that is, -0.24 versus +0.02. That's almost a doubling in the saturation concentration of calcium carbonate in the pool water. Second, the TA value directly affects how much acid you need to add to your pool to lower the pH. Again, using standard TFP values and going from a pH of 7.8 to 7.5, a 100ppm TA value requires 19 fl. oz of acid to reduce the pH while a 60ppm TA value requires only 9 fl. oz of MA.
    They did have me throw in 50 lbs of cal hypo at the beginning of the season as well, so the calcium number was quite high.

    maybe that explains some of it? Or am I not understanding?
    IG, 25k gallons, 20x40 ft, Plaster, Pentair sand filter, variable speed pump, have a well, TF-100 test kit, Speed Stir

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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    There was no mention of calcium hardness. Matt was referring to the calcite saturation index (CSI) which is a scale that indicates how aggressive or oversaturated your water is in regards to calcium carbonate content, not your calcium hardness specifically (which surprisingly has little to do with CSI). He was explaining the importance of knowing your TA level as it impacts far more than just pH rise. Next to pH, TA has a huge influence on CSI.

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    Re: PH rises like crazy

    Quote Originally Posted by bdavis466 View Post
    There was no mention of calcium hardness. Matt was referring to the calcite saturation index (CSI) which is a scale that indicates how aggressive or oversaturated your water is in regards to calcium carbonate content, not your calcium hardness specifically (which surprisingly has little to do with CSI). He was explaining the importance of knowing your TA level as it impacts far more than just pH rise. Next to pH, TA has a huge influence on CSI.
    Got it. Sorry, I see the words calcium carbonate in his reply. that is where i got confused then.
    IG, 25k gallons, 20x40 ft, Plaster, Pentair sand filter, variable speed pump, have a well, TF-100 test kit, Speed Stir

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