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Thread: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

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    New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    Hey all,

    I've never owned a pool before, I did alot of research to buy the pool, and SWG.. But I'm completely raw on getting it started..

    My local pool shop advised me to get my ALK down before adding in any of the shock or start up stuff.. The alk from my hose water is atleast 250 in the test strips, thats the highest it goes, so it could be higher.

    It's a 18x33x54" pool, 18k some odd gallons.

    I've added 5 gallons of Muratic acid and the test strip still shows 250.

    Should I keep adding Muratic Acid? Is there something else I should be doing?

    The solar cover is on the pool and the pump is running 24/7.

    I do not have the SWG running yet, It wont run untill next year. This year I am just trying to get the pool all leveled out and setup roght, then I meed to shut it down for the winter..

    Thanks in. advance for ghe advice!!

    -ThaChad

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    Mod Squad Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    Hello and welcome to TFP! Before you try to adjust any chemical levels, you have to forget about those test strips or any pool store testing. Get yourself a TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C test kit - the only two endorsed here for use. Anything else is compromising your pool care. I recommend the TF-100 for its value (link below). With those test readings, you can be sure to adjust TA and any other levels properly. We'll be glad to help you. But trying to adjust anything based on test strips is a recipe for disaster. Nice to have you with us.

    Pool School - Lower Total Alkalinity
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    I am a noobie myself but the first thing I would do (and I did NOT do for 9 months and totally regretted it) is to buy the good test kit. Makes a huge difference and is much more accurate. I know its in the pool school section. When first filling the pool, your local water will have its own "uniqueness" to it. I live in AZ and just did a refill on my pool and have had to keep adding the chemicals to get everything balanced. Use the pool math calculator (once you have that test kit) and it will do all the calculations for you!! I got the Taylor K-2006, but I hear the TF - 100 kit is even better....Keep us posted and please, lets have lots of other pros weigh in...
    _______________________________
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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    Did you check the PH after adding that much acid?
    26' X 52" Intex Ultra Frame. Intex Sand Filter
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    You can lead a horse to (clear) water, but you can't force him to swim in it!

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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    Quote Originally Posted by PAGirl View Post
    Did you check the PH after adding that much acid?
    Yes, PH is 7.2 according to the test strip.

    I know about test strips being crappy. I have owned and maintained a Saltwater Reef fish tank for 10 years... But these came with the pool and I didn't figure it was mission critical as a Saltwater Reef fish tank. But I will definitely get a liquid test kit..

    Thanks,

    -ThaChad

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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    Okay, I took a water sample down to the pool store to have them analize it on the computer, I've attached a pic of the results, quite different than the stupid test strips. They also loaned me a liquid test kit, not sure what brand. But I guarentee the conouter test is atleast alot more accurate than tge stupid test strips..

    Anyway, my PH is only 6.6 and my AK is only 187. The print out reccemonds another 2gal of Muratic acid.

    I'm going to go ahead and shock the pool and start bringing up tge chlorine level.

    A question I have for you guys, The CH of my pool right now is 8ppm, the print out says it should be 200-500ppm.. Basically my water is too soft? Soo is the CH "specs" different when I start the SWG? because SWG will always be soft right?

    Thanks all!


    IMG_3408.jpg


    -ThaChad

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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    Don't add the muriatic acid yet Chad. What kind of pool do you have (plaster, vinyl, fiberglass)? Please add to your signature. That will make a difference. The pool store testing is perhaps slightly better than test strips, but not by much. However they "should" at least be close on the pH. If it is 6.6, that's too low, and the last thing you want to add is muriatic acid which lowers it more. Start aerating your water to increase pH without increasing TA. Hopefully your kit will arrive soon to dispel any testing rumors.

    As for the CH, being low depends on the type of pool you have. Once we know your pool info we can help you more. Again, the test kit will be our best tool.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Splash View Post
    Don't add the muriatic acid yet Chad. What kind of pool do you have (plaster, vinyl, fiberglass)? Please add to your signature. That will make a difference. The pool store testing is perhaps slightly better than test strips, but not by much. However they "should" at least be close on the pH. If it is 6.6, that's too low, and the last thing you want to add is muriatic acid which lowers it more. Start aerating your water to increase pH without increasing TA. Hopefully your kit will arrive soon to dispel any testing rumors.

    As for the CH, being low depends on the type of pool you have. Once we know your pool info we can help you more. Again, the test kit will be our best tool.
    I updated my signature. It's an 18x33x54 Above ground resin pool

    Thanks,

    -ThaChad
    Trendium Pool Products Inc. (Vogue) - Azor 18' x 33' x 54" Above Ground Pool
    - Pentair Clean & Clear 150SQ/FT 1.5HP 2 Speed Cartridge Filter System (PNCC0150OF2160)
    - Hayward AquaTrol Salt Chlorine Generator (AQ-TROL-RJ)
    - Hayward Diver Dave Pool Cleaner

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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    Above ground resin huh? The key about hardness (CH) is knowing if your pool surface has any calcium built into it. Plaster of course does, so you never want a low CH. Vinyl is "N/A", and the same could be said for most fiberglass pools today, although we show minimum recommended CH mostly to prevent staining. Your kit should be here soon, so I wouldn't take too much drastic action one way or the other. Your SWG uses salt to produce FC, but you can still have hard water if your local water is hard. While we don't use pool store tests very much, we do watch what they show for iron. So once you get your recommended test kit, you can accurately confirm the CH and increase to a minimum level as needed just to ensure no iron tries to stain the surfaces. For now, I would aerate a bit to get the pH back to the low 7s and do your best to maintain an FC of 4-5 ppm and never let it drop below 3 to prevent algae from forming. We will also set a priority on a home CYA test when you get your test kit because that's extremely important to know what FC you should maintain. Stores are notorious for getting the CYA wrong.

    Post a full set of results with your own TF-100 or Taylor K-2006 (whichever you ordered) when it arrives and we can get more accurate from there.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Splash View Post
    Above ground resin huh? The key about hardness (CH) is knowing if your pool surface has any calcium built into it. Plaster of course does, so you never want a low CH. Vinyl is "N/A", and the same could be said for most fiberglass pools today, although we show minimum recommended CH mostly to prevent staining. Your kit should be here soon, so I wouldn't take too much drastic action one way or the other. Your SWG uses salt to produce FC, but you can still have hard water if your local water is hard. While we don't use pool store tests very much, we do watch what they show for iron. So once you get your recommended test kit, you can accurately confirm the CH and increase to a minimum level as needed just to ensure no iron tries to stain the surfaces. For now, I would aerate a bit to get the pH back to the low 7s and do your best to maintain an FC of 4-5 ppm and never let it drop below 3 to prevent algae from forming. We will also set a priority on a home CYA test when you get your test kit because that's extremely important to know what FC you should maintain. Stores are notorious for getting the CYA wrong.

    Post a full set of results with your own TF-100 or Taylor K-2006 (whichever you ordered) when it arrives and we can get more accurate from there.


    Will do, thanks for the help.

    May I ask why a computer test would considered bad? Typically Digital testing equipment is far more accurate and much more specific down to much smaller specs than a liquid test is.. As I mentioned, I have had a Saltwater Reef fish tank for about 10 years and while I still use liquid test kits to verify my digital testing equipment is reading correctly, the digital test equipment is far more accurate, because it reads is MUCH smaller differences than a liquid test does... The key to digital test equipment is calibration..
    Trendium Pool Products Inc. (Vogue) - Azor 18' x 33' x 54" Above Ground Pool
    - Pentair Clean & Clear 150SQ/FT 1.5HP 2 Speed Cartridge Filter System (PNCC0150OF2160)
    - Hayward AquaTrol Salt Chlorine Generator (AQ-TROL-RJ)
    - Hayward Diver Dave Pool Cleaner

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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    Sure, pool store testing is inherently inaccurate for a few reasons:
    - Improper incandescent lighting skews results
    - Seasonal/poorly trained staff
    - Rushed testing/long lines
    - Agenda to produce reports designed to sell items (more costly and usually not needed)

    While there are some at-home digital testers members will use, most rely on what is simply recommended as tried & true drop testing that has proven to be reliable for many years across thousands of TFP pools. Of course they don't test for salt, so a separate salt test method (drops or strips) is required, but for the FC, CC, CYA, pH, TA, and CH, the TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C are extremely reliable for at-home testing.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Splash View Post
    Sure, pool store testing is inherently inaccurate for a few reasons:
    - Improper incandescent lighting skews results
    - Seasonal/poorly trained staff
    - Rushed testing/long lines
    - Agenda to produce reports designed to sell items (more costly and usually not needed)

    While there are some at-home digital testers members will use, most rely on what is simply recommended as tried & true drop testing that has proven to be reliable for many years across thousands of TFP pools. Of course they don't test for salt, so a separate salt test method (drops or strips) is required, but for the FC, CC, CYA, pH, TA, and CH, the TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C are extremely reliable for at-home testing.
    Fair enough, as with Saltwater Fish, the pet store will do your water tests, but with out your own home testing, there's no possible way to be successful and for many of the same reasons their tests are incorrect..

    That said, my local pool store is owned by a husband and wife, they are the only employees and have owned the business for 20 years...

    Anyway, I put 2 bags (1lb each) of shock in the pool, which said it was good for 20k gallons, waited 48 hours and tested with the liquid test kit on loan from the pool store and it shows "0" Chlorine....

    On the plus side, the pool went from turquoise to clear/light green... Soo the Chlorine must have done something!

    Now the question is, Do I just keep putting more shock until the chlorine levels come up? or is there something else I should be doing?

    Thanks!

    -TheChad
    Trendium Pool Products Inc. (Vogue) - Azor 18' x 33' x 54" Above Ground Pool
    - Pentair Clean & Clear 150SQ/FT 1.5HP 2 Speed Cartridge Filter System (PNCC0150OF2160)
    - Hayward AquaTrol Salt Chlorine Generator (AQ-TROL-RJ)
    - Hayward Diver Dave Pool Cleaner

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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    That subtle change would seem to indicate that chlorine is helping. To clear that green to blue then eventually crystal clear water, you need to know two things extremely accurately - FC and CYA. When you look at the Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart, you see that the proper FC level is based on the existing CYA. That's why your own kit and proper testing is so important. The report above simply says 20-50 (with 50 circled). Testing on your own might prove to show a different number. In any case, once you are sure of the CYA, then you adjust to the "SLAM/Shock FC" level for that CYA and maintain it until you pass the 3 criteria of a "SLAM" (link below in my sig.

    For chlorine, don't use those store "bags". If they are trichlor or dichlor, you're pumping-up that CYA each time. Stick to regular/plain bleach from the grocery store. That's your #1 product of choice with no side effects when used properly. Use the http://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html to help you figure-out how much product to use for each dose.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Splash View Post
    That subtle change would seem to indicate that chlorine is helping. To clear that green to blue then eventually crystal clear water, you need to know two things extremely accurately - FC and CYA. When you look at the Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart, you see that the proper FC level is based on the existing CYA. That's why your own kit and proper testing is so important. The report above simply says 20-50 (with 50 circled). Testing on your own might prove to show a different number. In any case, once you are sure of the CYA, then you adjust to the "SLAM/Shock FC" level for that CYA and maintain it until you pass the 3 criteria of a "SLAM" (link below in my sig.

    For chlorine, don't use those store "bags". If they are trichlor or dichlor, you're pumping-up that CYA each time. Stick to regular/plain bleach from the grocery store. That's your #1 product of choice with no side effects when used properly. Use the http://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html to help you figure-out how much product to use for each dose.

    Okay, I added about 13.25 oz of Pool life Rapid Shock, which says it is 68% Calcium Hypochlorite, 32% Other Ingredients and Minimum Available Chlorine 65%.

    Today the Pool is crystal clear and the chlorine tests 5ppm with the liquid test kit barrowed from the pool store. The PH is still low, I took the solar cover off today and the return jet is breaking the surface. So hopefully that will start bringing the PH up.

    I am on kind of a time crunch being that I must get this pool closed down in the next couple of weeks before the freeze begins. So while I have ordered my own liquid test kit and will follow all of the instructions you've given, Mother nature's time is against me.

    Now that the chlorine level is up, I will continue testing daily. I will check the CYA tomorrow and see where were at and I will keep checking the PH until it gets above 7.2.

    My alk is still at 180, I checked it today. Do I need to bring that down before winter? or will it be okay until Spring? Is there anything I need to add or do before shutting it down for winter and what should I do to prepare it for winter shutdown?

    Thanks for your help! I am unfortunately running out of time and I will be doing a lot of reading over the winter, but I want to make sure I get this setup and shut down right so that I don't have to fight it for weeks or months in the spring.

    -ThaChad
    Trendium Pool Products Inc. (Vogue) - Azor 18' x 33' x 54" Above Ground Pool
    - Pentair Clean & Clear 150SQ/FT 1.5HP 2 Speed Cartridge Filter System (PNCC0150OF2160)
    - Hayward AquaTrol Salt Chlorine Generator (AQ-TROL-RJ)
    - Hayward Diver Dave Pool Cleaner

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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    So with the way this pool is using up chlorine, is it normal that when you open the pool up in the Spring there won't be any Chlorine in the water?

    I have added 7lbs of chlorine at this point, it all gets used up within 24 hours. My Ph is back up to 7.2, I added 1 more gallon of Muriatic acid last night.

    I guess if My PH is 7.2 and my Alk is >120, Do I need to worry about chlorine for the winter, being that it gets used up after 24 hours?

    I guess I'm not overly concerned with the chlorine being used up soo fast as I will have the SWG on the pool next year, so It should maintain the chlorine level, Obviously I will have to get all other levels right in the spring..

    What about metals? My hose water has metals in it, The pool store has metal remover but it's $20 a bottle of powder. Is that the only way to remove metals?

    Thanks!

    -ThaChad
    Trendium Pool Products Inc. (Vogue) - Azor 18' x 33' x 54" Above Ground Pool
    - Pentair Clean & Clear 150SQ/FT 1.5HP 2 Speed Cartridge Filter System (PNCC0150OF2160)
    - Hayward AquaTrol Salt Chlorine Generator (AQ-TROL-RJ)
    - Hayward Diver Dave Pool Cleaner

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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    I wouldn't worry about the TA right now. Prepare for closing and you can address it in the spring. My guess is that the chlorine consumption means your water is still fighting something you don't see. If you get the test kit before closing, you will be able to test the FC more accurately which will help immensely. I would encourage you to stick with regular bleach to increase FC since it's usually cheapest and virtually pure chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) - without the added ingredients or side-effects the other products add.

    Can FC go to zero over the winter? ... sure. But if you are able to clean any remaining algae/organics before closing and possibly supplement with some Polyquat 60, it should help you get further through the winter. Temps are dropping soon, but hang-on as long as you can, then open as early as possible to get a jump on the algae.

    For now, when the test kit arrives, focus on CYA, then adjusting the FC to the proper level for that CYA. Your pH should be at about 7.2 as you start the SLAM and increase FC. Hope that helps.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
    If you enjoyed your TFP experience, please consider donating to Support TFP!

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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Splash View Post
    I wouldn't worry about the TA right now. Prepare for closing and you can address it in the spring. My guess is that the chlorine consumption means your water is still fighting something you don't see. If you get the test kit before closing, you will be able to test the FC more accurately which will help immensely. I would encourage you to stick with regular bleach to increase FC since it's usually cheapest and virtually pure chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) - without the added ingredients or side-effects the other products add.

    Can FC go to zero over the winter? ... sure. But if you are able to clean any remaining algae/organics before closing and possibly supplement with some Polyquat 60, it should help you get further through the winter. Temps are dropping soon, but hang-on as long as you can, then open as early as possible to get a jump on the algae.

    For now, when the test kit arrives, focus on CYA, then adjusting the FC to the proper level for that CYA. Your pH should be at about 7.2 as you start the SLAM and increase FC. Hope that helps.

    Okay, I'm at the store, looking at the bleach and it says it's only 8.25% sodium hypochlorite, and 91.75% "Other Ingredients",

    Says yields 7.85% available chlorine.

    Is this what I want? or am I missing something?

    Thanks!

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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    Sorry I didn't see your post earlier. Early night for me. Yes, that's the right kind of bleach. Just make sure it's plain/regular with no scents or splashless and you're good-to-go.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    Part of the rapid disappearance of chlorine probably has to do with low CYA (stabilizer) levels - your original store printout shows 2 for CYA. Since this is new water, and you may well have added no stabilizer yet, that would make sense. The powdered shock you've been using is cal hypo, according to your report, so that would not have added CYA either. If you have sun on the water, i.e. no cover on pool and sunny weather, unstabilized chlorine has a short half life (on the order of half an hour in strong sunlight).
    18' x 48" ring top pool (Summer Escapes); 5500 gallons; set up June - October, stored during winter; Intex 2500 gph pump (B size cartridge filter) Hayward 21" sand filter + 1.5 hp single speed Powerflo Matrix pump (upgrade October 2016) *** K-2006 test kit, refills from tftestkits

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    Re: New Pool, Hose Filled. Super High Alk.

    Quote Originally Posted by singingpond View Post
    Part of the rapid disappearance of chlorine probably has to do with low CYA (stabilizer) levels - your original store printout shows 2 for CYA. Since this is new water, and you may well have added no stabilizer yet, that would make sense. The powdered shock you've been using is cal hypo, according to your report, so that would not have added CYA either. If you have sun on the water, i.e. no cover on pool and sunny weather, unstabilized chlorine has a short half life (on the order of half an hour in strong sunlight).

    I bet your right..

    So should I get a shock that has CYA in it, or should I buffer that separately?

    I also do not have the floating chlorinator with pucks in it, in the pool. Should I get some pucks and float the chlorinator?


    Thanks,

    -ThaChad
    Trendium Pool Products Inc. (Vogue) - Azor 18' x 33' x 54" Above Ground Pool
    - Pentair Clean & Clear 150SQ/FT 1.5HP 2 Speed Cartridge Filter System (PNCC0150OF2160)
    - Hayward AquaTrol Salt Chlorine Generator (AQ-TROL-RJ)
    - Hayward Diver Dave Pool Cleaner

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