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Thread: Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

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    Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

    Hello,

    I bought a used Marquis Oasis Leisure spa which was wired for 240V. I hired a licensed electrician to come out and wire it up for 120V to save on the costs in dealing with installing 240V outside.

    It took about 2 days to heat up from ambient (probably 64F) to 95F and is stuck there. The temperature drops pretty quickly if I disconnect the spa, and it rises a bit (the highest I've ever gotten it is 98F) if I baby it by running the jets every 20 minutes or so (on an 8 minute shutoff cycle). I measured the resistance across the heating element and it seemed fine (not open loop and not zero, I don't remember the exact reading 16KOhms, maybe?), but even when the heat light is on, I didn't measure any voltage across the terminals.

    The attached diagram indicate swapping J8 from 30A to 20A, but, J8 isn't a jumper terminal. J23, however, is, and that's set appropriately.

    There is an off board transformer and an off board relay. I don't know if either of them would need to be replaced, but as the "Conversion Instructions" don't mention it, it would seem odd. The Relay is a Zettler AZ2280-1C-240A. I haven't checked the transformer yet.

    I bypassed the pressure switch, and that didn't seem to change anything.

    I ran it without the filter, and that didn't seem to change anything.

    Any ideas? I'll triple check all the wiring.

    Oh, and QUESTION: There is no earth ground connected. I disconnected it at the pickup location, but never replaced it. Is an earth ground necessary in a 120V GFI setup?

    Thanks for any tips. I've been screwing around with this for weeks and learned a lot about spas, but haven't solved my problem yet...

    David


    Wiring Diagram.jpg

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    Isaac-1's Avatar
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    Re: Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

    A few questions, first where is Lompoc (please edit your location to include state, territory or country) I ask because our culprit may be different if you are in Arizona vs northern Canada.

    My second question given the age of the tub is what sort of condition is the cover in, waterlogged covers do not insulate well. Also what size is this tub?

    One possibility may be the high limit sensor tripping at too low of temperature
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
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    Re: Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

    Thanks Isaac,

    Lompoc is in southern/central California. Ambient temperatures have been low 60s to mid 80s lately.

    The cover was pretty beat up with rips in the lining, but I replaced it with a new one, and it hasn't changed anything.

    It's a small 130 gallon tub.

    I used a laser thermometer to look for heat leaks, but the only thing obvious I found was in the control area. The pump gets quite hot (I think 150F), but nothing else seems to. I don't think the heating manifold ever gets significantly hotter than anything else. Shouldn't that be the hottest part of the system, or is it just well insulated?

    I wondered about the high limit sensor, but figured it would be reading the same temperature as the display. Maybe I'm mistaken there, but I'd still guess that if that were the problem I'd see a hard limit, rather than a mooshier limit I'm seeing between 91-98F.

    I'd also guess it's a board problem, but I don't *see* any defects (obviously not so say there aren't any), and then wouldn't I be seeing a much lower temperature than a sustained 90 range?

    Thanks again!

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    Re: Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

    If you have an AC clamp meter you can confirm that the heater is drawing the right number of amps and therefore heating. Even a cheap clamp meter would work since you don't need a great deal of precision, I assume that your heater is 4000 watts at 240V or 1000 watt at 120V and therefore should draw about 8 - 9 amps when connected for 120V. (halve the voltage and get 1/4 the watts output from any resistive heating element)

    Sorry I can't give any more specific ideas, my spa is also a 120/240V convertable running on 120V, however it is a Hot Spring model and they use their own components (heaters, controllers, etc.) which may be wired slightly differently

    Ike

    p.s. my tub is a 215 gallon "3 person, really more like 1.5" and uses a 6000/1500 watt heater, it has no problem reaching 104 degrees even in winter, cold fill water takes less than 24 hours to warm up.

    another thought, I am not sure what type of insulation your tub has on the cabinet, might it be waterlogged?
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
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    Re: Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

    One thing I can say is that it does need to be grounded.
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

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    Re: Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

    Thanks again, Ike!

    I have spray insulation throughout. It seems to work and I don't see any breaks and haven't noticed any waterlogging. I'll look more closely.

    I did a current test with a cheap meter, and I didn't read much at all, maybe 1/2 amp, IIRC, but I'm new to this clamp ammeter thing, so I might have messed that up! It's much simpler, though, that rewiring stuff to put the meter in series!

    Thanks again for the tips; I'll keep poking around.

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    Re: Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

    When using a clamp meter it is important to only have a single conductor running through it if you have an entire 2 wire cord going through they cancel each other out.
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
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    Re: Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

    Thanks! I eventually figured that out.

    Dumb question, do they work with DC? I go a zero reading on my solar panel that I know was generating some juice...

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    Re: Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

    Some expensive clamp meters work on DC, but most don't, I have not priced them lately though. I have a Fluke 337A clamp meter which does read DC
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
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    Re: Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

    The 120 volt option was good for only one thing it moved portable spas off of showroom floors, it saved many deals that became dead in the water after the 240volt bomb was dropped on a customer who thought they only had to plug it in next to the tv or something, in the 1980's a customer would say "you mean i can plug it in anywhere?" and the salesman would say " you betcha" it wasn't until after the check was cashed, and the spa was in the customers backyard for a few days that things like, why does it take so long to heat up? why does the spa water cool down 10 degrees after only 10 minutes of use? I thought you said i could just plug it in? etc. a few more days go by and the customer feels like a complete fool, hes loading his pistol, the last phone conversation he had with the salesman sounded like..MOTHER F^&*&*&%$%..IM GONNA KICK YOUR #&$

    Eventually the contracts had in small print "customer must supply voltage of 120/240v on a dedicated circuit" etc,etc. and the customer would initial it.
    For the most part, a customer would ask "so i only need 120v and the spa will work right?" and the salesman wouldn't be lying when he said "you betcha"

    Here is how bad a 120 volt connection actually is:

    1) They are so inefficient, you are trying to heat the spa with the equivalent of a hand held 1000 watt blow dryer
    2) When you turn the high jets on, the heater becomes disabled (spa will heat on low speed ONLY)
    3) If you have an air blower on the spa, and use it together with high jet mode, you will lose heat, the air blower will win the fight over the heater even when it heats, what took 2 days to finally get to even 98* has now been lowered to 85* in 15 minutes of trying to use the spa ( you wont even recover 1*or 2* in 30 minutes, let alone 15*) the spa has no ability to recover any heat loss.
    4) You now discovered that you can raise 15* by the next day, but you can't run the high jets or air blower, so with the cover off, and low speed heat on, the ambient night time temps will be the enemy, and you might get 20 minutes use, and the temp lowers to 92*
    5) a few more days go by, and you wonder if the original owner of the spa when new, might be doing life without parole after he went back to the spa showroom and "snapped"
    6) The spa after 2 months now sits unplugged, and you join the rest of the 90% or so bitter spa owners that had 120 volt connections also. (excuse my humor, but it's true)

    Your high limit sensor is mounted on the heater manifold/housing if it tripped it would display "hi" (or something like that)

    Both the temp and hi limit sensors can be checked with an ohm meter, there is a temp to resistance chart from balboa, if it is 60* then look up 60* on the chart and next to 60* it will say 20k ohm the resistance values change up or down with temp changes.

    The temp sensor is either along side the hi limit sensor on the manifold, or inserted in a thermal well fitting on the spa shell, trace where the temp sensor is, and if it can be removed and just left hanging, and away from the heat source it normally detects, it will trick it into thinking the spa is 70* like the ambient outdoor temp is, and you can see if the temp rises any better that way, DO NOT leave it out, DO NOT bypass the pressure switch either, sometimes a little extra spa temp increase can be obtained when the temp sensor is pulled out of the thermal well a little, as it blends with the ambient temp more. be careful and understand what you are doing, the words "guess" "maybe" or any word that has a meaning of uncertainty, have nothing to do with electrical diagnostics, either you know 100% whats going on with electrical, or you don't, if you rate yourself at 70%, then you open yourself up to a 30% chance of doing something wrong or expensive, etc.

    If you do not understand how to use a multi meter or any device used to measure electrical values you automatically drop to 10% with 90% chance of a disaster (that was harsh, maybe 25%)

    If the heating element checks out ok ohm wise, and if the meter displays 120v when the probes are on the heating element terminals when the spa calls for heat, then it works.

    All things considered, the only problem with your spa is that it is old, and hooked up to 120v. period, end of story.

    Hope this helps.

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    Re: Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

    Ha! Thanks, it does help!!!

    The only reason I question my skill with a multimeter is that the spa is at 95, the heater light is on, the resistance of the coil looks good, and I'm seeing no voltage across the terminals. That doesn't add up to me.

    Love the humor I guess I'll save up for the 240V install. Your assessment explains why I can do a search for "convert 120V spa to 240v" and come up with a bazillion hits, but none for "covert 240v hot tub to 120v." Even the electrician setting it up warned me.

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    Re: Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

    Let me say the opposite on the 120 vs 240 VAC at least when it comes to my Hot Spring Jetsetter. I bought this tub used 2 or 3 years ago, it is a 1998 model, however it is in great shape for its age, and likely spent its entire life indoors, as well as being disconnected and in storage for a number of years before I bought it. At the time I bought it I intended to run a 240V connection, however I already had a dedicated 20 amp outlet next to where I would be placing the tub, so I decided to try it first and see. While I do see a little cooling off while running the jets (it runs either heater or jets, but not both at once on 120V) it is not objectionable, this may be helped by having a heat recovery shroud over the pump motor. In general the only downside I have to running in 1500 watt 120v mode vs 6000 watt 240V mode is the fact I have to wait until the next day to use the tub after a water change, which is typically done 3 -4 times per year. Now this is on a 215 gallon tub, I might feel differently if I had a 350 gallon tub which were also sold with 1500 watt 120V heaters by Hotspring, and smaller 1000 watt heaters by other companies.
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
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    Re: Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

    Quote Originally Posted by 4LegsGood View Post
    Hello,

    I bought a used Marquis Oasis Leisure spa which was wired for 240V. I hired a licensed electrician to come out and wire it up for 120V to save on the costs in dealing with installing 240V outside.

    It took about 2 days to heat up from ambient (probably 64F) to 95F and is stuck there. The temperature drops pretty quickly if I disconnect the spa, and it rises a bit (the highest I've ever gotten it is 98F) if I baby it by running the jets every 20 minutes or so (on an 8 minute shutoff cycle). I measured the resistance across the heating element and it seemed fine (not open loop and not zero, I don't remember the exact reading 16KOhms, maybe?), but even when the heat light is on, I didn't measure any voltage across the terminals.

    The attached diagram indicate swapping J8 from 30A to 20A, but, J8 isn't a jumper terminal. J23, however, is, and that's set appropriately.

    There is an off board transformer and an off board relay. I don't know if either of them would need to be replaced, but as the "Conversion Instructions" don't mention it, it would seem odd. The Relay is a Zettler AZ2280-1C-240A. I haven't checked the transformer yet.

    I bypassed the pressure switch, and that didn't seem to change anything.

    I ran it without the filter, and that didn't seem to change anything.

    Any ideas? I'll triple check all the wiring.

    Oh, and QUESTION: There is no earth ground connected. I disconnected it at the pickup location, but never replaced it. Is an earth ground necessary in a 120V GFI setup?

    Thanks for any tips. I've been screwing around with this for weeks and learned a lot about spas, but haven't solved my problem yet...

    David


    Wiring Diagram.jpg
    Did you figure this out yet? This panel is very similar to the Balboa in my Jacuzzi. I have had to do a lot of work on it. Lots of problems with the mechanical solenoids. So I am somewhat familiar with it if you still need help.
    When I zoom into your wiring diagram pic, it gets a little blurry. A better quality picture would help.
    Intex 16'x32'x54" 17Kgal AGP since 2014. Sand filter, Hayward skimmer, home built 10'x15' deck and stairs, solar heater. High TA tap water, moderate rainfall, weekly use. Treated with 10% bleach, MA and some dichlor initially. Soon to add borates.
    Taylor K2006C
    Future projects - automatic chlorine pump, online pool sensors, better heater, IGP (maybe)

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    Re: Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

    I'll see what I can do about taking a better photo. It's hard to read in person too!

    I hooked up an earth ground, which didn't seem to make any noticeable difference.

    I checked every wire in the setup, and a couple that I thought might be reversed were fine upon further inspection. The off board relay I mentioned in the OP, if I'm reading it right, is only for the Ozonator, so even if it's the wrong voltage, I don't think it's going to matter or cause my problem.

    What I ended up with is that I believe the terminal block wasn't switched back to the 120V configuration. If I read the conversion box/terminal figure (bottom right) backwards, there should be a red wire connected from TB1 to Relay 5. Instead I had the wire connected from TB4 to Relay 5, and inasmuch as it's 120V there's no red power wire, so unless the other red connection at TB4 is connected to a hot or neutral somewhere down the line, it's just floating, which I believe was the case. I think the only connection is to the 20A fuse, which is floating in the current configuration), so I took out the red leads from TB4,which were soldered together, and soldered in such a way as though it looks like they were done at the factory. Hard to explain, but the solder block was perfectly cylindrical, which led me to believe it wasn't the onsite electricians who did the work. I clipped those two red wires apart, and ran one to TB1 and reconnected the other to TB4. The one connected to TB1 now connects to Relay 5.

    So again, I reversed step 3 in the conversion (from 120 to 240) in the Conversion instructions box.

    I plugged it back in, and nothing exploded (good sign).

    I then turned up the heat, and the heat light went on, and I measured across the heater element and read 120V. I used the clamp on ammeter and read 7+ amps through each lead to the heater.

    I left the tub at 72 at 9:30 AM with the heater on. When I get home in 10 hours, I'll see if it helped, but I'm guessing it will. Whether the 1KW heater is adequate in general remains to be seen.

    My guess as to what was happening is that there was never any current to the heating element, and all the heat was generated by the jet motor. This is why if I babied the tub and ran the jets every 20 minutes, I could nudge up the heat. It's a little alarming (isn't it?) that the pump can bring the tub to 95 and keep it there, but maybe that's normal on such a small tub?

    Anyway, that's the report for today. I'll let you know how things turn out...

    Thanks again for all the input!

    David

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    Re: Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

    It is somewhat normal on small tubs, in fact some cheaper tubs don't even have heating elements they just recycle waste heat from the pumps to heat the water, which is not the most economical option.
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
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    Re: Down converting from 240 to 120V Marquis Leisure tub from about 2002

    102F.jpg

    Ta da!

    Looks like it was just a wire that wasn't moved in the conversion back. 102F at 7AM this morning with it about 54F ambient temperature. It heated at 2 degrees/hour more or less solid until it hit the set temp of 102 and turned off. This AM I left the lid off for about 30 minutes (without running the jets) and it held at 102. I expect with the jets running in the cold, it'll drop, but for now this is a BIG improvement.

    Thanks again everyone for your tips and patience!!!

    David

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