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Thread: How am I doing?

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    How am I doing?

    Ok, so I -think- I'm done SLAM-ing.

    Night0-FC24->Morn1-FC18.5->FC24(I added chlorine and MA)
    Night1-FC21->Morn2-FC22 (measurement error?)
    Night2-FC22->Morn2-FC23 (measurement error?)

    So so I have 2 nights where I -think- I'm not consuming FC. So my plan today is to NOT amp it back up tonight, and let it drift back to 4 plus or minus. (Unless someone tells me otherwise)

    TE:80
    FC:23
    PH:7.4
    TA:120
    CH:630
    CA:55
    SA:3300
    BO:40
    CS:-0.01

    So then, I -think- my next step should be to bring down the TA. When I started the TFP approach, TA was off the charts. I have successfully been able to step it down. I'm using spa jets and spa waterfall to aerate.

    I -think- I need to up THE CA, but I don't want to! Help me get over this. Here is why I don't want to:

    1) I'm adding FC all day with my SWG. Who need more stabilization? Just up the SWG if there is more UV breakdown, and there is an effectively constant feed of FC, all day when it is breaking down.

    2) less CA, means I need lower FC set point, no?

    3) lower CA means nicer water (softer, less irritating).

    4) BOrates also help buffer, no? So can't we arrive at a lower CA recommendation IFF Borates are present?

    5) once I raise CA, there seems to be no way to lower them, so this is a one way deal like salt, so I want to make absolutely sure I need to up them.

    6) easier to SLAM because I need lower FC, so I won't need to add as much liquid chlorine.

    7) Adding less chlorine means adding less salt, means keeping the salt levels lower longer


    So, where did my thinking go wrong? (I realize a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing).

    Also, do I need to keep SLAM-ing?


    Jon -- 28kgal, IG, AquaBright, Attached Spa, ~1990, Quad DE 80, Easytouch8, IntelliFloVS-3050, Intellichlor60, IntelliPh, Dolphin DX6, City Water, K-2006/TF-100, SpeedStir, SampleSizer, San Diego, CA

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    needsajet's Avatar
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    Re: How am I doing?

    Nice to meet you via TFP. Good to have you here and I'd say you're doing great

    I see one error in your SLAM (adding acid while SLAMing) so I just want to be sure you're following the article closely. There are three criteria to end a SLAM. Tell us about all three.

    1 and 2) Yes, increasing CYA will require a higher FC target, however less FC will need to be added each day. That's why we run it a bit higher than you are. It's your choice, you can run it lower and it will work. Your SWC will just run more and wear out a bit sooner. And you're likely to consume a bit more acid to counteract the upward pressure on pH that arises from the SWC.

    3) I've never heard of that

    4) Borates buffer upward pH rise. They do not affect FC or CYA

    5 and 6 are true. Objective is to SLAM once and never need to do it again. So be sure your SLAM is truly finished and effective before raising CYA.

    7) SWC does not add salt. SLAMing adds a bit. The added salt from an occasional SLAM is not likely to cause problems.

    Good post by the way! Take a look at "Read Before Posting" (linked in my signature) for our standard way of presenting the water chemistry. It just helps our old eyes interpret a bit quicker
    12k IG salt; glass beads in plaster; K-2006C, K-1766, CCL, and Aussie 4in1 (HTH); Pentair Eco800 1.2HP VS; Zodiac SWC 1.3 lb/day (25 g/hr); 25" filter recycled glass; OKU solar panels; 1/2 HP solar pump; Rebel (Warrior) pool cleaner; FlowViz; prior pool AG 10k | Read Before Posting to get the best possible advice | ... and this helped me a lot!: TFPC for Beginners

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    Re: How am I doing?

    Thanks! Very helpful. Very. I'm one of these people that struggles if I don't get the "why" part of it, so this really helps me. Then I don't need to "trust" a salesman, it either makes sense or it doesn't. Salesman insurance so to speak.

    Not sure what I did wrong with the SLAM. I started with PH of ~7.3. I -think- you are saying don't bother to add the MA after you start, let the PH drift up each day? Just keep adding chlorine, as it gets consumed by algae/sun? Anyway, followed directions to the best of my understanding, help me figure out what I'm not getting right.

    I am not sure what I did wrong with the test results. Let me assime it is formatting with dashes. I'll update in a minute. Maybe it is missing CC, I'll add that from memory for now.

    Ok, so I'm on board with raising CYA. I'll target the low end so I don't have to worry about going over, and so if I have to SLAM, I won't need to raise the levels excessively. Also, I'm probably not very good at executing the test yet, so this will leave me room for error. CYA is on the way!
    Jon -- 28kgal, IG, AquaBright, Attached Spa, ~1990, Quad DE 80, Easytouch8, IntelliFloVS-3050, Intellichlor60, IntelliPh, Dolphin DX6, City Water, K-2006/TF-100, SpeedStir, SampleSizer, San Diego, CA

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    Re: How am I doing?



    Clarity-crystal clear.
    TE - 80 degrees
    FC - 23
    CC - 0 (or maybe I'm not a skilled tester yet?)
    PH - 7.4
    TA - 120
    CH - 630
    CA - 55
    SA - 3300
    BO - 40
    CS - -0.01


    Is this more like it? I noticed I missed putting my location in, so I added that, and I also noticed I didn't put water clarity, so I added that.


    And again, great answers to my questions. I clearly har confused some things (Borate buffering PH not FC), and the rest, great responses.

    Thanks!



    Jon -- 28kgal, IG, AquaBright, Attached Spa, ~1990, Quad DE 80, Easytouch8, IntelliFloVS-3050, Intellichlor60, IntelliPh, Dolphin DX6, City Water, K-2006/TF-100, SpeedStir, SampleSizer, San Diego, CA

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    Re: How am I doing?

    Oh, and my original question,

    1) water is clear,
    2) overnight FC appears stable, and
    3) CC seems to be very low (I'll check again tonight).

    Should I SLAM for another day? Or can I let FC drop back to normal?

    With my new filter (not yet installed), I'm hoping the pool will be useable by Saturday. Can FC drop quickly enough for use by then?
    Jon -- 28kgal, IG, AquaBright, Attached Spa, ~1990, Quad DE 80, Easytouch8, IntelliFloVS-3050, Intellichlor60, IntelliPh, Dolphin DX6, City Water, K-2006/TF-100, SpeedStir, SampleSizer, San Diego, CA

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    VinDeeLoo's Avatar
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    Re: How am I doing?

    Do you have your swg running during oclt?


    VinDeeLoo
    7600 gallons ~ AG ~ Summer Waves Cartridge C Filter ~ using pump that came with our Summer Waves 18 x 48 pool ~ Taylor K-2006 (SpeedStir & Sample Sizer) ~ no well water or water restrictions

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    Divin Dave's Avatar
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    Re: How am I doing?

    hopefully I can a bit of help with a couple of your questions. See my comments in red.

    Quote Originally Posted by xyz View Post
    Thanks! Very helpful. Very. I'm one of these people that struggles if I don't get the "why" part of it, so this really helps me. Dont worry, belive it or not, in no time you will be asking yourself why you ever thought it was hard to start with. We have all been there.
    Then I don't need to "trust" a salesman, it either makes sense or it doesn't. Salesman insurance so to speak.

    Not sure what I did wrong with the SLAM. I started with PH of ~7.3. I -think- you are saying don't bother to add the MA after you start, let the PH drift up each day? Yes. After you start the SLAM, dont test for PH until its over. (no reason to test anything else either. Just test before the slam and write it all down, then test only for FC during the slam. The reason why you dont test for pH after starting is because with FC above 10, teh pH test gives a false test result and is not accurate. Just keep adding chlorine, as it gets consumed by algae/sun? Yes, that's exactly right.

    Anyway, followed directions to the best of my understanding, help me figure out what I'm not getting right. I dont see anything you've done wrong. Don't sell yourself short, you seem to be doing a great job. Slamming just takes a little time, and the more you can test and keep the FC up, the quicker it will go.

    I am not sure what I did wrong with the test results. Let me assime it is formatting with dashes. I'll update in a minute. Maybe it is missing CC, I'll add that from memory for now.

    Ok, so I'm on board with raising CYA. I'll target the low end so I don't have to worry about going over, and so if I have to SLAM, I won't need to raise the levels excessively. Also, I'm probably not very good at executing the test yet, so this will leave me room for error. CYA is on the way!

    It looks to me like your getting the hang of it. You might expect a slight test error here and there until you get really used to doing it. Usually the testing error is because maybe the size of each drop is not exactly the same. Maybe the light isn't as good from test to test, things like that.

    Here is a hint for you on testing for CC. As soon as you finish the FC test, do the CC test immediately. If you let the FC test solution sit for more than about 30 seconds, the clear water in the test tube will start to turn pink. This confuses people and makes them question their testing skills. The water turns pink again because of outgassing of the water in the test tube.

    Just one more observation that we see on TFP, and we see this a LOT. People get tired of SLAMMING and it's human nature to want to hurry it along. Too often though when they think they are done, or trick outselves into believe we are when we really aren't. And guess what?

    The algae is back in a week and we loose hope in the method and the process and most of all, our own ability. Don't let that happen. When you think you're done, give it another day or 2 just to be sure that it's ALL gone. You've come way too far and done too much work not to see it through 100% to the end.
    Divin Dave,
    IG Vinyl, 15' x 30', 3 1/2' - 6' deep, Oval, ~15K gal, Intelliclor IC40, Intelliflo VS pump, Clean and Clear 420 Filter, auto-fill-disabled, Retrofit LED Color Light, Dolphin Nautilus Robot, TF100 Test Kit, Taylor K1766 Salt Test Kit, Tftestkit Pressure Gauge.
    www.tftestkits.net Experience- it's what's learned just after you needed it most !!

  8. Back To Top    #8

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    Re: How am I doing?

    You are safe to swim when you meet all three criteria
    ph between 7.2 - 7.8
    water is clear enough to see a swimmer on the bottom of the pool
    FC is between minimum and SLAM for your CYA level

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    Major_in_MS's Avatar
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    Re: How am I doing?

    Quote Originally Posted by VinDeeLoo View Post
    Do you have your swg running during oclt?

    +1

    (that's what I was thinking)
    24,200 gal., IG vinyl, 18' x 36' rectangular, average depth 5'. K-2006C
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    needsajet's Avatar
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    Re: How am I doing?

    You're doing great. No reason to believe you're not. The 3 SLAM criteria need to be met to consider a SLAM finished:

    1. CC of 0.5 or lower
    2. Water is clear
    3. Pass the OCLT: Pool School - Perform the Overnight FC Loss Test (OCLT)

    Provided your SWC was off for the OCLT, then all you need now is a positive CC result (0.5 or less CC) and your SLAM will be finished.
    12k IG salt; glass beads in plaster; K-2006C, K-1766, CCL, and Aussie 4in1 (HTH); Pentair Eco800 1.2HP VS; Zodiac SWC 1.3 lb/day (25 g/hr); 25" filter recycled glass; OKU solar panels; 1/2 HP solar pump; Rebel (Warrior) pool cleaner; FlowViz; prior pool AG 10k | Read Before Posting to get the best possible advice | ... and this helped me a lot!: TFPC for Beginners

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    Re: How am I doing?

    Wow! Awesome y'all!

    And Dave, thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

    Ok, so my SWG is on but set to 0%/0%. So no generation of chlorine.

    again, upped it to 23 last night and measured 24 this AM. My guess is, maybe I'm not waiting long enough for the chlorine to circulate completely; the other explanation is that I measure when it is pretty dark at nigh, but dawn ligh in the AM. So maybe it is my eyes or the different light.

    I seem to be consistently losing 3-4ppm per day, and gaining 1 at night for the past 3 days.

    So so tonight I will do the test indoors with uniform light, and I'll wait an hour with the pump maxed to make sure the chlorine has gotten mixed in. If I see the same measurement for a third night, I think I'm calling it done. If there is any question, I'll do one more day.

    Oh and CC is still zero, if I am measuring properly.


    A related question--is it better to try to kill mustard when the water is warm? Or cool?

    IOW, if this SLAM doesn't take, should I wait till December when the water is cooler?
    Jon -- 28kgal, IG, AquaBright, Attached Spa, ~1990, Quad DE 80, Easytouch8, IntelliFloVS-3050, Intellichlor60, IntelliPh, Dolphin DX6, City Water, K-2006/TF-100, SpeedStir, SampleSizer, San Diego, CA

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    Re: How am I doing?

    IOW, if this SLAM doesn't take, should I wait till December when the water is cooler?

    There is no such thing as a SLAM not taking. Chemistry is an exact scienc and the slam works. It will take if YOU finish it. I see sooo many people on TFP saying the slam didnt work wuen fact of the matter is, the slammer didnt work.They got complacent and lazy and doubtful.

    Sometimes it not easy to go the distance, but you're dong a great job! Go The Distance. FINISH IT!
    Divin Dave,
    IG Vinyl, 15' x 30', 3 1/2' - 6' deep, Oval, ~15K gal, Intelliclor IC40, Intelliflo VS pump, Clean and Clear 420 Filter, auto-fill-disabled, Retrofit LED Color Light, Dolphin Nautilus Robot, TF100 Test Kit, Taylor K1766 Salt Test Kit, Tftestkit Pressure Gauge.
    www.tftestkits.net Experience- it's what's learned just after you needed it most !!

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    Re: How am I doing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Divin Dave View Post
    IOW, if this SLAM doesn't take, should I wait till December when the water is cooler?

    There is no such thing as a SLAM not taking. Chemistry is an exact scienc and the slam works. It will take if YOU finish it. I see sooo many people on TFP saying the slam didnt work wuen fact of the matter is, the slammer didnt work.They got complacent and lazy and doubtful.

    Sometimes it not easy to go the distance, but you're dong a great job! Go The Distance. FINISH IT!

    WILCO.

    So today I lost 7 and I used my new Taylor magnetic stirrer to measure. I'll measure tonight, and if tomorrow I stil get zero CC, and no loss, I'm calling it. That will be 4 days of no overnight loss, zero CC, and it is crystal. Supposed to be a sunny day tomorrow, so I will see how much I lose. I'm surprised with this much loss during the day as compared to the night, but great learning, and this may be a good, hands on CYA lesson.

    Im going to guess that is because I'm low on CYA. More should arrive tomorrow. I'll have to read up on when to add that. I'll want to lose as much FC as I can quickly, so I -think- I want to add it once FC is down below 7 or so.


    Thanks for for the guidance Dave.
    Jon -- 28kgal, IG, AquaBright, Attached Spa, ~1990, Quad DE 80, Easytouch8, IntelliFloVS-3050, Intellichlor60, IntelliPh, Dolphin DX6, City Water, K-2006/TF-100, SpeedStir, SampleSizer, San Diego, CA

  14. Back To Top    #14

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    Re: How am I doing?

    Ok. No loss overnight, and CC still comes up clear.

    So im calling it!

    Pool looks outstanding. Bright sunny day today so I expect I'll be down to 16-18 by tonight, and 10 ish by tomorrow night.

    Just in in time for my new quad DE install. I'm hoping that goes well.
    Jon -- 28kgal, IG, AquaBright, Attached Spa, ~1990, Quad DE 80, Easytouch8, IntelliFloVS-3050, Intellichlor60, IntelliPh, Dolphin DX6, City Water, K-2006/TF-100, SpeedStir, SampleSizer, San Diego, CA

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    Re: How am I doing?

    Well done!! Great to end a SLAM successfully!
    12k IG salt; glass beads in plaster; K-2006C, K-1766, CCL, and Aussie 4in1 (HTH); Pentair Eco800 1.2HP VS; Zodiac SWC 1.3 lb/day (25 g/hr); 25" filter recycled glass; OKU solar panels; 1/2 HP solar pump; Rebel (Warrior) pool cleaner; FlowViz; prior pool AG 10k | Read Before Posting to get the best possible advice | ... and this helped me a lot!: TFPC for Beginners

  16. Back To Top    #16

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    Re: How am I doing?

    OP quote..."again, upped it to 23 last night and measured 24 this AM. My guess is, maybe I'm not waiting long enough for the chlorine to circulate completely; the other explanation is that I measure when it is pretty dark at nigh, but dawn ligh in the AM. So maybe it is my eyes or the different light. "

    There should never be anything about light or "eyes" on the FC test. It is an absolute. When the color changes...AND another drop causes NO FURTHER COLOR CHANGE, you are done. You do not count the last drop that didn't change the color.

    With the FC test, the test sample goes clear or not, there should be no question when you are done.

    There may be a +/- 1 tolerance that you are seeing, but not a doubt that you have tested correctly.
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  17. Back To Top    #17

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    Re: How am I doing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Griswald View Post
    OP quote..."again, upped it to 23 last night and measured 24 this AM. My guess is, maybe I'm not waiting long enough for the chlorine to circulate completely; the other explanation is that I measure when it is pretty dark at nigh, but dawn ligh in the AM. So maybe it is my eyes or the different light. "

    There should never be anything about light or "eyes" on the FC test. It is an absolute. When the color changes...AND another drop causes NO FURTHER COLOR CHANGE, you are done. You do not count the last drop that didn't change the color.

    With the FC test, the test sample goes clear or not, there should be no question when you are done.

    There may be a +/- 1 tolerance that you are seeing, but not a doubt that you have tested correctly.
    I'm with you there--there is no way for the chlorine to go up over night, so one of the two measurements must be wrong.

    So maybe I am not getting the 2 scoops accurately enough, or does this matter? it seems that you could get a 5% variation on the 2 scoops? Could this be it? I have had a question about the 2 scoops from the get go. Does not seem like a very accurate measure.

    The other explaination may be that I was not waiting long enough for the added chlorine to completely disperse. Basically, I'd get home, measure the day's loss, add chlorine to get back to the 22-24 mark, wait, measure, and that was it. I may not have waited long enough.

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    Re: How am I doing?

    That speedstir with the light will help with any future testing in low light.....and it's one heaping scoop, not 2. Great job btw! Got pics?
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  19. Back To Top    #19
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    Re: How am I doing?

    Quote Originally Posted by harleysilo View Post
    That speedstir with the light will help with any future testing in low light.....and it's one heaping scoop, not 2. Great job btw! Got pics?
    Harley,

    I don't mean to get off topic, but isn't it worse to have too little reagent than too much? In other words, I interpreted the Pool School to say you can get away with just using 1 heaping scoop to save reagent, but two scoops are fine. 2 scoops are also the directions that the Taylor Kit recommends. I have tested before using one scoop instead of two and have gotten an indication of different FC between the two. So I have err'd on the side of caution and always used two scoops. This is from the "Notes:" in Pool School state:

    The exact amount of R-0870 powder used is not critical. The goal is to add more than you really need rather than using too little. Using too little R-0870 powder can throw off the results of the test. You need to use enough to bind to all of the chlorine that is present. Adding extra, within reason, has no effect. At very high FC levels it is likely that you will need to use more than the normal amount.
    Just trying to clarify my understanding since I am fairly new to TFP. Sorry xyz, I hope I did not add any confusion.
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  20. Back To Top    #20
    VinDeeLoo's Avatar
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    Re: How am I doing?

    There is a difference in color. My husband does not see a light, light pink. It looks clear to him. He stops because their is no color change where I would add another drop.




    VinDeeLoo
    7600 gallons ~ AG ~ Summer Waves Cartridge C Filter ~ using pump that came with our Summer Waves 18 x 48 pool ~ Taylor K-2006 (SpeedStir & Sample Sizer) ~ no well water or water restrictions

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