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Thread: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

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    usnavystgc's Avatar
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    In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    Hello Everyone,
    I have a kidney shaped pool (about 10,000 gals) with 14 pop ups and 3 side jets (5 stations). The pop up heads in the shallow side work great but, the one station in the deep end seems to have a design flaw. For one, there are 4 heads in that station causing a large pressure requirement to get the heads to pop up all the way consistently. This particular station has only 1 low flow head (on a shallow step) and 3 high flow heads in the deepest part of the pool. My pump is nearly 20 yrs old (as is the pool) and I'm going to replace it soon. My plan is to buy a higher pressure pump.

    1) Will doing this have any adverse affect on the other stations?
    2) Will my plumbing be able to handle the higher pressure?
    3) Are higher pressure pumps available? Is this a good plan?
    4) Are there other options for me besides a robot?

    I like the in floor cleaners but I would like them better if I could get them all to work as they are designed.

    Additionally, I have air bubbles coming up thru the pop up heads. Is this always indicative of a suction side air leak?

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    1) Possibly. Since they will have higher pressure the flow rate will be higher as well and stronger.

    2) Yes. No problem.

    3) It depends on the pump you have now. What is the make & model?

    4) Personally, I would just retire the in-floor and use a robot. In-floors are power hogs and as you found out and as many others found out, they are less then perfect and some have found they need an additional cleaner anyway. Doesn't make sense to me.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    What brand floor cleaning system? Are you considerig a VS pump?

    I was considering going to a seperate robot system, but when I added a new Pentair Inteliflow pump and changed out some of my heads for a new design venturi type, I saw a dramatic improvement in the function of the system. I now have the pump programmed to run a cleaning cycle each morning, and it seems to do the job.
    chiefwej
    Tucson, AZ
    16x36 rectangular (19k) Pebble Tec play pool/spa, Pentair Intelliflo VS 011018, Super II 2hp (spa), Aqua Rite T-15 SWG, Pro Grid 60 DE, Hayward H400 & Heliocol Solar heating, A&A infloor system, fill water w/high CH and TA, 50 ppm borates,TF-100 test kit

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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    Thanks for the quick responses.

    Not sure of the make and model of pump (AZ sun wore label away) but 1.5hp is stamped on it and as I stated it is about 20 yrs old (so I'm guessing its lost some flow rate/pressure). The in floor cleaning system is A&A.

    Chiefwej,
    Can you send me the info on the venturi heads?

    Does anyone have an answer to my last question about the air bubbles?
    Phil In Tucson
    20 year old 10,000 gal kidney shaped pool, Concrete w/ Aggregate quartz floor, Sta-Rite System 3 DE Filter, In floor pop up cleaners, auto fill

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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    Air bubbles - Yes, most likely a suction side air leak. Pool School - Suction Side Air Leaks

    You say the pump is 20 years old. Are you the original owner of the pool? If so, your A&A infloor is still under warranty. You may wish to give them a call (they're in Phoenix) and ask them for any suggestions - whether your in warranty or not. Also, when is the last time the infloor heads, diverter valve gearset or the actuator valves (balls) were replaced? These items do wear out, which allows water to bypass the infloor head nozzle and/or the intended zone in the diverter valve.

    What are these "side jets" you mentioned? Are they tied into the zones of the infloor or are they controlled separately?

    My almost 17 year old pool has one zone with 3 high flow and 1 low flow - but that zone takes care of the steps and Baja shelf without issue. Originally, I had a 2HP Hayward Super Pump and the infloor worked great. I replaced that motor/pump with a Hayward Ecostar a few years back. With the Ecostar, I've been able to reduce the motor RPM to 2800 (from 3450) - which saves electricity - without affecting the cleaning performance.
    Gene
    ​12,300 gal IG play pool - Pebbletec - built 10/1999 || Hayward S360SX 36" sand filter || Hayward Ecostar SP3400 VSP || A&A In-Floor cleaning system || Quik Water Leveler || Quik Dek-clor (limited use)
    TF-100 testkit / Speedstir - A good test kit is not an expense, it's an investment

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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    Quote Originally Posted by usnavystgc View Post
    Not sure of the make and model of pump (AZ sun wore label away) but 1.5hp is stamped on it and as I stated it is about 20 yrs old (so I'm guessing its lost some flow rate/pressure).
    Pumps don't generally lose a lot flow rate or pressure unless the impeller was broken but then you would know it because the pump would shortly fall apart.

    Can you take a picture of the entire pump and just the motor label? I can probably figure it out from that.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    Proavia,
    Thanks for the link to Pool School.

    I'm not the original owner. The diverter valve gearset has recently been changed (within the last year), the actuator valves were not replaced because they were in great condition. Many of the in-floor heads have been changed within the last year (all the heads in question have been replaced).

    The side jets are on the side of the pool at strategic locations and serve to push floating debris to the skimmer. They are tied into zone 5 of the infloor system.

    - - - Updated - - -

    mas986. I can do that. I will post that later.
    Phil In Tucson
    20 year old 10,000 gal kidney shaped pool, Concrete w/ Aggregate quartz floor, Sta-Rite System 3 DE Filter, In floor pop up cleaners, auto fill

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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    My in floor system is also A&A, and being the original owner it is under a lifetime warranty (not transferable). I called them and they sent a tech out to evaluate my system. He replaced the gear pack and some of the heads with the new design, and helped me setup my pump program for cleaning the pool. The new heads would have been very expensive if I had to pay for them ( I think they run about $79 each), but everything was covered under my warranty.

    G4 - Venturi Powered - Cleaning Heads | A and A Manufacturing | Pool Cleaning Products
    chiefwej
    Tucson, AZ
    16x36 rectangular (19k) Pebble Tec play pool/spa, Pentair Intelliflo VS 011018, Super II 2hp (spa), Aqua Rite T-15 SWG, Pro Grid 60 DE, Hayward H400 & Heliocol Solar heating, A&A infloor system, fill water w/high CH and TA, 50 ppm borates,TF-100 test kit

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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    I'd still consider giving A&A a call. Maybe they can look up your build be address or the original owners name - and give you some specifics on the original install which may help to see if the system has been "tweaked" since original install.

    The G4 heads chiefwej linked to might help that zone work better - but they are expensive. You could just replace the 3 high pressure heads (use the present ones in other locations as needed) - or you may decide that in the long term it's better to put that money towards a good robot and only use the infloor (if/as needed) when the robot is out of the water.
    Gene
    ​12,300 gal IG play pool - Pebbletec - built 10/1999 || Hayward S360SX 36" sand filter || Hayward Ecostar SP3400 VSP || A&A In-Floor cleaning system || Quik Water Leveler || Quik Dek-clor (limited use)
    TF-100 testkit / Speedstir - A good test kit is not an expense, it's an investment

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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    The new heads are expensive, but check around. I saw at least one source on eBay for $49 each. If you only need two or three, that's not so bad.
    chiefwej
    Tucson, AZ
    16x36 rectangular (19k) Pebble Tec play pool/spa, Pentair Intelliflo VS 011018, Super II 2hp (spa), Aqua Rite T-15 SWG, Pro Grid 60 DE, Hayward H400 & Heliocol Solar heating, A&A infloor system, fill water w/high CH and TA, 50 ppm borates,TF-100 test kit

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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    Phil In Tucson
    20 year old 10,000 gal kidney shaped pool, Concrete w/ Aggregate quartz floor, Sta-Rite System 3 DE Filter, In floor pop up cleaners, auto fill

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    From the side, does the pump look like this one:

    http://www.pentairpool.com/products/...a-pumps-96.htm


    That is a fairly high head pump and the Intelliflo may get you a little bit more pressure and flow but not much.

    What is the filter pressure when the in-floor is running?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    That def looks like the pump.

    The pressure varies between 23 with a fresh clean filter and 29 dirty filter.

    By high head pump, do you mean high pressure?
    Phil In Tucson
    20 year old 10,000 gal kidney shaped pool, Concrete w/ Aggregate quartz floor, Sta-Rite System 3 DE Filter, In floor pop up cleaners, auto fill

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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    Yes, high head is high pressure. But at 29 PSI, that pump's flow rate will decrease to about 67 GPM. The Intelliflo would deliver about 73 GPM. Not much more. Do you notice a big difference in cleaner effectiveness at 23 vs 29 PSI?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    You know, I never paid attention to that. Right now I have a dirty filter and I plan to clean it this weekend. I will have to check it again after I clean the filter.
    Phil In Tucson
    20 year old 10,000 gal kidney shaped pool, Concrete w/ Aggregate quartz floor, Sta-Rite System 3 DE Filter, In floor pop up cleaners, auto fill

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    usnavystgc's Avatar
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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    Pool Pic2.jpg
    Good news on the home front. I cleaned the filter, added new DE and let it run. The pressure went down to 23 and the flow rate increased notably. All of the in floor cleaners are working well and the pool is sparkling clean. Thanks for all your help.
    Phil In Tucson
    20 year old 10,000 gal kidney shaped pool, Concrete w/ Aggregate quartz floor, Sta-Rite System 3 DE Filter, In floor pop up cleaners, auto fill

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    I'm glad you got it working. Unfortunately, that probably means you will need to clean the filter a bit sooner than you have been.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    Glad that here cleaning the filter improved the flow and infloor cleaning. As Mark said, you'll probably have to clean the filter a bit more frequently.

    It still may be worth your time to call A&A and see if they have any suggestions - especially for that one "weak" zone.
    Gene
    ​12,300 gal IG play pool - Pebbletec - built 10/1999 || Hayward S360SX 36" sand filter || Hayward Ecostar SP3400 VSP || A&A In-Floor cleaning system || Quik Water Leveler || Quik Dek-clor (limited use)
    TF-100 testkit / Speedstir - A good test kit is not an expense, it's an investment

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    usnavystgc's Avatar
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    Re: In Floor Cleaners and Pressure Question

    I think you guys are right. I think I'll have to get up off my lazy butt and clean the filter more often.
    Phil In Tucson
    20 year old 10,000 gal kidney shaped pool, Concrete w/ Aggregate quartz floor, Sta-Rite System 3 DE Filter, In floor pop up cleaners, auto fill

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