Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Bonding the pump to the pool

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Monterrey, Mexico
    Posts
    34

    Bonding the pump to the pool

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion View Post
    Grounding and bonding are not the same thing, although they are related. Grounding means connecting things to ground through a single grounding point in the area of the main panel. Bonding means connecting everything together, without regard for the ground.

    The bonding system should not be connected directly to ground, though there may very well be an indirect connection through the pump or a lighting circuit. Driving a grounding spike is not recommended in the US, though some other countries recommend it.

    There should be two different connections on the pump. One by the motor next to the AC input that gets connected to ground and another on the pump housing that gets connected to the bonding system.
    If the pump doesn't have two connections what would be correct, to bond in the same lug as the ground or create a bonding point thru a housing screw?
    11'x21'x4.4'
    7.0K IG Concrete pool
    Hayward Swimpro 19" Sand Filter
    1HP pump
    Pentair Intellibrite 5G 500W equivalent white light

  2. Back To Top    #2
    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    DFW, TX
    Posts
    23,994

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    No, bonding and grounding are not the same thing, there should be a bonding lug on the outside of the pump and a ground connection near the connection for the 110v connections.

    More here, Pool School - Bonding vs Grounding
    TFP Moderator
    If TFP helped you or saved you money - Become a TFP Supporter! <--Click here
    2012 build and pics, 20k gal gunite, black onyx pebblesheen, OK flagstone, IntellifoVS, cart filter w/Pleatco, IC40 SWG, Solartouch, 5 12'x4' solar panels, HP50HA heat pump, 8mil solar cover, borates, TF-100 test kit, SONOS, Doheny's Discovery Robot, hot tub on bleach

  3. Back To Top    #3

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    2,769

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    Please post a picture or the brand and model number of your pump. The lug may have fallen or been left off.
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Monterrey, Mexico
    Posts
    34

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    My pump is a pool pump made in Mexico, made by SIEMENS

    Here is a picture of it and the connections

    IMPORTANT. The bronze bonding connection bottom left was put by me.

    The grounding screw is attached to the pump housing. Attachment 54101

    The pumpis still not connected.

    Whats your opinion of my homemade bonding lug ?
    11'x21'x4.4'
    7.0K IG Concrete pool
    Hayward Swimpro 19" Sand Filter
    1HP pump
    Pentair Intellibrite 5G 500W equivalent white light

  5. Back To Top    #5

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    2,769

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    That probably works ok.

    I'd still like to know the brand and model of the pump.
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

  6. Back To Top    #6
    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    8,494

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    We all need to understand that the OP and pump are in Mexico, thus there may be no local requirement for bonding, thus pumps sold into that market may not have them.

    I agree that the added bonding lug ios probably sufficient.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

  7. Back To Top    #7

    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Monterrey, Mexico
    Posts
    34

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    THANKS GUYS!

    I've read a lot about bonding from this forum and many other sources that I now consider myself a MASTER BONDER, LOL.

    Apparently everything I've done is now enough to consider my pool bonded. I even left a 8AWG cable connected to a rebar and hidden underground insulated just if it is needed in the future for outside pool lights.

    My bonding is as follows:

    Rebar to Niche to 12V transformer to breaker box to pump

    I'll post pictures later.

    Thanks again for the help
    11'x21'x4.4'
    7.0K IG Concrete pool
    Hayward Swimpro 19" Sand Filter
    1HP pump
    Pentair Intellibrite 5G 500W equivalent white light

  8. Back To Top    #8
    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    8,494

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    I could be wrong, but I don't think the breaker box is included in items needing bonding. Is would tie your bond and grounds together which I do not believe you want.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

  9. Back To Top    #9

    In the Industry
    Pool Clown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Posts
    1,636

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    I would strongly recommend running conduit, either flex, or rigid directly to the motor to protect the wires and to help seal the motor at the point where the wires enter the motor. Also, i would use ANY color but green for the line voltage. Green is usually reserved for the ground.

    You can see with your hook up how this can be problematic, especially if you were to add a (green) ground wire.
    Factory Warranty Station for:
    Jandy/Zodiac, Pentair, Sta-Rite, Raypak, Polaris,
    and Paramount pool cleaning systems.

  10. Back To Top    #10
    banditig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    464

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    I would also use crimp terminals on the twisted wire ends.
    15x54 swim & play vinyl metal wall AG
    Hayward S210T sand filter 1.5 HP Pentair Superflo vs
    Rheem raypak 130,000 BTU mv ng
    Jacuzzi 345 whirlpool bath
    TF-100 test kit, HM digital com100 Wanda the Whale

  11. Back To Top    #11

    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Monterrey, Mexico
    Posts
    34

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    Bonding and grounding the pump both are attached to pump's carcass ( see the pic or check your pump.)

    Being the breaker box of metal I'd believe the need for bonding.

    Please, someone with more knowledge share some of us with us

    thanks guys
    11'x21'x4.4'
    7.0K IG Concrete pool
    Hayward Swimpro 19" Sand Filter
    1HP pump
    Pentair Intellibrite 5G 500W equivalent white light

  12. Back To Top    #12

    TFP Guide

    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    western NY
    Posts
    1,557

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    Where is the breaker box located in relation to the pool?
    Unknown make 18' above ground (bought used in 1999) Sparco sand filter. Hayward 100,000 BTu heater. 2 speed pump

  13. Back To Top    #13

    In the Industry
    Pool Clown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Posts
    1,636

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    Quote Originally Posted by PuroMexicano View Post
    Bonding and grounding the pump both are attached to pump's carcass ( see the pic or check your pump.) Being the breaker box of metal I'd believe the need for bonding.
    Thats why you would also want to run a ground wire from the panel to the motor, to include the panel in the bonding. That wire actually serves two purposes, to ground the motor (via the panel) and to bond the panel (via the motor). Or you could just run a dedicated bond to the panel if you wanted with another flag like you did with the motor, but for someone that may be inspecting it, he would like, or rather demand, that you do both before approving.

    Please, someone with more knowledge share some of us with us

    thanks guys
    Think of it as creating a pathway with better continuity to ground than your body! Or a better "path of least resistance", so the current chooses it, instead of you, in the event of a problem.

    The idea of "bonding" is simple. EVERYTHING metal to be common in the system. This would include, but not be limited to, the steel in the deck, and in the structure of the pool, metal eyeball fittings, motors, metal (copper) plumbing, lights, handrails, ladders, bird baths, fire bowls, right down to the small brass spill edge in your spa or water feature(s). Anything conductive/metal within a determined distance (local codes) from the water, or a determined distance from the perimeter of the project will be common.

    Most codes are there for your safety. If you are not having this inspected, or there just isn't a building department or codes where you are, then it falls on you to make everything safe!

    I'm assuming that's why you are here. I'm glad you took the time to you investigate it.

    No one has as much to loose in your back yard as you do.
    Factory Warranty Station for:
    Jandy/Zodiac, Pentair, Sta-Rite, Raypak, Polaris,
    and Paramount pool cleaning systems.

  14. Back To Top    #14

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    2,769

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    The NEC does not apply here and I have no idea of what Mexican electrical codes require. Now I have said that. What follows is the NEC and my interpretation of it.

    Your ground wire is an equipment grounding conductor. It is primarily designed to return faulted current to the source by the least restive means so the over-current protection device will quickly trip and render the situation safe. Around a pool equipment grounding conductors are required to be insulated wire, in other applications they can be constructed differently.

    A bonding system is designed to create a area where all potential conductors have the same electrical potential. If they have the same electrical potential then human beings cannot act as conductors for a current attempting to equalize potential between conductors with different potentials. To accomplish that the code requires pumps to be bonded. This often has the effect of connecting the bonding system to the equipment grounding conductor. While that is something you would like to avoid its often required. In theory (and almost universally in practice) the equipment grounding conductor has lower resistance than the bonded pump case and all current will flow to the common buss bar in the main panel.

    So is there a problem here? Well yes from one view. But the code's drafters have long felt that this was minor and that it was much more important to have a bonded pool pump.
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

  15. Back To Top    #15
    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    8,494

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    Quote Originally Posted by gwegan View Post
    So is there a problem here? Well yes from one view. But the code's drafters have long felt that this was minor and that it was much more important to have a bonded pool pump.
    So, I'm guessing the sames hold true for bonding the sub-panel?
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

  16. Back To Top    #16

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    2,769

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    So, I'm guessing the sames hold true for bonding the sub-panel?
    Bonding the sub-panel is an interesting question. At first blush one would think sure bond the sub-panel its part of the pool electrical so it should be bonded.

    The NEC is far from clear on the subject:

    NEC 680.26(B): " Connections to bonded parts . . . shall not be required to be extended or attached to remote panelboards, service equipment or electrodes."

    What does that mean? What is a "remote panelboard" ?

    Well the simple answer is it means what your inspector says it means. To me its clear only that the remote main panel does not have to be bonded nor do grounding electrodes, the service entrance or other things like the power company transformer.

    I think it means that subpanels inside 5 feet from the water must be bonded and outside are not required. But that's me and the code really does not support that interpretation. It could mean that panelboards remote from the bonded pool equipment are exempt and panelboards on the pad must be bonded. That is actually a better interpretation of the NEC680.26(B) (1) to (7). Its a better interpretation because the Code requires metal conduit to be bonded, NEC680.26(B) (7), and electrical equipment, NEC680.26(B) (6), associated with the water circulating system of the pool to be bonded. So shouldn't a pool panelboard be bonded?

    So I really am not sure, but my strict interpretation of the code says to bond subpanels, but I'm not sure if I'd do it myself.
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

  17. Back To Top    #17
    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    8,494

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    Thanks. As always, code are a clear as mud......
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Monterrey, Mexico
    Posts
    34

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    Quote Originally Posted by danpik View Post
    Where is the breaker box located in relation to the pool?
    All equipment is installed 20 ft away from the pool in a cinder block machine room.

    Please see attached picture of the electrical installation. Left to right is the pool light transformer, breaker box, timer. Underneath is the pool pump.

    If you look closely, the transformer has a bonding lug similar to the one I installed in the pool pump, both will be bonded together and also with the panel if decided to do so.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pool Clown View Post
    Thats why you would also want to run a ground wire from the panel to the motor, to include the panel in the bonding. That wire actually serves two purposes, to ground the motor (via the panel) and to bond the panel (via the motor). Or you could just run a dedicated bond to the panel if you wanted with another flag like you did with the motor, but for someone that may be inspecting it, he would like, or rather demand, that you do both before approving.



    Think of it as creating a pathway with better continuity to ground than your body! Or a better "path of least resistance", so the current chooses it, instead of you, in the event of a problem.

    The idea of "bonding" is simple. EVERYTHING metal to be common in the system. This would include, but not be limited to, the steel in the deck, and in the structure of the pool, metal eyeball fittings, motors, metal (copper) plumbing, lights, handrails, ladders, bird baths, fire bowls, right down to the small brass spill edge in your spa or water feature(s). Anything conductive/metal within a determined distance (local codes) from the water, or a determined distance from the perimeter of the project will be common.

    Most codes are there for your safety. If you are not having this inspected, or there just isn't a building department or codes where you are, then it falls on you to make everything safe!

    I'm assuming that's why you are here. I'm glad you took the time to you investigate it.

    No one has as much to loose in your back yard as you do.

    A ground wire will be installed from the pool pump and the light to the breaker box and then to a physical carbon ground



    Quote Originally Posted by gwegan View Post
    The NEC does not apply here and I have no idea of what Mexican electrical codes require. Now I have said that. What follows is the NEC and my interpretation of it.

    Your ground wire is an equipment grounding conductor. It is primarily designed to return faulted current to the source by the least restive means so the over-current protection device will quickly trip and render the situation safe. Around a pool equipment grounding conductors are required to be insulated wire, in other applications they can be constructed differently.

    A bonding system is designed to create a area where all potential conductors have the same electrical potential. If they have the same electrical potential then human beings cannot act as conductors for a current attempting to equalize potential between conductors with different potentials. To accomplish that the code requires pumps to be bonded. This often has the effect of connecting the bonding system to the equipment grounding conductor. While that is something you would like to avoid its often required. In theory (and almost universally in practice) the equipment grounding conductor has lower resistance than the bonded pump case and all current will flow to the common buss bar in the main panel.

    So is there a problem here? Well yes from one view. But the code's drafters have long felt that this was minor and that it was much more important to have a bonded pool pump.
    Indeed, thanks for the input



    Quote Originally Posted by gwegan View Post
    Bonding the sub-panel is an interesting question. At first blush one would think sure bond the sub-panel its part of the pool electrical so it should be bonded.

    The NEC is far from clear on the subject:

    NEC 680.26(B): " Connections to bonded parts . . . shall not be required to be extended or attached to remote panelboards, service equipment or electrodes."

    What does that mean? What is a "remote panelboard" ?

    Well the simple answer is it means what your inspector says it means. To me its clear only that the remote main panel does not have to be bonded nor do grounding electrodes, the service entrance or other things like the power company transformer.

    I think it means that subpanels inside 5 feet from the water must be bonded and outside are not required. But that's me and the code really does not support that interpretation. It could mean that panelboards remote from the bonded pool equipment are exempt and panelboards on the pad must be bonded. That is actually a better interpretation of the NEC680.26(B) (1) to (7). Its a better interpretation because the Code requires metal conduit to be bonded, NEC680.26(B) (7), and electrical equipment, NEC680.26(B) (6), associated with the water circulating system of the pool to be bonded. So shouldn't a pool panelboard be bonded?

    So I really am not sure, but my strict interpretation of the code says to bond subpanels, but I'm not sure if I'd do it myself.

    That's why I'm uncertain too about bonding



    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    Thanks. As always, code are a clear as mud......
    LOL





    Yesterday I read a Bulletin from Ontario Electrical Safety Code 2013
    https://www.esasafe.com/assets/files/esasafe/pdf/Sample_Bulletins/68-7-9.pdf

    Please read question 6 and 9

    My interpretation of question 6 is that pool equipment in an enclosed separate room or 9 ft away from the pool does not need to be bonded. (My case is this one, although I'm bonding the equipment)

    My interpretation of question 9 is that the panel board (I assume is the breaker box) doesn't need to be grounded

    What's your interpretation?



    I'm loving this discussion!

    Attachment 54319
    11'x21'x4.4'
    7.0K IG Concrete pool
    Hayward Swimpro 19" Sand Filter
    1HP pump
    Pentair Intellibrite 5G 500W equivalent white light

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    2,769

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    I'm going to say it again. I can generally only comment on the NEC. Occasionally I comment on different versions of Canadian codes. So I can tell you what the NEC generally says. Now you are bringing in a Canadian example.

    In question 6 the Bulletin is opining that because this is a retrofit certain work required by the Ontario code for new installations is not required per the code itself. In the USA this is generally an issue for negotiation between the inspector and the contractor or architect. I have no idea of the rule in Monterrey Mexico.

    In question 9 the Bulletin is giving a direction of how to interpret the Ontario code regarding panelboard bonding. They conclude not to bond. Again the rule under the NEC is not clear and I have no idea of the rule in Monterrey Mexico. You would do a lot better talking to a building inspector or a local electrician with high end (like hotel swimming pool ) experience.


    Lets not get too enmeshed in the technical details of the code. With bonding you are trying to create a system that will protect occupants in the pool and not create other problems. With that in mind, more than 90% of all bonding issues on this board are water to deck problems. In other words the water and the deck are not bonded together.. In my experience, bonding the water and the deck is the most critical bond. And an in pool water bond is best. I'm not saying don't do the rest, I'm just saying on a retrofit you will get the most safety improvement by making sure there is a good bonding system between the deck and the water.
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

  20. Back To Top    #20

    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Monterrey, Mexico
    Posts
    34

    Re: Bonding the pump to the pool

    Thanks

    my deck and water are bonded thru the niche that is attached with 8awg cable to the rebar that extends to the deck

    I guess I feel confident of how my pool is bonded overall

    thank you all
    11'x21'x4.4'
    7.0K IG Concrete pool
    Hayward Swimpro 19" Sand Filter
    1HP pump
    Pentair Intellibrite 5G 500W equivalent white light

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •