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Thread: TFP Methods

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    TFP Methods

    Quote Originally Posted by kim9231598 View Post
    The reason I do not post is you people scare the heck out of me. I can see that you have made up your mind about this product. That is fine, I still appreciate the information that I read on your site.
    Quote Originally Posted by perry32 View Post
    I will also say I would be hesitant to share any data with this group...
    I believe the TFP group could benefit from some additional patience and understanding. There's a national, if not international culture of pool care that's contrary to many TFP principals. It's natural for people to question or even debate ideas that are so different from what they've experienced. That doesn't necessarily mean they have an agenda or are unwilling to change their mind. I've seen several instances of mods & members giving up very quickly and deciding that a new or challenging poster can't be convinced. Maybe I'm just more stubborn than most. Certainly trolls exists and we should all keep our interwebs guard up, but sometimes the benefit of doubt pays off.

    I'd like to see EVERY person who finds this site to "see the light" and stay here, post here, learn and have a trouble free pool - no matter how hard-sold they've been by pool $tores or how long they've been using contrary methods.
    12,000 gal Diamond Brite indoor​ pool. Pentair Triton TR-60 Sand Filter +added DE, Lochinvar Energyrite ERN-200 gas heater, Pentair Multi-valve, Pentair SuperFlo VS pump, TF-100 kit, Pool Math App - iOS

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    Re: Thoughts on bio-active cya reducer

    Is there a statement of moderation principles somewhere?

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: TFP Methods

    These two posts took an existing thread about CYA reduction in a new direction so I split it off here.

    These two,posts have similar, but slightly different questions and I will attempt to answer them. I don't own the place, so what I say is my opinion.

    Contrary to what many believe, TFP does not exist to discuss ALL methods of pool care, but a singular method that has come to be known as Trouble Free Pool care. It involves accurate self testing of your pool water and only adding what the pool needs. We want pool owners to understand that "traditional" methods of pool care as taught by many pool stores are often adding things to your pool that you really don't need. From CYA in stabilized pool products to the metals in the "lower chlorine" methods we feel you don't want or need them.

    We are not here to discuss other methods like natural pool care and other methods like Baqua or Bromine are discussed, but we try to explain that TFP methods are easier and less expensive.

    So, how do we moderate? First and foremost we look to the forum rules posted above. Violation of,one of these rules will generally cause a moderator to take immediate action like splitting posts off of a thread when it is a hijack or even deleting things that are against the rules. I would say the most common moderator action here at TFP is splitting hijacks.

    As to other actions we use common sense. A few times a year someone shows up with the "chlorine is poison" point of view. These types posts are moved to our forum "Agree to Disagree". As long a folks remain civil we let folks talk away to their hears content. But, what generally happens is that this new member gets frustrated that they can't convince all,of us that we should stop using chlorine and begin actin less than civil. At that point the thread is usually deleted. Some forums just lock them, but leaving it up just gives that poster a perminate record of their thought to link to. We don't need to support someone else's soapbox.

    I guess it just comes down to the fact that as one person said in frustration because we didn't agree to give up chlorine that TFP is nothin but a chlorine forum. In a way, I guess we are.........
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: TFP Methods

    Makes sense, but it may bring more attention to my opinion than I was prepared for!
    12,000 gal Diamond Brite indoor​ pool. Pentair Triton TR-60 Sand Filter +added DE, Lochinvar Energyrite ERN-200 gas heater, Pentair Multi-valve, Pentair SuperFlo VS pump, TF-100 kit, Pool Math App - iOS

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    Re: TFP Methods

    I entirely agree that it's ok for TFP to be "singularly focused" / "chlorine only" and even close-minded about entertaining other methods. TFP is about TFP! I've seen poison threads. They were annoying and deserved to be locked and/or deleted.

    I tried to choose my words carefully when I said "additional patience and understanding".

    The "never run my pump" thread strikes me as a good example. The poster admitted to being a novice. He posed a question about his experience and made the mistake of standing his ground slightly too long and the thread was locked. I didn't think the conversation had reached a natural end. Like you Tim, I'm just expressing my opinion, but one of my fears is that a lack of patience for people struggling to accept change can be mistaken for insecurity that the TFP method can't withstanding scrutiny.

    This is all new to me, but I've done a LOT of reading (including what I might call "science deniers" out there that claim exactly my fears above about TFP). I'm convinced that it's Pool $tores that don't stand up to scrutiny, but that's clearly a minority opinion in the public, and I firmly believe that needs to change.
    12,000 gal Diamond Brite indoor​ pool. Pentair Triton TR-60 Sand Filter +added DE, Lochinvar Energyrite ERN-200 gas heater, Pentair Multi-valve, Pentair SuperFlo VS pump, TF-100 kit, Pool Math App - iOS

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    Re: TFP Methods

    Once you figure out the CYA/FC ratio the light bulb comes on
    Inground 22k gallon gunite 15x31 main pool, 15x7 wading pool/sunning deck, hot tub/with overflow (9' octagon with limestone top) & slide NSWG, Aqua Blue Pebble Sheen
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    Re: TFP Methods

    As Tim5055 said, this is my personal opinion -

    Most of the folks that find TFP and put up a post have a legitimate question or are confused BUT are willing to listen and learn. Those are the posts that are fun to be in and give most of the mods, admins, guides, experts, etc, joy.

    Then there are those people who come to this forum with a question or thought but are unwilling to learn. They receive the expert advice of the people that dedicate countless hours to this forum (with no compensation whatsoever other than personal satisfaction), advice that has been honed and refined form years (almost a decade now) of experience and millions of posts, and they reject the advice given simply because it doesn't conform to their preconceived notion. Then, when they aren't told what they want to hear (mostly in order to prove that their previous poor judgement was justified), they become mad or impatient or needlessly pedantic while focusing on the finest bit of minutiae as evidence that the forum is entirely wrong. Those threads are the ones that end with -

    You've been given great advice from multiple experts on this forum and yet you continue to not listen and argue. This thread is closed until such time comes when you are willing to listen and learn.
    And, the above admonition is completely justified. Why? Because, once again, the guides, admins, experts & mods have hundreds of posts that need to be answered every single day and we do not have time to deal with adults that prefer to act like kindergarten children. At some point, you have to stop the incessant arguing. As I said to someone once, if you're a vegan you really shouldn't be trying to push your opinions on a forum dedicated to smoked meats and BBQ!

    Finally, there are outright trolls, hackers who like to cause mischief and people "in the industry" with an agenda or product to push that hide behind legitimately created user accounts. They are a small fraction of the thousands of new users TFP signs up every season and, very often, they are spotted and banned before any of the regular members ever see their posts.

    I'm truly sorry if we can't coddle everyone that comes here. I try to be as patient as I can but I fail more times than I prefer to admit. But I, like others that put in countless hours here, get a certain amount of satisfaction helping those in need. So here's what I would suggest to those that post - try to dial back the outrageously outrageous outrage you feel when you read a response. Don't always assume something was written with malice or contempt. Give the people posting replies to your queries the benefit of the doubt and assume they mean you no harm. Some people write well and express lots of encouragement when they write; others of us suck at expressive writing....not everyone is Walt Whitman. If you are truly confused by someone's intentions or attitude, private message (PM) them. Like talking to someone face-to-face rather than over the phone, it can clear up a world of confusion.
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: TFP Methods

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollercoastr View Post
    .... but one of my fears is that a lack of patience for people struggling to accept change can be mistaken for insecurity that the TFP method can't withstanding scrutiny....
    I think what you have to realize is that you have it backwards - TFP does not have to prove anything. All one has to do is read through the countless number of Green Swamp threads that the TFP has cleared up when the OP was abandoned by the so-called pool store "experts" and service companies. We get countless threads each year where people were told their pools were hopeless and they should just drain them. The people come here, follow the methods outlined in Pool School, and their pools go from green/black/nasty to clean/clear/swimmable. TFP has proven itself time and again for the better part of a decade.

    So, the default position of the TFP is this - if a poster plans on making an assertion that is counter to what we teach, then it is not up to TFP to prove them wrong (basic logic dictates that you can not prove a negative). It is up to the person making the assertions to prove that they are correct. And, 99% of the time when they can't and when the experts/mods/guides refute their arguments, they simply become trolls and get banned and very often their posts get deleted.
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: TFP Methods

    So, I mentioned that I'm stubborn...

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    ...TFP does not have to prove anything.

    From the standpoint that TFP is a not-for-profit volunteer-powered organization, your statement is entirely true. But the whole point is to educate people and help them help themselves. Very often that requires persistence, and IMO, that's TFP's lowest score.
    12,000 gal Diamond Brite indoor​ pool. Pentair Triton TR-60 Sand Filter +added DE, Lochinvar Energyrite ERN-200 gas heater, Pentair Multi-valve, Pentair SuperFlo VS pump, TF-100 kit, Pool Math App - iOS

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    Re: TFP Methods

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollercoastr View Post
    I believe the TFP group could benefit from some additional patience and understanding. There's a national, if not international culture of pool care that's contrary to many TFP principals. ... I'd like to see EVERY person who finds this site to "see the light" and stay here, post here, learn and have a trouble free pool - no matter how hard-sold they've been by pool $tores or how long they've been using contrary methods.
    I can understand your point here, but as one of those that has been down this road with new users time and time again, after a certain point one has to decide to help the ones that want our help. It is a simple choice of helping 10 people that are in need and want our help, vs spending hours trying to convince someone that up is up..... Now if you want to jump in and try to help convert these people, you are more than welcome to join the effort.
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
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    Re: TFP Methods

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollercoastr View Post
    So, I mentioned that I'm stubborn...




    From the standpoint that TFP is a not-for-profit volunteer-powered organization, your statement is entirely true. But the whole point is to educate people and help them help themselves. Very often that requires persistence, and IMO, that's TFP's lowest score.
    Sometimes to the contrary, we get complaints from some new folks who haven't fully embraced TFP methods that "we" are too heavy handed. Too preachy. Too convinced of our own knowledge and methods. More often, I think we try (despite our enthusiasm) to err on the side of presenting the basics, gauging response then hoping a user takes initiative to read through our methods, give it an earnest and complete try on their own with guidance. After all, it's up to them how they choose to care for their pool. There's really no place to go with a thread where a user refuses to attempt the required minimum for TFP methods. We can't give them proper advice, we can't trust their results, they aren't proceeding as recommended so how can further advice be given? There's no path that leads from step A to Z without B, C, D...
    Joel - TFP Moderator - Minnesota - **Become a TFP Supporter!** Helpful Links: ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry - SLAM Procedure - Chlorine/CYA Chart
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    Re: TFP Methods

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac-1 View Post
    I can understand your point here, but as one of those that has been down this road with new users time and time again, after a certain point one has to decide to help the ones that want our help. It is a simple choice of helping 10 people that are in need and want our help, vs spending hours trying to convince someone that up is up..... Now if you want to jump in and try to help convert these people, you are more than welcome to join the effort.
    I wondered if/when I'd be volunteered for that role! I'm in an awkward position now - way too new to offer much advice, but also new enough that i haven't been worn down or jaded by resistors. With any luck, I'll soon find myself in the sweetspot where I can make a difference.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JVTrain View Post
    Sometimes to the contrary, we get complaints from some new folks who haven't fully embraced TFP methods that "we" are too heavy handed. Too preachy. Too convinced of our own knowledge and methods.
    I get that. I was lucky. I found TFP and received my TF-100 before I even got keys to the house.
    12,000 gal Diamond Brite indoor​ pool. Pentair Triton TR-60 Sand Filter +added DE, Lochinvar Energyrite ERN-200 gas heater, Pentair Multi-valve, Pentair SuperFlo VS pump, TF-100 kit, Pool Math App - iOS

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    Re: TFP Methods

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollercoastr View Post
    I wondered if/when I'd be volunteered for that role!
    Feel free to jump in any time you want. The only thing that "200 meaningful posts" and label/badge gets you is accusations that you're just a shill for Taylor test kits or you work for the site and get paid to say the things you do or you've been drinking the chlorine Kool-Aid too long. The one's that are resistant and argumentative are far more likely to trust the opinion of someone new like them than one of us old-geezers....
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: TFP Methods

    I suspect that I come across too curt at times. First, I am vying with Dave for the title of TFP's Most Crotchedy Old Man.

    But mostly it's because I make 99% of my posts on here from my phone, and it's just too much work to type up a novella for each person that wants help. It's also a hassle to include a lot of links in my posts. So I tend to get straight to the point as much as possible and then get out. I won't waste a lot of time trying to convince anyone to do things our way. Lay it out in front of them and they can take it or leave it.

    I don't know, but this may be the case for some others here too.
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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: TFP Methods

    TroubleFreePool.com exists to develop and promote a simple, inexpensive, and effective system of pool care.....Trouble Free Pool Care (TFPC).

    We provide a forum where pool owners can learn, develop and share their pool / spa knowledge.

    We believe that armed with the power of understanding, any pool owner can achieve and maintain crystal clear water without reliance on the often unproductive advice and unneeded expense from pool stores.

    We emphasize the importance of self management, self testing and a willingness to learn.

    It is also our mission to help owners troubleshoot all parts of their pools....frequently allowing the owner to DIY a task that he/she could not accomplish alone.
    This is right from the front page and something that clearly states our mission. We aren't here to be persuaded by the latest product that we know can cause more harm than it's worth. We aren't here to be persuaded to buy the newest product that we know will cause members to waste money and see no results. It's simply not in the best interest of the forum. From time to time you will see discussions where we try to teach the OP the dangers of a product by openly talking about the Pro's vs. the Con's however by far those threads are few and far between.

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    Re: TFP Methods

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    Feel free to jump in any time you want. The only thing that "200 meaningful posts" and label/badge gets you is accusations that you're just a shill for Taylor test kits or you work for the site and get paid to say the things you do or you've been drinking the chlorine Kool-Aid too long. The one's that are resistant and argumentative are far more likely to trust the opinion of someone new like them than one of us old-geezers....
    That my lack of posts can GIVE me credibility is something I hadn't considered. That makes a lot of sense. I think I can and will leverage that.
    12,000 gal Diamond Brite indoor​ pool. Pentair Triton TR-60 Sand Filter +added DE, Lochinvar Energyrite ERN-200 gas heater, Pentair Multi-valve, Pentair SuperFlo VS pump, TF-100 kit, Pool Math App - iOS

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    Re: TFP Methods

    Quote Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
    We aren't here to be persuaded by the latest product that we know can cause more harm than it's worth. We aren't here to be persuaded to buy the newest product that we know will cause members to waste money and see no results.
    I get that too. In fact, the way I found the BA threads that produced the quotes that started this thread was by searching TFP after a Pool $tore attempt to sell me BA.

    That actually brings me back to my point: the BA threads went deep enough to satisfy my curiosity about it: if/when it ever works, it's under specifically favorable conditions and a significant cost. If those threads had been closed too soon, people may be wondering if the claims are true after all.

    So that's all I'm saying: sometimes the fight is worth fighting, and I'm willing to step up.
    12,000 gal Diamond Brite indoor​ pool. Pentair Triton TR-60 Sand Filter +added DE, Lochinvar Energyrite ERN-200 gas heater, Pentair Multi-valve, Pentair SuperFlo VS pump, TF-100 kit, Pool Math App - iOS

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    TFP Methods

    I haven't hardly posted on here at all this year. I haven't hardly even looked at the forum that often in fact. At least not as far as trying to help and convince others to see the light. Here's my story, told in as few words as possible. Ten years ago I had a hot tub that came with a house I bought, and also a blue ring intex pool. I followed the pool chemical manufacturers instructions and never had anything but a bad chlorine smell from the indoor hot tub, and algae in the intex. I got rid of the intex at the end of the season, and gave the hot tub away when I remodeled the room it was in. Fast forward to two years ago. I wanted a house with some land, the wife wanted a house closer to town. We settled on one with an acre, a big garage, and an inground pool. The second we decided on it, I started scouring the Internet for information about pool care because I didn't want a 30k gallon swamp. I found this site within the first day of searching, and knew this was the method for me. I'm all about testing and understanding processes. A few years ago the wife and I had decided that the natural approach was the best in order to stay away from chemical contact. We eat organic as much as possible, and avoid as much chemical contact as possible. I work at a chemical plant, so I understand the dangers of chemicals. We make around 27k lbs of liquid chlorine per hour, and have 1-2 million pounds on hand at all times. We also have pure hcl, which is what muriatic acid is made from. So when people freak out about the dangers of bleach and muriatic acid, I usually giggle inside then provide some helpful tips and encouragement. Anyway, after reading on the site for a few days I realized that chlorine really was the best approach because it literally kills everything it touches. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force him to use your pool care method. I've told five other people I know with pools about the true easy method we use. One had his pool built the year before I bought mine. No luck. Another bought a house with a pool about the same time we did. No luck. Both use pucks. Another had a pool put in last year. He bought a k-2006 and has a swg. At least that ones a half victory. Not sure how closely he monitors things. My mom has an indoor pool. Finally convinced her pristine blue sucked. She bought a tf-100, but doesn't use it enough, or follow everything like she should. A guy at church has an above ground. He's an engineer, so the test kit part was cake. Another guy at church recommended an swg, as did I. The only problem was the other guy just took the swg as a silver bullet that cured all ails instead of doing any real testing or monitoring. Anyway, that's my story and record so far. It's hard to persuade people who aren't really research types. I read and research everything to exhaustion, so I didn't need nearly as much hand holding as some people do. I am impressed with the amount of patience a lot of people on this site have.


    30K gallon IG vinyl. 1.5HP 2-speed Waterway Mustang pump. 600 lb sand filter. Polaris 280. Circupool SI-60+. TF-100

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: TFP Methods

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollercoastr View Post
    That actually brings me back to my point: the BA threads went deep enough to satisfy my curiosity about it: if/when it ever works, it's under specifically favorable conditions and a significant cost. If those threads had been closed too soon, people may be wondering if the claims are true after all.
    Wow, I split this off and went to work..... Lot's of action!

    As far as BioActive is concerned.....

    Threads are closed because the posters are not willing to PROVE their methods when they say it worked. Google almost anything pool related and TFP is in the top of the list of responses. We must maintain our reputation. We cannot infer that a product works without proof. When teh product first came out we had several members use reliable testing (TF-100 or Taylor K-2006) or the product with minimal lowering of CYA. To their credit, the company participated early on and even sent multiple people extra bags of the product when minimal results were achieved. They made recommendations and for some reason seemed to drift off.

    What we want is reliable testing. In the latest thread (which has never been locked, by the way) all testing was using test strips and pool store testing. We will NEVER use those results as a basis for recommending a product.

    I guess Lee said it best:
    Quote Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
    I've watched this product very closely over the last year or so with great interest. Time and time again the users who reported a "success" all had one thing in common.......poor testing practices. Relaying on test strips or pool store results to give you accurate results has proven itself to be a poor practice multiple times over the years. Your reduction in CYA (if you've seen any) is due to inaccurate test results providing false results. There may have been a small reduction however dollar for dollar the best practice that's proven itself over the years has been a drain/refill.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: TFP Methods

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollercoastr View Post
    I get that too. In fact, the way I found the BA threads that produced the quotes that started this thread was by searching TFP after a Pool $tore attempt to sell me BA.

    That actually brings me back to my point: the BA threads went deep enough to satisfy my curiosity about it: if/when it ever works, it's under specifically favorable conditions and a significant cost. If those threads had been closed too soon, people may be wondering if the claims are true after all.

    So that's all I'm saying: sometimes the fight is worth fighting, and I'm willing to step up.

    I found TFP some time ago as we were planning on switching from Baquacil to chlorine. I knew nothing about maintaining a chlorine pool but that it HAD to be cheaper than Baqua. My first stop to learn was the local pool store whom I dealt with for YEARS. I spent almost an hour picking the owners brain and got a lesson on maintaining a chlorine pool. Add "the frog" system to the skimmer each month, add a pound of chlorine shock every other week, and a pound of non-chlorine shock on the off weeks. Keep a tap in the feeder at all times and I should be hassle free. I did the math and quickly tossed a red flag......after which I hit the net looking for more answers.

    As you can see I too was "pool stored." I had no idea what I was doing and was almost taken for a huge chunk of change. Had it not been for the threads I found on the net I too would have been lost. I FULLY understand the desire to learn all we can about these "bogus science" products and to make sure we teach all we can about them. There does come a point, and this point varies from thread to thread, in which we need to bring the discussion to a close in some way. Unfortunately at times this closure can make TFP look like the "bad guy" when in fact we're only wanting to help the masses. Do I agree there maybe threads in which we could do more?? Yes. Do I think we're doing the best we can in handling these tricky threads?? Yes. Do I think you'll find another pool forum on the net that has the wealth of info as you can find here about all pool related topics???? I pride myself in being able to say no. That really is due to the hard work of all TFP's users who help answer thousands of questions each year. As Matt said, please, chime in and assist users. You'll get a great feeling knowing you've helped them learn something that brings the joy of pool ownership......not the constant headaches that pool stores sell.

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