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Thread: Sense and Dispense issue, Hayward not helping or do they?

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    Sense and Dispense issue, Hayward not helping or do they?

    So i am having issues with the ORP sensor in my sense and dispense system.

    The OPR doesn't make sense sometimes it is showing 600 when the fc is 12 and 630 when the fc is 3.

    So i contacted Hayward support, they asked me for the pool test result which i gave them
    CYA = 70
    pH = 7.5
    TA = 110
    CH = 250
    FC = 10
    CC = 0
    SALT - 3400

    Then they ask me to get the result from a pool store, so i did and the result was the same as mine.

    So now they ask me to find out what is the value of the pool's phosphates, i had to go to the pool store since i don't have that test at home the result was 200.

    Ha ha they say, you need to reduce that value this is why the ORP doesn't work.

    Why would phosphates interfere with the ORP operation? and if this is correct why doesn't it clearly say that in the manual? i am really disappointing with Hayward support.

    The only way to reduce phosphates is to replace the water, right?
    In California and especially were i live it is forbidden to replace the water in the pool, so what do i do???
    Our Build 2016 14.5' x 26' IG Pebble, 14.5K Gal. 3.5' - 6.5' deep, 5 returns, 2 Skimmers, Hayward VS pump, Hayward 525 Cartridge Filter, Hayward E-Command 4, Heliocol Solar, Hayward LED Light, Paramount Ultraviolet, Polaris 280, AquaRite Pro, T-CELL-15, Sense and Dispense (HL-CHEM), Ph Dispense System (AQL-CHEM3) , Taylor K-2006 with SpeedStir

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    Re: Sense and Dispense issue, Hayward not helping or do they?

    Add a phosphate remover. Orenda phosphate remover work wonders.j jacks magic pool perfect/phosfree does just as well if not better as it also helps your filter efficiently. They're both natural based


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    Re: Sense and Dispense issue, Hayward not helping or do they?

    After the treatment my phosphates are 0.

    Lets see how it will affect the ORP readings.
    Our Build 2016 14.5' x 26' IG Pebble, 14.5K Gal. 3.5' - 6.5' deep, 5 returns, 2 Skimmers, Hayward VS pump, Hayward 525 Cartridge Filter, Hayward E-Command 4, Heliocol Solar, Hayward LED Light, Paramount Ultraviolet, Polaris 280, AquaRite Pro, T-CELL-15, Sense and Dispense (HL-CHEM), Ph Dispense System (AQL-CHEM3) , Taylor K-2006 with SpeedStir

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: Sense and Dispense issue, Hayward not helping or do they?

    Phosphates have nothing to do with it, at least not in any meaningful way that relates to ORP voltage

    It's your CYA level; it's too high for most ORP sensors. The primary signal you are trying to measure with ORP is the HOCl/OCl- concentration (with HOCl being the more powerful oxidizer). When CYA is present in pool water, the HOCl levels drop very low (but remain high enough to disinfect if you follow the TFP recommended FC/CYA ratio). However, the TFP levels of HOCl are typically too low for ORP typically making the signal-to-noise ratio way too low. This is why TFP does not recommend the use of automated disinfection systems that use ORP as the primary feedback. In order to properly operate them, you need to have CYA levels below 50ppm and often as low as 30ppm. This causes the ORP to register correctly (for the most part) but now you lose so much FC during the day to sunlight that the OrP probe is constantly telling your chlorinator to run. This then leads to premature cell failure.

    Ditch the ORP and your life will be a lot easier (and cheaper too)...
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Sense and Dispense issue, Hayward not helping or do they?

    Thanks Matt.

    The funny part is that Hayward ask (in the manual) for the CYA level to be 70.
    I want this thing to work not only for the money i already spend but because i like gadgets
    The PH automation is perfect and I hope I could make the ORP work the same.

    Hayward said to lower the ORP value to 500 and it should maintain proper fc levels if not they will send a technician to take a look.
    Our Build 2016 14.5' x 26' IG Pebble, 14.5K Gal. 3.5' - 6.5' deep, 5 returns, 2 Skimmers, Hayward VS pump, Hayward 525 Cartridge Filter, Hayward E-Command 4, Heliocol Solar, Hayward LED Light, Paramount Ultraviolet, Polaris 280, AquaRite Pro, T-CELL-15, Sense and Dispense (HL-CHEM), Ph Dispense System (AQL-CHEM3) , Taylor K-2006 with SpeedStir

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: Sense and Dispense issue, Hayward not helping or do they?

    CYA also fouls most of the ORP sensors over time. If the manual has a cleaning procedure (I think one ORP probe maker recommends using toothpaste to clean the sensor!!) then I would try that too.
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Sense and Dispense issue, Hayward not helping or do they?

    I cleaned it multiple times already as suggested, not with toothpaste, lol.
    Didn't help.
    Our Build 2016 14.5' x 26' IG Pebble, 14.5K Gal. 3.5' - 6.5' deep, 5 returns, 2 Skimmers, Hayward VS pump, Hayward 525 Cartridge Filter, Hayward E-Command 4, Heliocol Solar, Hayward LED Light, Paramount Ultraviolet, Polaris 280, AquaRite Pro, T-CELL-15, Sense and Dispense (HL-CHEM), Ph Dispense System (AQL-CHEM3) , Taylor K-2006 with SpeedStir

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    Re: Sense and Dispense issue, Hayward not helping or do they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaniv View Post
    I cleaned it multiple times already as suggested, not with toothpaste, lol.
    Didn't help.
    Gotcha...well, if you lower ORP control point just be sure that the system is supplying the proper amount of FC as measured using the DPD-FAS chlorine test. Whatever the ORP voltage is, you need it to correlate to a correct value.

    If you like expensive control system gadgets, go check out the ChemTrol pool controls - CHEMTROL POOL CONTROL . They sell probes that actually measure FC levels directly without all the ORP interferences....neat stuff if you have lots of money to spend....
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Sense and Dispense issue, Hayward not helping or do they?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post

    If you like expensive control system gadgets, go check out the ChemTrol pool controls - CHEMTROL POOL CONTROL . They sell probes that actually measure FC levels directly without all the ORP interferences....neat stuff if you have lots of money to spend....
    That looks great! from a quick look i don't see how i connect that system to the Aquarite pro to control the salt generator, any ideas?
    Our Build 2016 14.5' x 26' IG Pebble, 14.5K Gal. 3.5' - 6.5' deep, 5 returns, 2 Skimmers, Hayward VS pump, Hayward 525 Cartridge Filter, Hayward E-Command 4, Heliocol Solar, Hayward LED Light, Paramount Ultraviolet, Polaris 280, AquaRite Pro, T-CELL-15, Sense and Dispense (HL-CHEM), Ph Dispense System (AQL-CHEM3) , Taylor K-2006 with SpeedStir

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: Sense and Dispense issue, Hayward not helping or do they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaniv View Post
    That looks great! from a quick look i don't see how i connect that system to the Aquarite pro to control the salt generator, any ideas?
    It probably does not. Their control systems typically out a 4-20mA proportional signal output and so are likely to found with Stenner pump type dosing systems. Unless Hayward provides for an input control of that type, it would not interface easily with your SND system.
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Sense and Dispense issue, Hayward not helping or do they?

    Agree with above. I use the pentair intellichem. Elevated cya messes up orp readings. I keep Orp less than 30 an orp makes sense.
    " A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"
    19,000 gallon sylvan pool, Easytouch 2 4p automation, Screenlogic interface, Intelliflo VF 3050 pump, Intellichem with Intellichlor 40 chlorinator/Muriatic acid, Raypac millivolt natural gas heater.Polaris pool cleaner with booster pump.Coverstar automatic cover hydraulic mechanism with PCS cover. Wet edge Luna quartz finish 2016. Northeast climate.

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