Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    Hey everyone. This is the first time I've ever had water clarity issues for this long, and I'm at the frustration stage now. For years and years, following the same BBB maintenance routine my water has been sparkling clear with little effort.

    However, my pool clouded over a few weeks ago. I thought it was just a low PH issue (the PH *was* low) so as usual I just added a dose of Borax and things seemed to come back into balance, but the water never cleared. . I had my water tested at 2 different pool places for comparative purposes (because I don't have a great test kit....I know, I know...but due to typically zero issues I've never *needed* a great test kit) and everything showed balanced except my alkalinity which is on the high side, but no more so than I've had in years passed which I typically didn't concern myself with too much.

    So, I hit the pool with bisulph which didn't put a huge dent in the TA (still high), but of course brought the PH down, although it's since come back up to a reasonably normal level. However...although the clarity has improved, it's far from sparkling, and the haze/cloud is getting on my nerves. This is also the first time ever I've had to use acid in my pool - typically thanks to BBB my maintenance amounts to keeping my chlorine levels stable and adding a small amount of borax once every week or two to bump PH levels that typically seem to bleed downwards in my pool.

    So... should I hit the pool hard with bisulph again to rapidly get the TA down to the "normal" zone, and then aerate for a few days to work the PH back up? The weather here is forecasted to be crappy for the next few days so leaving the cover off and putting the fountain on one of the jets to go for maximum aeration wouldn't be an issue.

    Like I said...I've never worried much about TA as it's never caused me any issues, but given as how everything else seems to be in check I'm left with the assumption that my very high TA is the cause for my cloudiness issues?

    Low CL or the beginning of an algae bloom can be safely ruled out - I watch my CL levels carefully.

    Thanks everyone.
    Mark
    -- Courtice, Ontario, Canada. "Cabo San Backyardo"
    12x16 3/4 inground - Hayward 3400VSP, Sand Filter, Rooftop 4x20 solar w/ Hayward GL235 automation.
    Previously installed at a neighbors, before, during & after photos HERE!

  2. Back To Top    #2

    TFP Guide

    AimeeH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Columbia SC
    Posts
    1,837

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    Naturally we'd like to see a full set of test results

    You say chlorine hasn't been low but what is your CYA?
    18*36*23 true "L" vinyl IG 29,000 gallons. SWG. TF-100 test kit.
    http://tftestkits.net/splash-page.html

  3. Back To Top    #3
    mas985's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pleasanton, CA
    Posts
    11,487

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    Low CL or the beginning of an algae bloom can be safely ruled out - I watch my CL levels carefully.
    Have you performed a OCLT to rule it out?

    Pools rarely cloud up because of TA and PH.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by AimeeH View Post
    Naturally we'd like to see a full set of test results

    You say chlorine hasn't been low but what is your CYA?
    Sorry, forgot to include the most important parts.

    CYA is at 60. Higher than in years past but still far from lock territory. We were away on vacation and I had to rely on pucks for 2 weeks since I couldn't be 100% sure my son would maintain things properly and we wouldn't return to a frog pond, so that did raise my CYA higher than the 30-40 It's typically been at in years past.

    I keep my CL around 3, although it does often fade down to 1-1.5 or so before I dose again. I am seeing normal CL consumption on a daily basis. This is the regiment I've stuck with for years and has always worked perfectly for me. I have had the occasional low CL scare that resulted in cloud, but knowing what caused it I was always able to recover in short order. I have been very regimental about my CL since this cloudiness came on and I'm 99.9% confident it's not CL related.

    Current TA is slightly north of 200. PH 7.5.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    Have you performed a OCLT to rule it out?
    Admittedly, no...but further to my last reply in the first week or so of the cloud I kept my CL at nearly shock levels for days at a time. I was on the same page thinking it was an algae bloom beginning because my CL may had got low (which it hadn't), but despite seeing consistently good (or at least safe) CL levels everytime I test my issue continues.

    As mentioned, I've fought near misses before and experienced the rapid chlorine consumption that followed as I warded things off and recovered over the period of a day or three, but I'm not seeing it this time. CL is remaining predictable and stable, and with a CYA of 60, well, it doesn't add up. Should I suspect a CL/algae issue anyways?
    Mark
    -- Courtice, Ontario, Canada. "Cabo San Backyardo"
    12x16 3/4 inground - Hayward 3400VSP, Sand Filter, Rooftop 4x20 solar w/ Hayward GL235 automation.
    Previously installed at a neighbors, before, during & after photos HERE!

  5. Back To Top    #5

    TFP Guide
    PAGirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Central PA
    Posts
    2,388

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    You mention you don't have a "good test kit", what is it you are using? If you are having trouble off and on keeping CL levels up previously,if you've never dne a SLAm, you are likely on the edge (or in the middle) of algae.
    26' X 52" Intex Ultra Frame. Intex Sand Filter
    26' X 52 Intex Ultra Frame Install
    You can lead a horse to (clear) water, but you can't force him to swim in it!

  6. Back To Top    #6

    TFP Guide

    AimeeH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Columbia SC
    Posts
    1,837

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    Your chlorine was too low. Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart

    You mention CYA not being at "lock" level. There is no such thing as chlorine lock level.

    You really need a good test kit with FAS-DPD chlorine test. You cannot perform OCLT without that. And when you say shock level what level are you considering "shock" ?
    18*36*23 true "L" vinyl IG 29,000 gallons. SWG. TF-100 test kit.
    http://tftestkits.net/splash-page.html

  7. Back To Top    #7

    In the Industry

    duraleigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Sebring, Florida
    Posts
    30,084

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    pH - virtually never

    TA - virtually never

    Lack of chlorine is the reason for cloudy water most all the time.

    We suggest an FC of around 4-6 ppm with CYA of 60.

    Might be time to rethink the test kit. Everything we teach begins and ends with precise testing.
    but still far from lock territory
    Chlorine lock doesn't exist.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

  8. Back To Top    #8

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by AimeeH View Post
    Your chlorine was too low. Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart
    Sigh...yeah, on further reference, I think the higher CYA levels I'm left dealing with this summer courtesy of a few weeks of puck reliance is what's coming back to bite me now. It's been a while since I looked at those charts and indeed my typically low CL levels I've always preferred to maintain are now not going to cut it.

    I've typically been getting up into the 15-20 PPM territory for shock (again, as was customary in years past for my lower CYA levels), but also referencing the chart, yeah, I can now see that's not going to cut it either. I guess that would explain why my last shock didn't clear my TC, either.

    Ok, things are starting to make more sense. My CYA is having a far bigger effect than I've been anticipating.

    So, with a rough 5000 gallon calculation for my pool size, what amount of liquid (12.5%) will I need to get to my new required shock level of 25-30? This is new territory for me, I suck at the calculations, and of course there's always that fear in the back of my head about bleaching my liner.
    Mark
    -- Courtice, Ontario, Canada. "Cabo San Backyardo"
    12x16 3/4 inground - Hayward 3400VSP, Sand Filter, Rooftop 4x20 solar w/ Hayward GL235 automation.
    Previously installed at a neighbors, before, during & after photos HERE!

  9. Back To Top    #9

    TFP Guide

    AimeeH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Columbia SC
    Posts
    1,837

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    The pool math link at the top of the web page is your friend. Just put all your current numbers and target numbers along with your pool size and it calculates for you.

    Did we mention getting a proper test kit is in order?
    18*36*23 true "L" vinyl IG 29,000 gallons. SWG. TF-100 test kit.
    http://tftestkits.net/splash-page.html

  10. Back To Top    #10

    TFP Guide
    PAGirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Central PA
    Posts
    2,388

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    You're going to need to Pool School - SLAM - Shock Level And Maintain until you pass all 3 criteria mentioned in the process. (Requires the proper test kit.)
    26' X 52" Intex Ultra Frame. Intex Sand Filter
    26' X 52 Intex Ultra Frame Install
    You can lead a horse to (clear) water, but you can't force him to swim in it!

  11. Back To Top    #11

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by AimeeH View Post
    The pool mat link at the top of the web page is your friend. Just put all your current numbers and target numbers along with your pool size and it calculates for you.

    Did we mention getting a proper test kit is in order?
    Thanks. Can't see the forest for the trees tonight apparently.

    Good test kids are impossible to find up here. When I started with BBB I looked for the 2005/2006 up here across countless pool stores...literally probably 20 of them, including some big ones. No joy. With our short pool season (basically late May through to late September) the pool stores have no interest in selling kits that potentially eliminate their part of the water testing (and selling you stuff) loop. Buying online from the US will cost me nearly $200 after the cost of the kit, shipping, and exchange, so I trust you understand that in the absence of any major issues with my pool for several years now, it was never a priority.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So, looks like I need about 3 liters (102 oz for those in the non metric land) of 12.5% CL to reach my new shock level of 25. That seems like an enormous amount compared to any dose I've ever used, but I guess I need to get used to that until I end up doing a signifigant water change to get my CYA down, huh?
    Mark
    -- Courtice, Ontario, Canada. "Cabo San Backyardo"
    12x16 3/4 inground - Hayward 3400VSP, Sand Filter, Rooftop 4x20 solar w/ Hayward GL235 automation.
    Previously installed at a neighbors, before, during & after photos HERE!

  12. Back To Top    #12

    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Santa Ana, CA
    Posts
    523

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    if you start from partial drain/refill to get CYA down it will also reduce required FC level during SLAM. It depends how soon your were planning to do water change.
    44k plaster pool, Pentair 011018 pump, DE6020 filter, LED lights, K2006 test kit

  13. Back To Top    #13

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    I'll probably just deal with the higher required CL levels for the remainder of the season - realistically only 7-9 weeks left before I'll be closing it anyways.

    12.5% bulk chlorine is cheap here.
    Mark
    -- Courtice, Ontario, Canada. "Cabo San Backyardo"
    12x16 3/4 inground - Hayward 3400VSP, Sand Filter, Rooftop 4x20 solar w/ Hayward GL235 automation.
    Previously installed at a neighbors, before, during & after photos HERE!

  14. Back To Top    #14
    Patrick_B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Midland TX
    Posts
    15,001

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    Well then, no problem! With cheap 12.5% Chlorine available you can get this lined out in no time. I have to say it, but with your short season...even with what you have left, a test kit is well worth the price. Testing for FC and keeping it correct is also about safety and sanitation. Hard to put a price on that I'm sure you'll agree. Although it's a little different for you, a 3 Liter addition is no big deal at all.
    TFP Moderator
    Essential Links:
    ABC's Of Pool Chemistry, Test Kits, SLAM Your Pool
    28K Gal IG FreeForm, CLI Quartz, Pentair 36"SF & VS Pump, Dolphin M5, Rheem

  15. Back To Top    #15
    Swampwoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Posts
    3,535

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    Hi pilot. In Canada, the taylork2006 can be purchased online, here's a link to amazon.ca listing Taylor K-2006-6 Fas-DPD Complete Kit: Amazon.ca: Patio, Lawn Garden

    ..., but if you ever get to Buffalo or Niagra Falls there are sometimes mailing services to order and pickup US items. I know that's a trek for you, but just wanted you to know.

    Cheers to clear!
    In ground extended Grecian, 22,000 gal, Hayward 220t sand filter, vinyl liner, dolphin m4 supreme.
    If TFP has helped you, please click to SUPPORT TFP!
    Helpful Links:
    GET A TEST KIT Chlorine/CYA Chart How to SLAM About Metals & Stains

  16. Back To Top    #16

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampwoman View Post
    Hi pilot. In Canada, the taylork2006 can be purchased online, here's a link to amazon.ca listing

    Thanks for the link...that's much more palatable. Like I said, it was part the price and part the lack of a general need for a fancier test kit that has led to me never bothering to buy one.

    When I refill next spring after the long winter slumber I'm going to be much more careful with my stabilizer levels. They've never been this high ever before and I'm not liking the end result.

    In related news, 24 hours now with significantly higher CL levels maintained and the water does appear to be better today. Will report back again tomorrow.
    Mark
    -- Courtice, Ontario, Canada. "Cabo San Backyardo"
    12x16 3/4 inground - Hayward 3400VSP, Sand Filter, Rooftop 4x20 solar w/ Hayward GL235 automation.
    Previously installed at a neighbors, before, during & after photos HERE!

  17. Back To Top    #17

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    Just following up. You were all of course correct - I raised my chlorine levels up...and hey hey, 2 days later, crystal clear water again.

    I sulked back to the pool store again to get my water tested more accurately than my little test kit will allow. It seems that my CYA levels have crept up over 100, so that definitely explains my requirement for higher CL levels, and my failure to adjust causing my water clarity issues.

    I guess at closing time this year I'll be draining down to about 50% as opposed to the typical 30% or so I usually do, that will at least get my CYA down to a more manageable ~50 level for next summer.
    Mark
    -- Courtice, Ontario, Canada. "Cabo San Backyardo"
    12x16 3/4 inground - Hayward 3400VSP, Sand Filter, Rooftop 4x20 solar w/ Hayward GL235 automation.
    Previously installed at a neighbors, before, during & after photos HERE!

  18. Back To Top    #18
    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    11,602

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    Realistically speaking, how late can you leave the pool open? TFP recommends waiting until the water temps falls below 60F (288.7 K for any budding physicists out there ) since algae reproduction rates drop drastically below 60F. If you waited that long, do you get any seasonal rains that could help you dilute your water a bit more before the cover goes on?
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Re: Persistent water cloudiness... High TA at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    Realistically speaking, how late can you leave the pool open?
    I have left it open until after Halloween before, but usually by then we're getting frost regularly and it's become a lost cause trying to keep it warm with the solar as it gets too cold (down to the single digits) overnight. The last few years I've closed it around the beginning of October.

    When I decide to commit to closing I pull off the cover and run the solar at night to radiate heat to the atmosphere. Usually this drags down the temperatures to well below 60 in short order, and then I close.

    No seasonal rains here, but lots of snow....usually end up with about 3-4 feet on top of the pool cover over the winter and it ends up turning into about a 1-2 foot block of ice come spring.
    Mark
    -- Courtice, Ontario, Canada. "Cabo San Backyardo"
    12x16 3/4 inground - Hayward 3400VSP, Sand Filter, Rooftop 4x20 solar w/ Hayward GL235 automation.
    Previously installed at a neighbors, before, during & after photos HERE!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •