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Thread: CYA above 40 is too high

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    CYA above 40 is too high

    Split off of this topic and this one. JasonLion

    I run the pump 12 hours a day. It turns the water over about 3 times. SWG is on at 15% and it keeps about 5 ppm in the pool. If its uncovered, a hot day, and people are in it, i crank it to 40-50% and hold it there until the pump goes off at night. Next morning, i run it back to 15% to keep 4-5 ppm. My CYA level is 30-40.
    YMMV.

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: Thinking of getting a SWG-Afew questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad S
    I run the pump 12 hours a day. It turns the water over about 3 times. SWG is on at 15% and it keeps about 5 ppm in the pool. If its uncovered, a hot day, and people are in it, i crank it to 40-50% and hold it there until the pump goes off at night. Next morning, i run it back to 15% to keep 4-5 ppm. My CYA level is 30-40.YMMV.
    Brad S, it is highly recommended that CYA levels be kept at 70-80 for SWGs. Please refer to the Water Balance for SWGs article in Pool School.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    Re: Thinking of getting a SWG-Afew questions

    This thread might help explain why your low CYA level is a potential problem:
    water-balance-tips-for-a-swg-t3663.html

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Re: Thinking of getting a SWG-Afew questions

    Quote Originally Posted by frustratedpoolmom


    Brad S, it is highly recommended that CYA levels be kept at 70-80 for SWGs. Please refer to the Water Balance for SWGs article in Pool School.
    Yea, i know what it says. And i did read all that stuff. The more it runs the more the CO2 can outgas and the more the pH can rise. I have no problem here. My TA is about 70-80, pH runs around 7-6-7.8. Ive added a total of 1-2 cups MA is 6 weeks. Seems to me that all the problems with high CYA goes along with however one makes chlorine. So.. unless there is another reason than having to add a bit of MA once in a blue moon, or maybe cutting down the cell life from 10,000 hours to 8000 hours, or using a bit of electricity, ...i'm all ears.
    Seems that a high CYA level is more problematic and more difficult to deal with than having to add some MA sometimes or having a little extra electricity bill.

    not tryn to be difficult here

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    Just installed New Salt Chlorine Generator

    Maybe bad was too strong a term. we will have to agree to disagree about this higher CYA thing for SWG and move on.

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    Re: Just installed New Salt Chlorine Generator

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad S
    Maybe bad was too strong a term. we will have to agree to disagree about this higher CYA thing for SWG and move on.
    Fine, but you are basing it on your own pool and perhaps some things you have read. I am basing what I say on experience with a large number of salt pools that I have dealt with and know that the higher CYAQ levels directly lead to better pH stability. It's not just a matter of opinion but also of practical experience, not only with SWGs but also other automation systems in both residential and commercial pools.
    It's your pool and you can do whatever you want with it but one of the things that is very true about this forum is that if something works it gets vindicated pretty fast and if something does not it gets discarded pretty fast. We have actually had many discussion on here and at Pool Forum about CYA levels and SWGs and even some experiments done that were documented at PF that did indicate the benefits of higher CYA levels with SWGs. Our recommendations here are not arbitrary but are based on our collective experience and many of them are not in line with "industry standards" but, interestingly enough, we seem to be a force to be reckoned with since some of our recommendations are being looked at by the industry! (For example, there are techs from one of the larger SWG manufacturers that are recommending running the TA at 70 ppm to help control rising pH..they already recommend CYA at 80 ppm.)
    ai am curious as to why you are opposed to raising your CYA?

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    Re: Just installed New Salt Chlorine Generator

    Quote Originally Posted by waterbear
    but you are basing it on your own pool and perhaps some things you have read.

    What else should i base it on but my own pool?

    If shock values are affected by higher CYA levels, then those values apply independent of how one chlorinates. Thats my point when i said higher CYA levels are "bad". If all that happens is that the ph might go up a bit, and you have to add some MA once in awhile, i think that outweighs having to do the drain/refill dance i see people doing on here. And, id rather adjust the pH down sometimes than have to add gallons of bleach to shock because my CYA level is to high.
    As for cell life, or higher elctricity bills, well, i'll just buy a new one and pay the bills. Not to ruffle feathers, but a pool is a big expense. I kind of feel like if you cant afford to maintain it, buy new parts, pay the electricity/gas bills, then dont put one in. You cant maintian one on the cheap.

    Like i said, im not trying to be a pain, i realize you have all this experience, and ive been on here a week. I'm a PhD in chemistry and biology, so im a bit opinionated to begin with as a scietist. But, its my opinion. When i have a problem with low CYA, i'll be the 1st on here with my hat in my and asking for forgiveness
    So.. my last word on this CYA thing. Mine is ~40 ppm, and im happy with it.

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    Re: Thinking of getting a SWG-Afew questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad S
    Seems that a high CYA level is more problematic and more difficult to deal with than having to add some MA sometimes or having a little extra electricity bill.

    not tryn to be difficult here
    Please explain how a CYA of 80 ppm would be 'problematic'. I really don't understand what you mean by this.

    You could even lower your FC to 4 ppm and you would have no problems and you would not need to raise the output to 40-50% when the pool gets high usage. Seems to me it would be less problematic. The other factor is the higher CYA level translates into a lower level of "active' chlorine in the pool and therefore lowers corrosion risks.

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    Re: Thinking of getting a SWG-Afew questions

    Quote Originally Posted by waterbear

    Please explain how a CYA of 80 ppm would be 'problematic'. I really don't understand what you mean by this.
    Its all over tihs web site. i read it every day. someone posts, "MY chlorine is disapearing, i cant keep chlorine in my pool". then someone who lives on this site says "drain the pool and refill, your CYA is too high. It should be lower" (i imagine a booming voice from on high).
    so. this is what i mean. consisitency in the message anyone?


    Quote Originally Posted by waterbear
    You could even lower your FC to 4 ppm and you would have no problems and you would not need to raise the output to 40-50% when the pool gets high usage.
    Whats the problem with pushing a little button to raise the chlorine a bit?


    Quote Originally Posted by waterbear
    The other factor is the higher CYA level translates into a lower level of "active' chlorine in the pool and therefore lowers corrosion risks.
    So...lower active chlorine is good except when you need it higher to fight off algea, then with a high CYA level of 80, i need to turn up the generator to 60-80 (which you dont like) or i go to walmart and buy copious amounts of chlorox and pour it in at all hours of the day and night to get it up to shock levels because my CYA is too high, when it would be just as easy to keep my CYA levels a bit lower and push a little button on my generator to up the output when we have heavy usage.
    Somehow, I'm not seeing any consistency in the messages here.

  10. Back To Top    #10
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    Re: Just installed New Salt Chlorine Generator

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad S
    Quote Originally Posted by waterbear
    but you are basing it on your own pool and perhaps some things you have read. quote]


    What else should i base it on but my own pool?
    Then perhaps you don't need the collective knowledge on this forum. Sorry if that sounds harsh but it's a true statement if you don't feel you need to learn anything from other people's experience.
    If shock values are affected by higher CYA levels, then those values apply independent of how one chlorinates.
    Then again, most properly cared for Salt pools rarely, if ever need shocking. In 5 years with my own SWG i have shocked a total of 3 times and two of those times were after hurricaines and the other was after a 10 day vacation where i had shut the entire system down while I was gone last August (and I did not return to a green pool, only a slightly cloudy one, thanks to 50 ppm borates in the water!) In all cases a shock level of 20 ppm took care of the problems. My pool is open year 'round, btw, so if I needed to shock a lot it would be more evident than with a pool only open for a few months a year.
    Thats my point when i said higher CYA levels are "bad". If all that happens is that the ph might go up a bit, and you have to add some MA once in awhile, i think that outweighs having to do the drain/refill dance i see people doing on here.
    You are confusing a SWG, where the CYA is added to a certain level, and people using trichlor in a feeder or floater, which causes CYA levels to continue to rise.
    Stabilized chlorine products like trichlor are chlorinated isocyanurates and continue to raise cyanuric acid levels with use. For each 10 ppm FC added trichlor will add 6 ppm CYA and dichlor 9 ppm CYA so you can see that a pool can quickly become overstabilzed if you do the math.
    When using an unstabilized chlorine source (cal hypo, lithium hypo, sodium hypo, SWG which produces sodium hypo, or chlorine gas) then the problem of overstabilization is non existant.
    You are confusing apples with oranges here!
    (And I like the way you opted my saying of "drain and refill dance! I take it as a compliment!)

    And, id rather adjust the pH down sometimes than have to add gallons of bleach to shock because my CYA level is to high.

    Once again, shocking is a non issue with a SWG. It is not something that you will be doing on a regular basis if you properly maintain your pool.
    As for cell life, or higher elctricity bills, well, i'll just buy a new one and pay the bills. Not to ruffle feathers, but a pool is a big expense. I kind of feel like if you cant afford to maintain it, buy new parts, pay the electricity/gas bills, then dont put one in. You cant maintian one on the cheap.
    Actually, by following the advice on this forum you CAN maintain a pool much cheaper than by following the advice from the average pool store as the vast majority of our members can attest to (and as someone who has worked in the retail end of the business, I can attest to also! Do I hear an "Amen!" brother and sister?
    Like i said, im not trying to be a pain, i realize you have all this experience, and ive been on here a week. I'm a PhD in chemistry and biology, so im a bit opinionated to begin with as a scietist. But, its my opinion. When i have a problem with low CYA, i'll be the 1st on here with my hat in my and asking for forgiveness
    So.. my last word on this CYA thing. Mine is ~40 ppm, and im happy with it.
    Like I said, it's your pool and you can do what you want with it but as a scientist you should be able to see from what I just posted on CYA and stabilized vs unstabilized chlorine and shocking a salt system that you are basing your decision on faulty data based on erroneous assumptions while our recommendations are based on quite an extensive set of field tested data.

    BTW, since you are a chemist we look forward to your input in some of our more theoretical threads that happen in "The Deep End". You will meet the likes of chem geek, JasonLion, mas985, myself and a few other that like to delve deep into the chemistry that is REALLY going on in our water! (I'm the one that likes to simplify things for less technical folks--must be my education background!)

    You might find these threads of interstest!
    pool-water-chemistry-t628.html
    why-not-run-swg-pool-with-no-cya-t11167.html

    And this link that chem geek got permission to post from O'Brian's 1974 book "J. E. O'Brien, J. C. Morris and J. N. Butler, “Equilibria in Aqueous Solutions of Chlorinated Isocyanurate”, Chapter 14 in Alan J. Rubin, ed., Chemistry of Water Supply, Treatment and Distribution, 1973 Symposium, (published 1974), Ann Arbor Science Publishers, Ann Arbor, MI, pp. 333-358. ISBN 0-250-40036-7 is a very good paper on the chemistry of CYA in pool water!
    http://richardfalk.home.comcast.net/~ri ... OBrien.htm


    The above link was originally posted in this thread that you might also find interesting:
    questions-about-chlorine-and-cya-t11616.html

    As you can see we are not afraid of chemistry in this forum and quite welcome it!

  11. Back To Top    #11
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: CYA above 40 is too high

    We tell people their CYA level is too high when it is above 80.

    If you run a SWG with CYA at 30 to 40, the cell will last a little over half as long as if you run a SWG with CYA at 70 to 80.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: CYA above 40 is too high

    Edited for politeness. JasonLion BTW, Pentiar (the manufacturer of your SWCG cell) recommends a range of 50-80ppm CYA.
    My Pool:
    12K gal IG gunite with 7' raised spa, gunite waterfall, PebbleTec Caribbean Blue finish, solar heating & in-floor cleaning system

    Equipment: Sta-Rite 300' Cartridge Filter, Intellichlor IC20 SWCG, Sta-Rite 400k BTU heater, Intelliflow 4x160 main pump & Sta-Rite 3/4 hp waterfall pump, EasyTouch controlls w/ wireless controller, TF-100 Test Kit w/ salt test.

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    Re: CYA above 40 is too high

    You are confusing someone who is chlorinating with a chlorinated isocyanurate like trichlor and not someone using an unstabilized chlorine source such as sodium hypochlorite, which is what a SWG produces. With unstabilized chlorine CYA needs to be added to the proper level and it will decrease with time because of splashout and/or backwashing but will NOT increase. I suggest you visit the pool school section of the forum (link in the upper right hand corner of every page) and read everything on it twice. It might help to end your confusion on this topic.

  14. Back To Top    #14
    Guest

    Re: CYA above 40 is too high

    Two threads have been merged into this thread so the order is a bit mixed up. If you follow the subjects of the posts you can decipher them!

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    Re: CYA above 40 is too high

    Quote Originally Posted by EskimoPie
    Edited for politeness. JasonLion BTW, Pentiar (the manufacturer of your SWCG cell) recommends a range of 50-80ppm CYA.
    And they state that when the pool gets full sunlight to go with the 80 ppm! But that is not the best way to convince a new pool owner (and he stated that this is only his second season owning a pool in one of his threads and that the pool did not come online until later in the summer, labor day in fact. and had a water temp of 45 degrees when he opened so the effect of low CYA would not be evident since the SWG would not even be functioning with the water that cold!
    post103242.html#p103242)
    that he has some misinformation. He is clearly confusing overstabilization from the use of trichlor with using proper CYA levels for the method of chlorination. I wonder what he would say when he finds out that pools that are gas chlorinated are routinely given CYA levels of 100 ppm!
    It's a learning curve and we are just trying to help him over his.

  16. Back To Top    #16

    Re: CYA above 40 is too high

    Quote Originally Posted by EskimoPie
    Sounds to me like you know it all buddy... why bother coming here then? BTW, Pentiar (the manufacturer of your SWCG cell) recommends a range of 50-80ppm CYA. I suppose you know more than them too though huh?
    Edited for politeness. JasonLion I just read stuff here and it seems inconsistent.
    As i read all of this stuff, i found some very useful info. I also find some info that seems inconsistent. i am not confusing people who use stabalized products that keep elevating CYA levels, I get that. I'm not dense. I just point out things I see. As far as Pentair recomending 50-80, they do that so the cell life might last a bit longer, i'm sure. Some of the things presented as gospel are opinions, some actually make a difference. And, 50 pmm?
    My bet is the kits with the black dots can be off more than 10 ppm, so we are really haggling over a measly 10mg/L! My guess is also most people read that test low.

    Edited for politeness. JasonLion

    Seems to me that moderators dont like being crossed here. i guess no one else can have a different opinion, so i'll go back to lurking and think for myself. I cant sit by and be a lemming and follow the gospel and not ask the question why and expect the anwsers to be "because we say so".



    You are confusing someone who is chlorinating with a chlorinated isocyanurate like trichlor and not someone using an unstabilized chlorine source such as sodium hypochlorite, which is what a SWG produces.
    No im not. Just usng your own logic. If 80 ppm is too high for someone who uses even bleach, then its too high for a SWG.
    With unstabilized chlorine CYA needs to be added to the proper level and it will decrease with time because of splashout and/or backwashing but will NOT increase.

    No, really??. I would have never figured that out

    I suggest you visit the pool school section of the forum (link in the upper right hand corner of every page) and read everything on it twice. It might help to end your confusion on this topic.


    Again, no confusion here. i can read

    you also say someone who uses a SWG probably does not need to shock. I agree. Thats not the point, though. The point is that if 80 ppm is too high, then its too high for any method one uses for chlorination, period.

    lookit, this seems like a good little forum. Just looks to me like any disagreement gets met with we are right your are wrong. Ok, whatever. i respectfully disagreed and was content to leave it at that. Edited for politeness. JasonLion

    FWIW, i think a lot of people worry over, and mess with the pool chemistry far too much. Test it regularly, keep it chlorinated, run the pump, dont be cheap with electricity. Like i said before, if you cant afford the upkeep, electricity, etc, dont build one.

  17. Back To Top    #17

    Re: CYA above 40 is too high

    Quote Originally Posted by waterbear
    and had a water temp of 45 degrees when he opened so the effect of low CYA would not be evident since the SWG would not even be functioning with the water that cold!
    No kidding. Wow, id would have never guessed.

    Edited for politeness. JasonLion

  18. Back To Top    #18

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    Re: CYA above 40 is too high

    I'm trying to understand why the lower CYA is better for a SWG pool?

    I see benefits for 70-80 range as:

    1. longer cell life
    2. less chlorine consumption

    These are given up for a 30-40 range, so what benefits are there to run this way?

    1. less CYA needed to maintain the lower levels

    thanks,
    dave
    15,500 gal, inground gunite pool with 7 ft spa, 2 speed pump 2hp/.33hp, 3/4 hp booster pump, Intermatic P1353 timer, AutoPilot SC-48, Sand filter with ZeoBest, Heater, that I never use . . .

  19. Back To Top    #19
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    Re: CYA above 40 is too high

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad S
    My bet is the kits with the black dots can be off more than 10 ppm, so we are really haggling over a measly 10mg/L! My guess is also most people read that test low.
    The accuracy of the CYA test depends on who is reading it. People with more experience do better. Under ideal conditions it is +-10. For most people on the forum it is probably +-15, for some it is more like +-20.

    Most people read the CYA test higher than actual. It is very common for people to stop before the black dot has completely disappeared, which gives a higher than actual result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad S
    The point is that if 80 ppm is too high, then its too high for any method one uses for chlorination, period.
    I don't believe that we have ever said that CYA at 80 is too high. Someone on the forum might have said that at some point, or there might be something that appears to imply that, but it isn't something we normally say.

    What we do say is that you never want CYA to be 100 or higher, and 90 is questionable. That isn't technically true in every situation, but it is a very good guideline for someone who doesn't understand all of the things that can happen with high CYA levels.

    We then further suggest that CYA levels between 30 and 50 are best for bleach users and CYA levels between 70 and 80 are best for SWG users. Those are suggested levels, occasionally strongly suggested levels, but that is not the same as saying that above 50 is "too high". If you read enough posts you will even see us suggest that higher CYA levels are appropriate with bleach in specific situations.

    The different ways of adding chlorine have different tradeoffs. Bleach users are much more likely to get algae, making lower CYA levels more attractive. SWG users are more likely to be concerned with cell life and PH drift, making higher CYA levels more attractive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad S
    Quote Originally Posted by waterbear
    Please explain how a CYA of 80 ppm would be 'problematic'.
    Its all over tihs web site. i read it every day.
    Perhaps you should actually read what is being said more closely. The situations that come up every day are consistently people who have their CYA over 100, often way way over 100. Way over 100 is not the same thing as 80, not even remotely close in practical terms.

    If you have your own opinions, that is great. We would love it if you could explain them to us, we actually would like to hear an explanation. But please don't try to justify your position by claiming that we have said things that we don't say.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: CYA above 40 is too high

    [quote=Brad S]

    Edited for politeness. JasonLion I just read stuff here and it seems inconsistent.

    Please point out what you find inconsistent here in the forum. If you compare what we say to some other forums on the net you might find some inconsistencies but we are not controlled by pool stores or other vested interests!
    As i read all of this stuff, i found some very useful info. I also find some info that seems inconsistent. i am not confusing people who use stabalized products that keep elevating CYA levels, I get that. I'm not dense. I just point out things I see.
    But you clearly are confusing these as evidenced by your previous post!

    Quote Originally Posted by "Brad S":208wdnw4
    Quote Originally Posted by waterbear

    Please explain how a CYA of 80 ppm would be 'problematic'. I really don't understand what you mean by this.
    Its all over tihs web site. i read it every day. someone posts, "MY chlorine is disapearing, i cant keep chlorine in my pool". then someone who lives on this site says "drain the pool and refill, your CYA is too high. It should be lower" (i imagine a booming voice from on high).
    so. this is what i mean. consisitency in the message anyone?
    'nuff said?



    As far as Pentair recomending 50-80, they do that so the cell life might last a bit longer, i'm sure. Some of the things presented as gospel are opinions, some actually make a difference. And, 50 pmm?
    My bet is the kits with the black dots can be off more than 10 ppm, so we are really haggling over a measly 10mg/L! My guess is also most people read that test low.
    You are making a lot of guesses for someone who has owned a pool for such a short time!
    Look, i see I've ruffled some feathers here. i've crossed a moderator that has a large following that read his every word a gospel. i get that. i'm on several other forums of a completely different nature, and it happens there too.
    No, I just happen to have a chemistry background also and a lot of experience with pools and spas and so not buy into the cooperate misinformation that is so rampant in the pool industry. I had a chemistry background before i ever got involved with pools and saw off the bat that some of the things the industry said just went against basic principals of chemistry! Bottom line is money talks and BS walks! My advice works, plain and simple. And it not really 'my' advice. I keep my mind open to learn all the time and am ready to refine what I know when there is evidence to back it up. Much of what I know I have learned from others and some of what I know I learned from my own experience, which is with both residential and commercial pools and spas.
    Edited for politeness. JasonLion That being said, FWIW, I take offense at the thread titled CYA above 40 too high. I never said that.
    But you implied it and the mod who split this thread (it was NOT me) saw fit to give it that title since it goes against what we teach here and know works well.
    Seems to me that moderators dont like being crossed here. i guess no one else can have a different opinion, so i'll go back to lurking and think for myself. I cant sit by and be a lemming and follow the gospel and not ask the question why and expect the anwsers to be "because we say so".

    It's not "because we say so" and its not "opinion" we are dealing with here. You are a new pool owner with experience with just your own pool, which has not been in operation a very long time. You have never tried our recommendations, which are based on experience and not opinion, so you cannot comment on whether they work or not. If you had done some experiments and presented your findings we would be more than willing to look at your data. In fact, such experiments have been done and documented here and at pool forum and the results confirm our position and not yours!

    You are confusing someone who is chlorinating with a chlorinated isocyanurate like trichlor and not someone using an unstabilized chlorine source such as sodium hypochlorite, which is what a SWG produces.
    No im not. Just usng your own logic. If 80 ppm is too high for someone who uses even bleach, then its too high for a SWG.

    I suggest you study the chlorine/cya relationship chart in pool school and take note of the difference noted for manually chlorinated pools and pools with SWGs. This discrepancy has not been really explained yet but it is theorized that it is linked to the very high levels of FC that are formed in the cell. The same results are not really observed when a pools is automatically chlorinated with liquid chlorine and a peristaltic pump.
    Once again you are comparing apples to oranges.
    And, in certain climates that get a LOT of sun (such as Arizona, S. CA. and S. FL.)the level of CYA for manually chlorinated pool is often as high as 80-90 ppm! This does not mean that these pools can use a stabilized chlorine product without problems, just that they will have better results and lose less FC daily form UV by adjusting their CYA to a higher level!

    With unstabilized chlorine CYA needs to be added to the proper level and it will decrease with time because of splashout and/or backwashing but will NOT increase.

    No, really??. I would have never figured that out

    That was not evident from your posted replies above, such as the one I quoted!

    I suggest you visit the pool school section of the forum (link in the upper right hand corner of every page) and read everything on it twice. It might help to end your confusion on this topic.


    Again, no confusion here. i can read
    Then I suggest you start reading and learning since you have a limited knowlege of pool chemistry. That is evident!
    you also say someone who uses a SWG probably does not need to shock. I agree. Thats not the point, though. The point is that if 80 ppm is too high, then its too high for any method one uses for chlorination, period.
    And here you are wrong. Gas chlorinated pools are routinely brought to a CYA level of 100 ppm! If you knew a bit more about pool care you would have known that AND the reason for it! Perhaps if you put your 'opinions' aside for a bit and open your mind you could learn some useful information.
    lookit, this seems like a good little forum. Just looks to me like any disagreement gets met with we are right your are wrong. Ok, whatever. i respectfully disagreed and was content to leave it at that. Edited for politeness. JasonLion
    It was not backhanded. I was simply trying to help you learn to handle your pool. I assumed that was the reason you joined the forum. I read all your posts and it was very obvious that you are new to pool care and haven't really learned all the ins and outs that we can help you with. Howver it's been said that you can lead a horse to water...
    FWIW, i think a lot of people worry over, and mess with the pool chemistry far too much. Test it regularly, keep it chlorinated, run the pump, dont be cheap with electricity. Like i said before, if you cant afford the upkeep, electricity, etc, dont build one.[/quote:208wdnw4]
    Once you get the pool chemistry right you don't have to mess with it.
    That's the point here. At any rate, when you run into problems with your pool that the pool store cannot seem to solve we will still be here to help you out! You might actually appreciate some of our collective knowledge then!

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