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Thread: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

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    New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    This is my first post, I have been lurking and learning for over a month. We purchased a home last November with an in-ground pool (all known specs are in my signature). I am very open to all advice and constructive criticism. I literally know nothing and will not get offended when told what I am doing wrong. If you are reading this then I appreciate your time and any help I can get. I have had a horrible time figuring all this out and am about to give up. We have a beautiful pool and I would sure hope my family can still get some use out of it this summer.

    I will try to keep this as short as possible but it will be fairly lengthy to give the background needed to explain my situation.

    We purchased the home from an older couple who paid a pool service to do EVERYTHING for them. They had literally no knowledge to pass nor any advice what so ever about maintenance/cleaning/operation of equipment. So, around the beginning of May I had a "pool company" come open my pool. Nice guy, but he literally wasn't qualified to do much more than take the cover off. He took the cover off and couldn't get the pump to prime. Three trips later and after a pump rebuild that I am now certain was unneeded we force fed the pump water from the strainer and got it flowing. He threw a massive amount of "shock" in the pool and told me in 2-3 days it would "drop" and I would be able to see the bottom. At that point I was to vacuum and the pool would be ready to go. 5 days later the pool was still a frog pond. Twice in that time the pump lost prime in the middle of the night, eventually it lost prime and I didn't have time to mess with it and the pool set for a week or 10 days.

    Sometime in early June I got the pump running well and took a sample to the pool store. They sold me a bottle of algaecide and a bucket of shock, told me to dump it all in and bring them a sample in 3 days. I dumped the $90 worth of who knows what and waited. The morning of the third day I went outside and the pump motor was completely gone.

    After some research I ordered a Pentair Superflo 1.5 HP pump and installed it. Somewhere during this period of downtime I found this site and started reading. I knew I was done with the pool stores and this forum would be my only friend when it came to getting this pool running. There has been a lot of hurrying up and waiting since then. My pool looked worse than the pond in our pasture. There were dozens of full grown bull frogs, toads and I even pulled a small copper head out of the skimmer one morning. I knew I needed a test kit to even begin, while I waited on it I let my pump run and filtered the water while I waited. When the kit showed up (Taylor K-2006) I found that I had literally no CYA. Another 2 day wait for the stabilizer and then around a week wait for socks of CYA to dissolve.

    On July 18th I was ready. CYA 35, PH 7.2. I started my slam with a FC goal of 12 per the chart. I started at 10 AM or so and tested and added chlorine on the hour for the first 6 hours. I then went to 2 hour increments until 10 pm. I have been testing and adding at roughly 8 am and 8 pm since. The pool has gotten a lot better, but I have hit a wall. Today is day 10 and the pool has looked the same since day 5 or so. The muddy color is gone, there are no creatures left living in it, but the pool will not clear. When I take my samples at 12-18 inches each day I can see about as far down as my hand. I brush daily, and keep my filter flushed. I have never once vacuumed the pool, I keep waiting hoping to see the bottom. Having never vacuumed before I wouldn't know where to start without some visibility.

    Day 1



    Day 3



    Day 5 - It has looked like this since and we are at day 10 of the slam. Checking morning and night and bringing up to 12 each time.



    - - - Updated - - -

    So....what's my next step? Am I on the right track? I have currently used (48) 64 ounce bottles of bleach and I bought another 30 today. I feel like I have hit a wall and the pool should be getting more clear.
    16,500 in-ground with vinyl liner
    Pentair Superflo Variable Speed Pump 1.5 HP
    Pentair Tagelus TA 60/600 Sand Filter 60 GPM
    Pentair Intellichlor IC40
    Booster Pump 3/4 HP

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    Kiss4aFrog's Avatar
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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    You are on the right track. You might want to take a rake in there blind and see if you have any organic matter laying on the bottom you can scoop out. Anything you can get out saves you that much chlorine. Then try the vacuum even though you can't see. Just do the best you can as once again anything you get out of there will make your SLAM faster and cheaper.

    sometimes it takes a LOT of bleach to get the job done.

    BTW, nice looking layout.
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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    thank you, I am getting pretty discouraged and was afraid I was way off. I will start with the vac tomorrow and see what happens. In all my reading I haven't seen a normal time frame for a slam starting with the condition my pool was in. I know every situation is different, but I keep hoping we might be getting close to getting some clarity.
    16,500 in-ground with vinyl liner
    Pentair Superflo Variable Speed Pump 1.5 HP
    Pentair Tagelus TA 60/600 Sand Filter 60 GPM
    Pentair Intellichlor IC40
    Booster Pump 3/4 HP

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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    The filter is a Pentair Tagelus TA 60. According to the sticker it is rated at 60 GPM and the media is silca sand. It has a maximum working pressure of 50. I flushed the filter once before starting and twice more during the last 10 days. I have been scared that maybe it is working correctly and that might be part of the problem. I don't have anything to base this on, I have just been wondering why I haven't seen any improvement in 5 or so days.
    16,500 in-ground with vinyl liner
    Pentair Superflo Variable Speed Pump 1.5 HP
    Pentair Tagelus TA 60/600 Sand Filter 60 GPM
    Pentair Intellichlor IC40
    Booster Pump 3/4 HP

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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    Quote Originally Posted by jbs121s View Post
    The filter is a Pentair Tagelus TA 60. According to the sticker it is rated at 60 GPM and the media is silca sand. It has a maximum working pressure of 50. I flushed the filter once before starting and twice more during the last 10 days. I have been scared that maybe it is working correctly and that might be part of the problem. I don't have anything to base this on, I have just been wondering why I haven't seen any improvement in 5 or so days.
    I second you definitely have filter problem. When I got my pool that bad for different reason (not algae) it got cleared all the way to the bottom over next day. I don't see how it is possible for filter to 'miss' all that mess over 5 days. You probably would need to open it up and clean inside/check out if you don't have cracked pipe so all those things simply bypass the sand.
    What is your FC overnight loss (when Sun is not shining on your pool)?
    What is your CC level? You obviously failing OCLT for the water not being clear but it's good to know if something is eating your FC and how much. Please turn off your SWG when performing overnight loss test.
    Are you running your pump 24/7?
    One more thing- please post pictures of your plumbing- since you haven't seen this working normally it could happen it never did. Someone posted here recently they had their filter plumbed backwards and it obviously wasn't working.
    44k plaster pool, Pentair 011018 pump, DE6020 filter, LED lights, K2006 test kit

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    I think there are two things that are causing the standstill................amount of testing/dosing and no vacuuming.

    If at all possible try to test/dose 4 times a day like this:

    -morning with first cup of coffee

    -when home after changing clothes

    -after dinner

    -before bed

    I am willing to bet the frogs and snake added "stuff" to the pool. You can vacuum to waste with your sand filter. That way anything that in on the bottom will go out. The only thing bad about it is you will lose some water so I would add water before so that it is as high as you can get it and keep the hose in as you vacuum.

    You ARE on the right track. You just need to put in a little more testing. Maybe this weekend you can test every 2 hours??

    You are going to run out test regents. Go ahead and order refills. Look in my siggy for the place to buy them from.

    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    The previous owners of my pool knew about as much about my "new" pool as the folks you bought from did. My sand filter was not doing a very good job even though I did several deep cleanings. Finally I shop vac'ed the sand out, inspected the laterals and piping. I found no issues then replaced the sand. I know that the sand doesn't "wear out" but I think mine just wouldn't clean up.......it was caked with sludge and goo that wouldn't easily separate from the sand grains. New sand was only $70 so any more effort dealing with the old really wasn't worth it. Night and day difference at how efficient it works and now I know what I am dealing with and that the filter is in tip top shape and has been maintained properly instead of having an unknown factor. Just a thought.

    Oh, and start raking the bottom for debris. Even if you can't see it all getting out whatever you can will only help you.
    33k(ish) gallon, IG, vinyl liner, Pentair IC60 SWG, Pentair Triton II sand filter, 1.5hp Pentair VS pump (SuperFlo), Sta-Rite (Pentair) 400K BTU heater (LP), (2) Pentair LED spa lights, TF-100 test kit w/speed stir

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    Mod Squad zea3's Avatar
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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    When you dropped down to testing and dosing twice a day is when you started losing momentum. Frequent testing/dosing and vacuuming will clear the pool much quicker. You can vacuum with your skimmer basket in place if you are worried about sucking up something that might damage your pump. Vacuum slowly so you don't stir up too much sediment and back wash the filter when there has been a 20% increase in pressure. If you vacuum to waste you will need to check the CYA levels to see if they need to be increased after water replacement. When you have vacuumed the entire pool, brush the sides, test the water and add chlorine accordingly. Do not be discouraged if brushing and vacuuming makes the water look cloudier at first. All the dead algae that settles in the bottom of the pool needs to be stirred up so the filter will catch it.
    TFP Moderator
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    Mark R's Avatar
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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    Pool rake is different then a garden rake.. As silly as this sounds for a owner who has a clue, it might save a owner who has no clue his liner 👍
    12k gal Gunite/Hayward filter C5520BH with quad 33 inch filters. 2.5 hp motor. Pool is on south side, so full sun light. Spill over spa.
    Laar's heater LT250-Low NOx Gas Fired for pool/spa 250,000 BTU. Roof mount 6 panel solar system installed east/south. TF-100 test kit. May-September 100+ degrees out side.

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark R View Post
    Pool rake is different then a garden rake.. As silly as this sounds for a owner who has a clue, it might save a owner who has no clue his liner ��
    VERY good point! Here is one more step to help out:

    Amazon.com : Swimline 8040 Professional Heavy Duty Deep-Bag Pool Rake, Blue : Swimming Pool Maintenance Kits : Patio, Lawn Garden

    It is more a deep bag to scoop up stuff.

    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark R View Post
    Pool rake is different then a garden rake.. As silly as this sounds for a owner who has a clue, it might save a owner who has no clue his liner ��
    Good point. I never thought of someone taking a garden rake to their pool but having been a mechanic I've seen where telling someone one thing ends up with a disaster because they didn't understand but thought they did.
    I should have added a picture of "our rake"

    Since the OP has a sand filter it might take a bit longer to strain out all the stuff. Never hurts to deep clean the filter but it might be a bit early to be suspecting the filters not working properly, IMHO.
    I add a little Pool DE to my filter when I think it needs a little extra help in filtering. Pool School - Add DE to a Sand Filter

    Deep Cleaning a Sand Filter

    Change sand vs deep clean sand filter
    I've done the deep clean and I'm a believer it's better than changing out the sand.
    '70s IG Vinyl 32K gal, Lazy L, Hayward SuperPump 1.5hp 120V, S240 Sand Filter W/DE
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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    Hang in there and keep your chin up, I'm almost a month into my slam and I'm not quite there yet either. As others have mentioned, I too have noticed more frequent testing and additions help move things along faster. I wouldn't go doubting your filter just yet but there are a few clues you can look for.
    Are you finding any sand in your net when you rake the bottom?

    Are you noticing any inconsistencies in filter pressure?

    Are you seeing backflow of "dirt" or dead algae from your returns?

    I had a couple problems with mine and I noticed all of these things. Just some symptoms to look for. I raked for weeks before I had the courage to vacuum, I wanted to make sure I had every last bit of debris I could catch so I wouldn't do any plumbing damage. Now that I'm vacuuming, I'm noticing the biggest changes and my confidence in my efforts is improving day by day. My thinking is, even if I can't use it before winter, It's going to be a breeze on opening for next season. I have a daughter on the way in August (my first) and this work I'm doing is for her, if it takes all season it's worth it.

    40x20 in ground, 33,000 gal, vinyl liner, Hayward 300lb pro series sand filter, Hayward 1.5hp super pump, aquabot xtreme, chlorine

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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    I am also thinking that you should consider your CYA at 40 and slam at 16ppm.

    If the black dot disappeared midway between 30 and 40, you are much closer to 40 than you think. The CYA scale is logarithmic, not linear, as you can tell from the distances between markings on the vial. Even if you truly are at CYA of 35, your shock level would be 14, not 12.

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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    I learned this little trick from kimkats and it boosted my confidence and really let me see what was happening with my water on a daily basis. Take your pictures looking into your steps. I try to position myself in the same spot each time and if possible, the same time of day.
    40x20 in ground, 33,000 gal, vinyl liner, Hayward 300lb pro series sand filter, Hayward 1.5hp super pump, aquabot xtreme, chlorine

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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    Ok, I have checked back in several times today and was blown away by the amount of response and help from you guys and gals. I wanted to first say thank you before I gave an update.

    1. I stopped and bought a rake on the way home from work. I immediately started "raking" the bottom and was amazed at the amount of half rotted leaves I was getting. I worked about and hour until the pool was a cloudy mess and then tested and brought it back up to 12. I know I am not done with the raking, but I also figured the filter could only do so much over night and I had created more than enough work for it. This was around 7 pm.

    2. I am sure the filter could use a deep cleaning at the minimum and it something I hope to tackle this coming week. I will also add DE at that time.

    3. My filter pressures are pretty consistent since installing the new pump. The do of course vary with the rpm of the pump, but I use the highest setting which creates the most pressure to determine filtering.

    4. I was maybe being conservative with my CYA at 35, I didn't want to damage the liner by running too high a shock level....not sure how serious a problem this is, but I did read about it somewhere. I have been working a lot and we have a 3 week old baby so the sleep is minimal. Sometimes it is hard to process information or sort through what I have retained. I need to vac tomorrow or Sunday and after I add water I will retest. At that point I am sure I will need to add stabilizer and I will determine if I need to bump it up. Either way I appreciate the CYA advice.

    5. I will try the picture from the stairs trick, I am looking for any signs of encouragement I can get. Obviously I still have a lot of debris and have really hindered myself by not running the vac. I won't put it off any longer and will get to sucking something even blind.

    Lastly, I will start testing more often, hopefully 4 times a day as suggested. I did just test now at 11:30 pm after really stirring up junk 5 hours ago, my FC was all the way down to 2, so obviously I did something worthwhile with my raking. I will bring it up again early tomorrow and continue to test.

    Congrats on that baby, Mike, as I mentioned earlier we have a 3 week old. She was due August 5th and decided to come a month early on July 5th. She is our first and it is a life changer. You and I are in the same boat, it's not that I don't enjoy a nice pool, but I am not doing this for me. I have a bunch of nieces, a nephew and a new daughter that I am hoping can enjoy this pool for years to come. A little advice and I know you are getting plenty, everyone told me to sleep now because it wouldn't be the same when she was born. I truly didn't get it until it happened.

    Thanks again for the help.
    16,500 in-ground with vinyl liner
    Pentair Superflo Variable Speed Pump 1.5 HP
    Pentair Tagelus TA 60/600 Sand Filter 60 GPM
    Pentair Intellichlor IC40
    Booster Pump 3/4 HP

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    New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    Congrats on the new baby and welcome to TFP. everyone here is rooting for you and will gladly help you out. Many have been in a similar pool situation and our paying it forward with their advice.


    Free form 17X30. 14,500 Gal. Pentair sand filter and 1.5 hp pump. Aqua-Rite SWCG. TF-100 Test Kit w/Speed Stir

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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    Congrats on the baby. Whenever you can from now on, raise the FC to shock level at night instead of waiting until morning. The FC will work harder at night as the sun will not be eating the FC.

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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    I wouldn't add DE yet. You will be backwashing like crazy. I would save that for more towards the end.

    Also, are you brushing? Brushing plays a huge part in moving your slam along.
    16x32 IG rectangular 21,800k new vinyl liner 2014, Triton II TR 50 sand Filter, Pentair 3/4 hsp whisperflow pump, 3 returns, TF100 test kit w/speedstir. Maytronics s 300i robot.

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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    Welcome, jbs, and kudos on your new family member.

    Since you're new, I just want to reiterate a few things to ake sure you've "got it" so you can put your slam to bed and enjoy some r&r

    I recovered a black water swamp (20 wheelbarrows of leaves) a few years back on a foreclosure I'd bought.

    The sad fact is that to keep progressing it, you have to hit it hard enough to avoid stalls or you'll end up in a loop because you have to keep outpacing growth, which is hard when there's debris consuming the FC. Its the weekend, so maybe you can break its back and turn the tables with the following tips/plan: (forgive me if you already know these things) it might sound like more work, but I think a bit of dedicated time this weekend will actually reduce your work, so its in tat spirit that I'm writing.

    1. Backwash any time your filter is 25% above clean pressure. In my pool, that's around 20 psi -- every pool is different. But if your running high, which I suspect you may be, the filter just isn't going to clear as well or as fast. With a lot of sediment, that can mean checking filter pressure several times a day, whether its you, wife, or relative you get to help

    2. Be sure to filter 24/7 until this is done.

    3. See if you can get some help to spool you on the leaf raking and get as much as humanly possible up. One thing I did to save my back was to use a "leaf gulper" that you attach to a hose and pole that creates Venturi effect and fills a net bag. I'll post a link for you. Amazon.com : Universal Leaf Gulper Pool Vacuum : Swimming Pool Pressure Cleaners : Patio, Lawn Garden

    4. Most importantly, gotta try not to let your FC drop even a little below your effective slam rate...emphasis on effective. See, if your slam evel is 16, and drops to 15 in an hour, and you dose four hours later, you've only slammed 25% of the time...you're adding the equivalent of 3 days to length of slam.

    To keep visible progression going, I would dose a few ppm higher than slam (eg closer to mustard shock level, but under mustard shock level) and see how long that was holding in the sun. That helped me dial in my check times while staying a bit above slam. So after the weekend, if you're at work, if its possible to teach your wife just the FC test and amount to dose, things would progress much faster. You don't want to blast the liner, but liners usually take way more abuse than this from those who use weekly pool services and just bomb it once a week and toddle off (not that they're right to do so...our levels are more conservative, though in that sense.)

    5. Before you try to vac with the pool hose, you might wish to partially close the main drain if you have one to help the sediment settle on the floor and to have the skimmer clearing the top part of the water. Once your top layers have cleared a bit (this wont happen when raking...this will be a few days later, also once FC isn't losing much) if you then shut the pump down for one night and vac to waste slowly in am, you're not as likely to get clogs from vacuuming blind, etc.

    6. You might also need to check and clean out your pump basket frequently -- moreso when vacuuming. Stuff will get stuck in there and impede filtration. It took a good few tries in our case to vacuum and it was toward the end of the process. I'll post a pick so you get a sense.

    Hang in there and call in some favors to get help so you can relax and enjoy your new pool. TFP will then keep you in the clear and you'll never ever have to do this again

    Cheers to clear!
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    In ground extended Grecian, 22,000 gal, Hayward 220t sand filter, vinyl liner, dolphin m4 supreme.
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    Swampwoman's Avatar
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    Re: New guy - first post - I need help if this pool is getting used before winter

    Update: You also have a second option possibly that in my case wasn't recommended due to high water table.

    You could rent a trash pump from somewhere like Harbor Freight this weekend to try to get much of the sludge off the bottom as possible, refill after a partial pump off has got the worst of it, saving some of the tedious raking labour, then finishing up the slam. Just a thought
    In ground extended Grecian, 22,000 gal, Hayward 220t sand filter, vinyl liner, dolphin m4 supreme.
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