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Thread: Broken Laterals Possibly

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    Broken Laterals Possibly

    I am having some filtering issues, and have a quick question.

    Is it possible to have broken laterals *and* not also have sand being returned into the pool as a result?

    I know the general consensus is that you don't really ever need to replace your sand in your sand filter. A yearly deep cleaning or two should be all you need. I'm at a loss though and wondering if I need to change my sand, because I'm still having return issues even after a deep cleaning. Doing a shock cycle also never really raises my filter pressure enough to the point where I would expect to perform a backwash, which leads me to believe it's not really filtering well (which is evident from the color of my pool - chemicals and balance are fine, water is clear but constant green).

    If I had damaged laterals or filter issue, wouldn't I also get sand in my pool from those broken laterals? Because I don't have sand in the pool at all, so just want to confirm that it's not worth the effort of wet vac'ing all the sand out of my filter to inspect the laterals.
    18' round AG vinyl | avg. 3'9" deep | ~7,600 gallons
    Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter, Model S166T | Hayward 1hp Pump

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    RonsPlc's Avatar
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    Re: Broken Laterals Possibly

    If the water is clear, but green, and you don't have any clouds billowing up when you brush the bottom, and sides, it is usually Iron in the water.
    14600 gal Intex 24' Round 52" deep AG Pool (Heavily Modified)
    200lb sand filter w/2 speed 1.5/0.5hp pump
    Stenner 45MHP10 Liquid Chlorine (well... bleach) Injector. Borates added.
    K-2006 test kit w/Speedstir
    Pool School - PoolMath - HIGHLY Recommended Test Kits

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    Re: Broken Laterals Possibly

    Quote Originally Posted by RonsPlc View Post
    If the water is clear, but green, and you don't have any clouds billowing up when you brush the bottom, and sides, it is usually Iron in the water.
    That was my thought as well. My pool was fine and clear the first half of this season, and then slowly got progressively worse. Not sure how iron would have gotten added to the water since I didn't do any new water addition from the city water supply. Unless the iron from the original fill-up at the start of the season just takes a while to take hold and manifest in the green water.

    Any suggestions on a product for removing the iron? The guy at the local pool store gave me a bottle of Phoenix Super Erace (1 bottle good for 10k gallons, my pool is roughly 7600 gallons). Issue with the product is that it explicitly states it requires pH between 7.5-7.8 to be effective, which can be hard to truly nail the exact pH with a drop test. I thought I was around 7.5, but added enough baking soda to raise the pH by 0.1 in hopes of getting closer to that "safe zone" of 7.5-7.8 for this product.

    I added the product and then within the hour, I check the pH again and my drop test showed a pH of roughly 7.2 Not sure if the Phoenix Super Erace lowered the pH or something else, but that product didn't seem to make any difference. So I really can't tell if that was because my pH wasn't in the specific zone, or because iron wasn't my issue in the first place.

    Have any recommendations of a product to use that wouldn't require knowing such a precise pH window?
    18' round AG vinyl | avg. 3'9" deep | ~7,600 gallons
    Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter, Model S166T | Hayward 1hp Pump

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    RonsPlc's Avatar
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    Re: Broken Laterals Possibly

    I am giving this a bump... maybe someone that knows better than I can help you out here.
    I do know that well water is usually worse for containing iron than city water is though.
    14600 gal Intex 24' Round 52" deep AG Pool (Heavily Modified)
    200lb sand filter w/2 speed 1.5/0.5hp pump
    Stenner 45MHP10 Liquid Chlorine (well... bleach) Injector. Borates added.
    K-2006 test kit w/Speedstir
    Pool School - PoolMath - HIGHLY Recommended Test Kits

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    Re: Broken Laterals Possibly

    Quote Originally Posted by RonsPlc View Post
    I am giving this a bump... maybe someone that knows better than I can help you out here.
    I do know that well water is usually worse for containing iron than city water is though.
    Thanks for the bump. I'm on city water not well, and we've never had iron issues in past years (which, of course, doesn't mean the city water hasn't changed this year to cause the issues).

    For now, I'm going to just run through another SLAM cycle to be safe and vacuum to waste. If it keeps happening, I'll vac out the sand, inspect the filter equipment and replace with new sand.

    Thanks.
    18' round AG vinyl | avg. 3'9" deep | ~7,600 gallons
    Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter, Model S166T | Hayward 1hp Pump

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Broken Laterals Possibly

    If you've deep cleaned the filter and you don't have sand returning to the pool, I wouldn't worry about removing the sand.

    Does the gauge go to zero when the pump is off?
    What is the filter pressure running?

    Can you post a full set of test results?

    Can you give us a list of what all you've added to the pool?

    If you haven't added any water to the pool then you wouldn't suddenly get iron in it. Unless of course you store iron bars in your pool.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: Broken Laterals Possibly

    PSI gauge seems fine. It settles to 0 when the pump is off, and runs around 12-13 PSI when the pump is on normally. I usually add a little DE powder until it runs around 14-15 PSI to aid in the sand filtration (or at least try to). I can't give you readings as of today because I am waiting on some chemical resupplies for my TF-100 kit as I ran out of the drop test solution for chlorine.

    My last readings where as follows though.

    pH 7.5
    TA 70
    CYA 45
    CH 50
    CC 0

    (It is above ground vinyl pool, so I'm not super worried about CH). I'm leaving the FC readings off because they arent super useful since my last reading was after a shock)

    The only chemicals I add to the pool are 12.5% liquid chlorine, borax and baking soda. That is in addition to the Phoenix Super Erace mentioned above, that was only added (1 qt) a single time to see if it was an iron issue. Other than that, I do not / have not added any other chemicals to my pool since 2009 when I found this site and the BBB / SLAM methods.
    18' round AG vinyl | avg. 3'9" deep | ~7,600 gallons
    Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter, Model S166T | Hayward 1hp Pump

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Broken Laterals Possibly

    Sounds like you're doing things right.

    When you deep cleaned the filter, did the sand look and act ok?

    You could have a problem with the spider gasket bypassing the sand and going straight to the return. It may be worth taking the top off it and looking at the gasket and sealing surface.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: Broken Laterals Possibly

    Just an aside.....you raise pH with borax....not baking soda.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: Broken Laterals Possibly

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler View Post
    Sounds like you're doing things right.

    When you deep cleaned the filter, did the sand look and act ok?

    You could have a problem with the spider gasket bypassing the sand and going straight to the return. It may be worth taking the top off it and looking at the gasket and sealing surface.
    Can you elaborate on that a bit more? The sand looked fine to me. The same as it does every other time I have opened it up to deep clean it. Are you referring to a specific gasket on the multi-port valve head I should check? If so which? How could the water bypass the sand completely if it was a gasket problem? Not sure I fully follow.

    If you mean just the main large o-ring gasket that forms the seal when the multi-port valve head and seated and clamped with the collar, I can take it off again and verify, but it was in good shape and properly seated when I re-installed it to my remembrance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh View Post
    Just an aside.....you raise pH with borax....not baking soda.
    right my mistake, I flipped the 2. Borax for raising TA
    18' round AG vinyl | avg. 3'9" deep | ~7,600 gallons
    Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter, Model S166T | Hayward 1hp Pump

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Broken Laterals Possibly

    Inside the multiport valve are partitions and there is a gasket (spider is pretty descriptive) that sits over the partitions and as you turn the valve it opens and closes different paths through the valve. One of those positions is bypass and it is just a short circuit between the inlet and outlet of the valve so it completely bypasses the sand. If the spider gasket is leaking it could leak water directly from inlet to outlet therefore bypassing the sand with most of the water.

    Normally when they leak, they will leak some water out the waste port as well so the problem is apparent. However, it could leak just between two other paths and not leak out the waste port.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: Broken Laterals Possibly

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler View Post
    Inside the multiport valve are partitions and there is a gasket (spider is pretty descriptive) that sits over the partitions and as you turn the valve it opens and closes different paths through the valve. One of those positions is bypass and it is just a short circuit between the inlet and outlet of the valve so it completely bypasses the sand. If the spider gasket is leaking it could leak water directly from inlet to outlet therefore bypassing the sand with most of the water.

    Normally when they leak, they will leak some water out the waste port as well so the problem is apparent. However, it could leak just between two other paths and not leak out the waste port.
    Interesting. I definitely don't have leakage out the waste port, but like you said, that doesn't mean there isn't leakage between the intake and the return ports. To inspect and get at those gaskets I assume would require opening up the multi-port from the top via the screws, correct? Or is it accessible from the bottom side via screws as well?
    18' round AG vinyl | avg. 3'9" deep | ~7,600 gallons
    Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter, Model S166T | Hayward 1hp Pump

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Broken Laterals Possibly

    Yeah, you have to remove all those screws around the top. Also if I remember correctly, if you need a new gasket it comes permanently attached to the diverter so you have to buy the diverter to get it.

    Be sure to mark the alignment of the top and body so you can put it back the same way.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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