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Thread: Pool Quote Feedback

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Pool Quote Feedback

    I just got a quote back for a pool and I was wondering if you guys could you please give me your feedback on any opinions you have on the setup?

    Type:
    Freeform

    Pool Specs:
    Deep end width 16 ft
    Shallow end width 20 ft
    Length 34 ft
    Shallow depth 3-5 ft
    Deep end depth 8 ft
    Perimeter 93 ft
    Surface area 455
    Gallonage 16210

    Here are the options I am getting:

    Cleaning system:
    A&A in floor cleaning system with cam driven switchable pressure heads
    Leaf Vac
    1 venturi skimmer rated at 50-70 GPM
    1 A&A AVSC Channel Drain

    Auto water leveler

    SWG:
    4PSC IC40

    Lighting:
    2 IntelliBrite LED pool lights

    Automation:
    4p 4PSC IC40 Wireless operation
    4 Aux Wireless controller
    Intellitch Valve Actuator

    Water feature:
    50 sq ft Grotto Waterfall
    2 jumping rocks on deep end

    Decking:
    Exposed aggregate concrete
    Or
    Acrylic Faux flagstone
    (Haven’t decided which on I want to go for yet.)

    Pool surface:
    Black pearl pebble tec

    Tile:
    Blue Dot 6x6 tile around the water line

    Filter:
    The filter listed in the quote is:
    Modular media 600 microban filter sta-rite

    but I think It’s this product:
    System:3 Modular Media Filters

    Pump:
    VS 3050 Variable speed pump

    A couple of questions I have are:

    The skimmer is rated at 50-70 GPM, do I need more than one for this size pool?

    They only put one drain on the quote as well, which is rated at 225 GPM, do I need more than one of these too?

    The sales person wasn’t currently able to tell me the GPM requirement for the grotto but said that I wouldn’t be able to run the cleaning system and grotto on the same pump at the same time. Would there be any reason why I would want to do this?

    I was wondering how often I need to keep the skimmer on? The sales guy said as long as I want it to be on but what do you guys recommend?

    With the Intellitouch I should be able to automate everything separately correct? Can I change the pump speed with the different systems? Would there be anything I would need to do that this system wouldn’t support? They said they were going setup separate valves for the Skimmer, water feature, and cleaning system.

    Because of the back and forth about the in floor cleaning system they are going to run a separate line for a vacuum cleaning system. I thought this would be a good way to protect myself in the future in case the in floor cleaning system doesn’t pan out. Should I wait until I have an issue to rewire the Intellitouch to work with the vacuum cleaning system or should I get the 8p 8PSC IC40 and have them set it up now?

    Thanks in advance for all of your help on these questions!
    Austin
    18,000 gal, 32x16 kidney IG Pool. Vinyl Liner, AutoPilot Dig-220 SWG with SC-60 Cell, Bromine, 360 Sq ft Solar Panels, Set temp = 88 degrees.

  2. Back To Top    #2
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    Welcome to TFP!

    I would get the 8p 8PSC IC40. You will always end up wanting more relays than you think you want and it is much simpler to get the extra relays installed now.

    The IntelliFlo VS 3050 pump is a great pump.

    One skimmer is sufficient, but it is far more common to have two or more. If you have two you can go twice as long before cleaning them out.

    A "single" drain is presumably a dual drain plumbed to a single pipe. With the new drain safety laws it is much simpler to install dual drains with the required separation than it is to jump through the hoops required to make a true single drain safe.

    The only reason to run the grotto and the in floor cleaning system at the same time is if you want to leave the grotto running all the time. It is less expensive both now and in the future to set it up the way they propose.

    Typically, with an IntelliFlo, you would run the pump on a very low speed most of the time, and only turn the speed up to run the grotto or the in floor system. The skimmer should normally be on the entire time the pump is running.

    Pebble Tec is wonderful, but do check that you don't mind the slightly rough feeling. Some people prefer Pebble Sheen because it is smoother and thus easier on your feet.

    The IntelliTouch will be able to run the pump at four different speeds, automatically switching speeds depending on what mode you are in, giving you a lot of flexibility to program things different ways.

    Make sure you are getting a very large filter. You will probably want a high flow rate option for the grotto, and having an especially large filter will make that simpler.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  3. Back To Top    #3
    stever's Avatar
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    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by bymyhand
    The skimmer is rated at 50-70 GPM, do I need more than one for this size pool?

    Because of the back and forth about the in floor cleaning system they are going to run a separate line for a vacuum cleaning system. I thought this would be a good way to protect myself in the future in case the in floor cleaning system doesn’t pan out. Should I wait until I have an issue to rewire the Intellitouch to work with the vacuum cleaning system or should I get the 8p 8PSC IC40 and have them set it up now?
    Welcome! Sounds like a great pool. Jason answered all of your questions, but a I'll add a little:

    With the low pump speeds that are more common these days I am in favor of fewer (one) skimmer. I have one and it doesn't really suck much surface 'stuff' under 30 gpm. With the grotto, it'll be pulling a lot of water at times, you might link a valve for the bottom drin witht he grotto valve on the automation so it opens both skimmer and bottom when the grotto is on and only the skimmer otherwise. Put a lot of thought into the location of the skimmer, as at low GPM, the prevailing winds have more to do with where surface bugs and dirt go than curculation from the returns. Put the skimmer downwind first and then shift it a little toward the direction the returns will be pushing the water. Of course keep the distance to the pump in mind also....

    I have an automated valve for the suction side cleaner and love it. I run the cleaner at night at 15 gpm so it'll never conflict with the gpm for the solar during the day. The pump is nearly silent -- equipment outside our bedroom and I have to strain to hear it (and I'm pretty picky about noise). If I were you I'd put in a manual valve and automate later if needed.

    Good luck with the build!
    Steve
    Pool: 625 SF Free-Form In-Ground Shotcrete Pool w/7.5' dia spa.(8 jets), 24" raised bond beam (22,500 gal)
    Pentair Equip: Intelliflo VF Pump, MasterTemp 400 Heater, IC40 SWG, Quad DE 100 Filter
    Automation: IntelliTouch i7+3 (+ extender panel), 6 Jandy Automated Valves (S, R, Spa Bypass, Solar, Cleaner, Spillway)
    Other: 75% Solar, Kreepy Kruiser Cleaner, Tan Hip-Hop Diving Board (a bit curved) on 606 Cantilever Base (SR Smith)
    Links: [TFP Pool Build Thread] - [TFP Landscaping Thread]

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    I really appreciate all the advice you guys have given!

    With the low pump speeds that are more common these days I am in favor of fewer (one) skimmer. I have one and it doesn't really suck much surface 'stuff' under 30 gpm.
    Does this mean I should get one or two skimmers? My skimmer is advertised as "pumping 8-10 GPM will equate to 50-70 GPM through the skimmer". If i put two I would need 16-20 GPM and I would get 100-140 GPM through the skimmer. Seems like a lot of water going through the skimmer. I was thinking more towards getting two (hopefully it would help with the big stuff getting to the bottom that the infloor has the hardest time with).

    I am kinda curious as to when you turn on the drain, skimmer, cleaning system, and grotto? From what i am reading you need to recycle the water once a day and that would entail sucking the water from the drain through the pump, filter, SWG and back to the returns (pool). while that is going the skimmer should be on. Also the recommended time to cycle the water is about 8 hours. Now, do i run the skimmer alone at any other time during a normal day? I would then need to use the cleaning system once a week to clean the pool. Again the skimmer, drain, and cleaning system will be going. Finally when i want to use the grotto i will need the drain, (to get the water from somewhere), the grotto, and the skimmer. So it seems like I will be pushing a lot of water through the system during the cleaning system and while the grotto in on. At all other times the GPM should be pretty low. Does this sound right to you guys?

    I want to put my pool equipment further away then my PB initially suggested. What are the issues with the pool equipment's distance from the pool. Is a more powerful pump needed. Is there a calculation that you use for distance?

    Will the extra drain work better then one with my infloor cleaning system?

    Here is the drain they quoted me:
    http://www.unblockabledrain.com/

    I am going to have a secondary cleaning system option ran while its being built but i am reading that the best are the robots, second is pressure, and third is suction. So i was thinking of running a dummy pressure line instead of a suction one. Or should i just not run any and just get a robot if the infloor doesn't work good enough. Price is not really that big of an issue. I am looking for ease of operation, little work on my part, and something that does a good job cleaning.

    Yea we have already checked out if we liked how rough the pebble tec was. We both didn't have a problem with it.

    thanks again guys!!
    Austin
    18,000 gal, 32x16 kidney IG Pool. Vinyl Liner, AutoPilot Dig-220 SWG with SC-60 Cell, Bromine, 360 Sq ft Solar Panels, Set temp = 88 degrees.

  5. Back To Top    #5
    stever's Avatar
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    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by bymyhand
    Does this mean I should get one or two skimmers? My skimmer is advertised as "pumping 8-10 GPM will equate to 50-70 GPM through the skimmer". If i put two I would need 16-20 GPM and I would get 100-140 GPM through the skimmer. Seems like a lot of water going through the skimmer. I was thinking more towards getting two (hopefully it would help with the big stuff getting to the bottom that the infloor has the hardest time with). I don't know what they mean by 8-10 = 50-70 -- sounds like marketing mumbo-jumbo. One will suck more wather through it faster, thus sucking more off the surface. A big enough pool will need more than one because of the size and generally higher flow rates. While your pool sounds vert nice, it would not be considered large. You should plumb the bottom drains seperate from the skimmer so you can adjust a valve to pick up more flow from the bottom if you want (e.g. if running the grotto starts to suck too much from the skimmer alone and starts to pick up air).

    I am kinda curious as to when you turn on the drain, skimmer, cleaning system, and grotto? From what i am reading you need to recycle the water once a day and that would entail sucking the water from the drain through the pump, filter, SWG and back to the returns (pool). while that is going the skimmer should be on. Also the recommended time to cycle the water is about 8 hours. Now, do i run the skimmer alone at any other time during a normal day? I would then need to use the cleaning system once a week to clean the pool. Again the skimmer, drain, and cleaning system will be going. Finally when i want to use the grotto i will need the drain, (to get the water from somewhere), the grotto, and the skimmer. So it seems like I will be pushing a lot of water through the system during the cleaning system and while the grotto in on. At all other times the GPM should be pretty low. Does this sound right to you guys? I'd have the skimmer (just an intake with a basket) 'on' all of the time and adjust the bottom drain intake as needed for flow for the grotto. I would have an automated valve controlling the grotto so you can turn this on when you want -- but not all of the time. You can contoll how much heat you loose from the grotto running and can minimize calcium buildup and evaporation when it is not running. The grotto gpm can be counted toward your 1 turnover/day. The pool is often set to run more than 8 hours. 8 hours is from the old school of one-speed pumps. You will be able to set a much lower rate and run for longer 10-12 hours to achieve 1 turn and less electric. If you anticipate very high flows for the grotto and only having it on for special occisions, you might use a second pump for the grotto that is not attached to the heat/filter/SWG. This will maximize the flow, but you will not be able to count this circulation toward your 1 turn per day.

    There seems to be a lot of things in pools that are a love/hate thing. Some people love them and some people hate them and it has to do with just about everything from filters, to cleaning systems, to SWGs. I chose the SWG because so many people came back and said they loved theirs and couldn't live without them. Also I am in AZ and from what I am reading they work better out here or other options don't work as well. I am really looking for a well balanced pool with the least amount of maintenance. Once you figure out how everything works and have a handle on the routine maintenance, it should be mostly love with just a little hate sprinkled in. SWG will make the day to day stuff a little easier, but will not save $$. You will still need to pay attention to the pool on a routine basis. For example, my autofill stuck in the closed position after not needing to auto-fill all winter and as soon as the sun came out, I lost enough water to almost get below the skimmer in a couple weeks time.

    For the calcium build up won't the salt help with that because of the softened water? We have very hard water down here and its always an issue. Does not help. Water softeners do some sort of ion exchange thing with the salt that won't happen in your pool. Keep the pH well maintained to minimize the draining/refilling.

    I want to put my pool equipment further away then my PB initially suggested. What are the issues with the pool equipment's distance from the pool. Is a more powerful pump needed. Is there a calculation that you use for distance? Keep it as close as you can for efficiency reasons. If you want it farther, upsize all of those pipes to compensate.
    Steve
    Pool: 625 SF Free-Form In-Ground Shotcrete Pool w/7.5' dia spa.(8 jets), 24" raised bond beam (22,500 gal)
    Pentair Equip: Intelliflo VF Pump, MasterTemp 400 Heater, IC40 SWG, Quad DE 100 Filter
    Automation: IntelliTouch i7+3 (+ extender panel), 6 Jandy Automated Valves (S, R, Spa Bypass, Solar, Cleaner, Spillway)
    Other: 75% Solar, Kreepy Kruiser Cleaner, Tan Hip-Hop Diving Board (a bit curved) on 606 Cantilever Base (SR Smith)
    Links: [TFP Pool Build Thread] - [TFP Landscaping Thread]

  6. Back To Top    #6
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    Having the pump closer to the pool is more efficient, but the difference is very small for reasonable distances. If you are moving it 10 feet then don't worry about it at all. If you are moving it 100 feet then worry a little.

    That is an interesting drain. I hadn't seen it before. Since it has all the certifications, it should be fine. The law has gotten very rigorous drain safety this year.

    There are many different ways to setup the pump programming. However, "Also the recommended time to cycle the water is about 8 hours" this is not a useful guideline with a variable speed pump. Basically what you want to do is to determine how much you are going to be running the grotto and in floor system and what their GPM requirements are, and that will determine how much additional pump run time you need. If you are running either the in floor system or the grotto every day, the additional pump run time should be at the lowest possible speed. The higher flow rates while using the in floor system or the grotto will take care of making the skimmer(s) work even if you have two or three skimmers, as long as you run at the higher rate at some point every day.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  7. Back To Top    #7

    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    Will having just the skimmer on mean that water is going through the Filter and SWG? From what i am seeing, the pluming that is going into the skimmer is basically an extra return. So the water has to come from somewhere right? And that would be the drain, right? So that would mean the drain and the skimmer would be on at all times and while anything else was on?

    The SWG has a 10k hour rating on it. Would keeping the skimmer on all the time mean that it would go out in only a year? Or is that rating based on an average GPM going through the SWG?

    Thanks!
    Austin
    18,000 gal, 32x16 kidney IG Pool. Vinyl Liner, AutoPilot Dig-220 SWG with SC-60 Cell, Bromine, 360 Sq ft Solar Panels, Set temp = 88 degrees.

  8. Back To Top    #8

    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    Here is the info on the skimmer they quoted me:

    http://www.nauticapools.com/uploads/A_A ... kimmer.pdf

    From looking online this doesn't seem to be your average skimmer...

    Thanks again guys for all of your help!!
    Austin
    18,000 gal, 32x16 kidney IG Pool. Vinyl Liner, AutoPilot Dig-220 SWG with SC-60 Cell, Bromine, 360 Sq ft Solar Panels, Set temp = 88 degrees.

  9. Back To Top    #9

    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    Also back to future possible cleaning options. Why would i need a booster pump for a future Polaris cleaning system. Can't i just have this piped to the current pump i have and then open the valve and increase the pump speed when i want to use it? Seems like I would do the same thing for the grotto or infloor cleaning system.

    Austin
    18,000 gal, 32x16 kidney IG Pool. Vinyl Liner, AutoPilot Dig-220 SWG with SC-60 Cell, Bromine, 360 Sq ft Solar Panels, Set temp = 88 degrees.

  10. Back To Top    #10
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    You have a very unusual skimmer, that is a return and also skims. A normal skimmer draws in water for the pump, but yours draws in water that then goes right back to the poll.

    The main drain and either the skimmer or some other return (grotto, in floor system, normal return), must be on when the pump is running.

    You can run some pressure side cleaners from the pump, but many others require a booster pump.

    The SWG is only really on when you need chlorine, not all the time that the pump is running. So SWG lifetime depends on how much chlorine you use, not on the pump runtime.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  11. Back To Top    #11
    Lershac's Avatar
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    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    The SWG is only really on when you need chlorine, not all the time that the pump is running. So SWG lifetime depends on how much chlorine you use, not on the pump runtime.
    I have read this many times, but the life of a SWG seems to always be quoted in HOURS of run time! Why cant they rate them by the amount of chlorine they can generate?
    (DIY):16K Gal 20X30 rectangular IG Gunite, w/spa, CCP 520 filter,2 Pentair VS pumps, 400KBTU Pentair gas heater, Heat Pump for cooling, **update5.25.2013** added an intellichem with acid pump that will control existing SWG. My Build Thread Here

  12. Back To Top    #12

    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by bymyhand
    Here is the info on the skimmer they quoted me:

    http://www.nauticapools.com/uploads/A_A ... kimmer.pdf

    From looking online this doesn't seem to be your average skimmer...

    Thanks again guys for all of your help!!
    Austin
    I've never seen that design. Looks brilliant!

    Is Shasta building your pool?
    21' Leslies Beachland Ag Pool, 10,000 gallons, professionally installed (best money I ever spent) Hayward 16" sand filter w/Pentair two speed pump Fafco 4x20 solar heater,Aqua Trol RJ. Borates added. Hard plumbed.

  13. Back To Top    #13

    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    Yea, I am working with them and I think I am ready to move forward. Thanks for all of the help guys! I really appreciate it.

    Austin
    18,000 gal, 32x16 kidney IG Pool. Vinyl Liner, AutoPilot Dig-220 SWG with SC-60 Cell, Bromine, 360 Sq ft Solar Panels, Set temp = 88 degrees.

  14. Back To Top    #14
    stever's Avatar
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    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by bymyhand
    Here is the info on the skimmer they quoted me:

    http://www.nauticapools.com/uploads/A_A ... kimmer.pdf

    From looking online this doesn't seem to be your average skimmer...

    Thanks again guys for all of your help!!
    Austin
    Very interesting skimmer! It is a pressure-side skimmer. Note the suction line is OPTIONAL . I'd like to know how well this works. If somebody covers the return does it spit all of the collected bugs/dirt backwards into the pool?

    Steve
    Pool: 625 SF Free-Form In-Ground Shotcrete Pool w/7.5' dia spa.(8 jets), 24" raised bond beam (22,500 gal)
    Pentair Equip: Intelliflo VF Pump, MasterTemp 400 Heater, IC40 SWG, Quad DE 100 Filter
    Automation: IntelliTouch i7+3 (+ extender panel), 6 Jandy Automated Valves (S, R, Spa Bypass, Solar, Cleaner, Spillway)
    Other: 75% Solar, Kreepy Kruiser Cleaner, Tan Hip-Hop Diving Board (a bit curved) on 606 Cantilever Base (SR Smith)
    Links: [TFP Pool Build Thread] - [TFP Landscaping Thread]

  15. Back To Top    #15

    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    Austin - how did the pool build go? Did you end up with Shasta?

    Do tell, if you have a chance.

    thx!
    RawhideKid
    Phoenix, AZ (Goodyear actually)
    Pool finally complete!!! IG, 40,635 gallons w/2080 gallon spa with 16 jets. Pool is 40x21 ft with 10 ft deep end; two baja steps
    Pentair Cartridge filter - 520 SQ. PebbleSheen interior. 2 Pentair VS pumps. Pentair Intellichlor SWG
    4 deck jets, 2 bubblers, fake rock grotto/waterfall with wet steps. 3 surrounding half-pergola's with misters in future
    Sunken covered ramada with cabinets, fridge, and wood fireplace. (soon to have big screen TV)
    Basically, 14 years of planning on how to survive this blistering AZ summer!!! WAHOOOOO!!!!!!

  16. Back To Top    #16

    Join Date
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    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    I just saw this thread. The venturi skimmer is, IMHO, a gimmick and BS to boot. It is not physically possible for a venturi to provide better suction than a direct connection to suction side plumbing. Additionally, without a direct connection, pollen, as an example, would pass the basket and be shot into the pool, bypassing the filter. Don't you want more organics in the pool?

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

  17. Back To Top    #17

    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    The skimmer does work fine for the big stuff. In AZ, they put a skimmer sock on to catch the smaller stuff. They work fine but are generally a pain to maintain. Ive also never seen one without a suction line also attached but not usually on.
    15k diving pool. Originally built in 1979. Rebuilt, except shell in 2008. mini pebble, faux rock slide with jumping rock, 2 1hp whisperflo pumps, tr140 sand filter. Flagstone coping. raised wall with stack stone.

  18. Back To Top    #18

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    Re: Pool Quote Feedback

    That skimmer looks to be a glorified permanent PoolSkim, i.e., http://www.poolskim.com/ with the option to use as regular skimmer if it is plumbed so. I have two PoolSkims and I love them but there are a few cons to using them as separate additions vs built in but those can be outweighed by the pros in many situations. The PoolSkim cost ~ $100 US and has a big bag to collect large debris. Lots of small stuff too but not sure about pollen. Great for those of us who have lots of plant debris dropping or blowing into the pool and doggie hair too. A skimmer sock, on skimmer, would not hold nearly as much debris as the bag on pool skim but would catch pollen. I'm going to think about the pros and cons of using either option and then comment later when I have a bit more time.

    A new post coming soon about my SolarBreeze http://www.solar-breeze.com/ . Just for now I'm VERY IMPRESSED. Sorry, but I've only used it a couple of days and yesterday, Sunday, was Football from morning to late night so couldn't do any thinking or posting about pool.

    gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

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