First Pool and Glad I found You

[Holydoc]

This is my first pool and my first post. We are trying an above ground pool before we make the commitment to dig a huge whole in the ground for a permanent oasis. I will be sure to add a signature so that everyone will know what I am working on.
Also thank you for this forum and for PoolMath! I knew something was not right from the directions I was given, but reading here proved it for sure. I am glad I found you before something went wrong with my water.

I have a:

1. 19328 gallon above ground pool (27' x 54")
2. Cartridge Filter System
3. Two speed Opti-flo pump (Low - Off - High)
4. Pool has been up and used every day since mid-April (this is Florida. Water was a cool 72 deg at first.)

Chemical Test Results:

1. FC - 6 ppm
2. Ph - 7.8
3. TA - 100
4. CH - 200
5. CYA - 98

Temp of pool is 90 degrees.

The pool store said my water was perfect and to keep on going as I have for a perfect pool all year long. However I noticed something that bothered me. My CYA started at 50 ppm and now 3 months later, it has crept up to 98 ppm. I expressed my concern to the pool store since they had a safe range of 50 to 100 ppm. I stated that at this rate, I would be beyond the 100 ppm on my next visit. They just kind of shrugged it off, but it worried me since they had no "Magic way" of getting rid of this CYA once I was beyond their range.

That concern is how I found you! Now I understand the relationship between CYA and FC. I understand that my 3" pucks in my floater is what has caused this CYA to raise at such an alarming rate. I now understand that CH means nothing with a vinyl liner. I also understand that a partial (50% or more) pool drain may be in my future to get the CYA back down to a reasonable level.

So in the meantime, this is what I have done:
1) Replaced pucks with liquid chlorine
2) Purchased a Taylor K-2006 Test Kit
3) Purchased Algaecide 60 Plus - to help keep the algae from starting until I can get the CYA down

My plan is to add preventive Algaecide once a week until I can get the CYA down. I am in Florida where it rains daily. I am hoping that the rain will start diluting the CYA down at a reasonable rate. I know this is probably being too optimistic since I have a cartridge filter so no loss of CYA through backwash. If I find that is not happening then plan B is drain the pool down at least 50% and replace with fresh water. I hate to have to do Plan B since the pool is sparkling clear, no smell, and no algae. However I understand that what you cannot see may be worse than what you can.

Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions. This forum is a blessing indeed for us first timers who are trying to learn.

 

[needsajet]

Wow, that's the best first post I've ever seen!!! Welcome to TFP. Good to have you here

If you have any concerns about algae, just do the OCLT to ease your mind. Easy test. Pool School - Perform the Overnight FC Loss Test (OCLT)

To be even more sure of your CYA level of 100, try #9 on this page: Pool School - CYA (bet ya already have!)

You might want to bump your FC and keep it around FC 8-12 ppm, but other than that, it looks like you've done a tremendous job of learning and using the resources here at TFP. I'm sure the authors who have put so much time into writing those informative and concise articles really appreciate that.

 

[needsajet]

Do you have an overflow on your pool? I saw a cool trick the other day. The person used a garden hose with no metal end long enough to reach bottom of the pool, weighted down with a sock full of rocks. They stuffed the other end into the overflow, plugging the overflow with the garden hose. So when it rains, it's discharging treated water while the fresh lighter water sits on top. CYA diffuses slowly, so it works to retain fresh water and get rid of CYA laden water. Wouldn't work with the pump running, but if pump is off, this might be helpful for you.

A simpler way is to watch the weather, and pump or siphon water out before an incoming rainstorm.

Good luck with it!

 

[Holydoc]

needsajet,

Thank you for the compliment and all your help you give everyone here. I am truly impressed with all the time and effort this group gives everyone so freely.

Yes, you are correct. I did perform the OCLT last night and went from 6ppm to 5.5ppm. That is a GREAT way to tell if you have an algae problem.

Now I am testing the FC and PH every day to get an idea of:

1. How fast I am losing FC and thus how much liquid chlorine I must add a day to keep up the levels. (for instance it went from 5.5ppm yesterday morning to 4.5 ppm that evening.) Hoping for consistency.
2. How fast and in which direction is my PH changing. My goal is to ensure that it is stable as a rock around 7.5

I had not thought of draining the pool down before a rainstorm to dilute it some. What I was doing was draining it down to the skimmer after a rainstorm. Does it matter which one is performed?

Unfortunately, I do not have an overflow. Also I leave my pump running on LOW (I have dual speeds LOW-OFF-HIGH) 24/7. I use the HIGH speed to sweep, when I add chemicals, and to run the little shark once a week.

I will bump my FC up a couple ppm per your advice. Thanks so much for your time and the sharing of your knowledge. I want this pool to be a positive experience.

 

[needsajet]

No, it doesn't matter that much. Draining before rain only helps a tiny bit. A 2" drain/refill with 48" depth removes about 4.2% of the CYA, vs. 4% for fill 2" and then drain 2"

It's because draining first is removing more concentrated water, but it's probably not worth the risk on the weather forecast. Getting CYA out is the main thing, so both are great.

If the drain water is drawn from the skimmer, then when draining after rain, make sure the new fresh water is mixed and not sitting on top, by running the pump for a little while before draining.

 

[Holydoc]

needs,

I forgot to move up to FC 7ppm tonight. I realized it once it was too dark to worry about. I will definitely increase it tomorrow.

So here are my findings:

1. FC dropped from 5.5 ppm to 4.5 ppm during the day with light activity (i.e., two swimmers for about 2 hours). Being 91 degrees and in direct light at all times (no trees), this is not that large a loss to worry about. This should be easy to maintain if it continues to lose chlorine at a constant rate.
2. FC only dropped 0.5 ppm during the night. That is a good sign that we are algae free especially with the small drop in FC during the day.
3. pH seems to be holding between 7.8 and 7.6. This is where I want it. Variance could be my testing techniques (or eye sight). I will improve this technique as I do it more.

So I did the entire barrage of tests using my Taylor test kit. I was very slow and meticulous about the tests (unlike the first set of tests I posted where I rushed a bit through so that I could post for you. Here are my findings:

1. FC - 4.5 ppm - Using PoolMath, I raised back to 6ppm this evening. I really meant to raise to 7ppm as suggested, but I.. uh.. forgot.
2. CC - 0 ppm - Yay! Another indication that the pool is algae free.
3. pH - 7.6 - This is different than the 7.8 it was, but I suspect that was from novice testing.
4. TA - 130 - Not sure why this went up. Again lets blame the novice. Not sure if it hurts anything to have it a bit high. I will let it fall naturally to the correct range
5. CH - 210 - Not that far off from what I test before.
6. CYA - 80 - Now I know this is from inexperience testing. I actually think this value is closer to the actual value than my first test. I determined that I could not see the black dot when I could move my head slightly back and forth and not be able to make out the dot. I performed the test in the daylight with my body blocking the sun while placing drops in the test vial that was sitting on a high table.

So the current plan is to continue on with the following routine (stole directly from this site). That is after I raise the FC to 7ppm (Thanks to this forum):

1. Continue to test FC daily when I get home from work to ensure chlorine loss is at a constant rate.
2. Continue to test pH daily until I am confident that it is stable and I am no longer seeing a variance (i.e., I become more than a novice)
3. Test CYA,TA, and CH on the weekend to see how they are progressing as I try to lower all these values slowly to more reasonable levels (and to remove my novice ways).

If anyone has any advice, comments, or just want to give me a push; don't hesitate to post. Everyone here has so much more knowledge than me, so anything you post is valuable to me (and hopefully someone else).

Thanks in advance!

 

[needsajet]

I can't say much other than "You Got This!"

About all I can say is that FC loss may not be as predictable as you're thinking now. Random things happen like leaves, bird poo, critters and bugs. Cloudy day vs. sunny day. And of course bather load. But you'll get a really good sense of that from testing and knowing what you're putting in the pool and why.

You may want to read more about TA. It's quite interesting to OCD types like us It will come down gradually as you acidify to stay in range. There's ways to do it quickly, or at medium speed, or just let it happen. From my meagre chemistry and interpretation of what I've read, it appears that the total acid you will use to lower TA doesn't vary much. Lower TA primarily reduces the frequency of acid additions, which can be a convenience factor. TA goes up because of incoming TA in fill water, followed by evaporation, or from chemical additions. It goes down if it rains and water is drained, or by lowering pH.

I think you'll find a sweet spot where TA and pH remain stable, but that may take a while. With frequent testing, you'll sense it getting close.

KimKats, one of the experts here, would give you a gold star, that's for sure!

 

[Holydoc]

KimKats, one of the experts here, would give you a gold star, that's for sure!

No gold star for me. I am just a student who likes to totally engross himself into a subject. I am years away from being anywhere near the experts that roam this forum.

BTW... you nailed me with the OCD comment. Here it is 10:35pm CST, and I just raised my FC to 7ppm because I could not go to bed thinking I had done something wrong or incomplete. Before long, I am going to have to purchase more reagents for my Taylor kit, and I just bought it! Any recommendations of a good place to purchase reagents?

 

[pooldv]

TFTestkits.net is our fave test kit place.

 

[needsajet]

pooldv beat me to it. Good prices and customer service that way. The owner of TFTestkits subsidizes TFP as well. Hang onto your original Taylor dropper bottles cause I think there's one refill that doesn't fit the case, but otherwise, they are entirely compatible and original Taylor sauces.

 

[Holydoc]

TFTestkits.net is our fave test kit place.

Pooldv,

Thanks for the link. I know at this rate, I will need to order reagent soon.

Discovered something about the FAS-DPD test I did not realize. I was trying to save reagent, so I only used one scoop of the powder. My water test yielded a FC of 6.5 ppm. I knew this had to be off since I was shooting for 8ppm, so I repeated the test immediately using two scoops. The FC was 8.0ppm, much closer to what I thought it should be. The Extended Testing section on this board state:

Using the small spoon shaped end of the dipper, add one heaping dipper, or two level dippers, of R-0870 and swirl to mix.

The notes section then state:

The exact amount of R-0870 powder used is not critical. The goal is to add more than you really need rather than using too little. Using too little R-0870 powder can throw off the results of the test. You need to use enough to bind to all of the chlorine that is present. Adding extra, within reason, has no effect. At very high FC levels it is likely that you will need to use more than the normal amount.

Problem I had was that, as a newbie, there needs to be more clearer directions on when I should or shouldn't use two scoops. In my case, it is best to use two scoops and be safe than to use one scoop and get a bad reading. Maybe the directions should say if you are shooting for a FC of 5 or below, 1 scoop of powder should be sufficient. If your FC goal is above 5ppm, we recommend using at least two scoops.

I know some of this stuff is second nature to most of you. However being a total newbie (with OCD, thanks needsajet!), sometimes you need to put it in neon lights on the marque!

Just for completeness, I tested my water when I returned from work (97 degree outside and pool was up to 93 degrees). My FC was at 4ppm. This was a drop from 7ppm. After 2 hours of vacuuming (and playing) in the pool while filling it from evaporation, my final FC reading was 3ppm. I modified the FC after dusk to 8ppm. pH was 7.7 (not quite 7.6 or 7.8).

I have a couple goals in mind:
1) Find a happy setting for FC where it will stay within its CYA/FC range during the day
2) Get an approximate amount of Chlorine to add per day to keep it in this range so that I can have my wife add that average amount everyday while I am gone TDY for a week. I feel that if it is too complicated (ie., test FC, use PoolMath to calculate amount of Chlorine, then add Chlorine), she may bulk at keeping the pool up. However if I say for example, add 1 quart a day, I think she will do just fine while I am gone.

Ideas? Comments?

 

[needsajet]

That's an excellent way to do it. The key to success for that method is what you learn about the trends. Cloudy weeks vs. sunny weeks. High bather load vs. no swimming. Effects of temperature. As long as your method keeps FC above the bare minimum for your CYA, you'll be fine. Also, brush every week. This is almost equally important.

You will need to migrate to a bit higher level of FC, to cover the unknowns, and rest assured that is entirely OK. I'm not sure how far along you are with understanding how low the active chorine is when using TFPC methods. You can go well above target and not experience any ill effects whatsoever. That's the beauty of CYA used properly. For example, TFPers commonly take their FC up to around half the shock level before a kid's birthday party, to absorb high bather load contamination. No one notices this because when this is properly done (commensurate with the CYA level) the so-called "harsh" part of chlorine (the active chlorine), remains well below the level you'd experience in a well-run commercial or institutional indoor pool at 1 ppm FC but without CYA.

- - - Updated - - -

It will always be better to test regularly and dose accordingly, so I can't say your plan is the best way to do it, but we all recognize that life comes first! You may find that your family gets very engaged in it all when they see the safe, comfortable, sparkly clean, odor-free water, week after week.

 

[pooldv]

Thanks for the feedback on the testing instructions.

 

[MarianParoo]

Needs is right on target!

 

[Holydoc]

You will need to migrate to a bit higher level of FC, to cover the unknowns, and rest assured that is entirely OK.

Needsajet,

Thanks again for your advice and encouragement.

Last night FC was 8ppm. This morning it was at 7ppm (not real happy about that drop, but still reasonable). Tested after work it was at 4.5ppm. With a minimum recommended FC of 6ppm for a CYA of 80, I am going to have to migrate a bit higher as you stated on my starting FC. I will set it on 10ppm tonight and see where we are after work tomorrow.

I also tested the pH and it was as predicted 7.8. Watching the daily rise with adding more than 150oz of chlorine a day, the pH tends to creep up 0.1 steps with each addition. I purchased Muriatic Acid for the first time and will reset the pH to 7.4 tomorrow once I get off work and know the FC is below 10ppm.

Good news today was that I discovered my Pool store sells 10.5% Chlorine for $1.65/gallon. They also sell replacement reagents for my Taylor kit at comparable prices to Amazon and TFTestkits (if I include shipping). So the pool store can still be useful.

Hope I am not boring everyone with my everyday adventures in learning, but I just wanted to say this stuff out loud in a room full of experts in case I start thinking wrong. Better to be corrected now by the wise than when my pool is green and full of frogs.

Thanks for your patience and help. Now I will find out what happens when it rains. /looks up at the clouds

 

[needsajet]

Hey, it's great to see how well you're going. That 1 ppm FC drop is worth keeping an eye on. Remember the OCLT as a diagnostic tool. In a clean pool with no algae and no incoming source of organic contamination, there is no measurable night-time loss of FC.

Once you settle into a range for FC, chlorine will not cause much, if any, pH rise. There is an immeasurable rise from the lye in the chlorinating liquid, but it's something you can ignore. When you add the chlorine, the pH rises, but as it does it's job, the pH falls back, so the long term effect is neutral.

The main source of pH rise is incoming TA from fill water (after new fill water evaporates). Another is the known effects from adding chemicals. You can play around with a feature in PoolMath down at the bottom, called "Effects of Adding Chemicals". Your pool volume at the top needs to be correct, but the section down at the bottom tells what will happen from various chemical additions. The reason I mention this is that TFPC is based on only adding what we know is needed, and knowing what the addition will do

 

[Holydoc]

Hey, it's great to see how well you're going. That 1 ppm FC drop is worth keeping an eye on. Remember the OCLT as a diagnostic tool. In a clean pool with no algae and no incoming source of organic contamination, there is no measurable night-time loss of FC.

needsajet,

I did a OCLT last night with no drop in FC.

Now the story... I think I know why the chlorine from the pool store is so cheap. When I purchased it, I asked them what strength it was. One guy told me 12% while the other guy in the store said around 10%. The first guy did say that "Yes, it starts out as 12% but slowly weakens, so treat it as 10%". So I come home. Use PoolMath to calculate raising my FC from 5ppm to 10ppm (hoping that at 10ppm, the loss of FC during the day will stay in the range from 6-11ppm). Well PoolMath says place in 124 oz of 10% bleach to raise from 5 to 10. I place in the bleach. Wait an hour with the pump running on high. Test again. FC = 7 ppm. So I add about the same amount of bleach again (we are up to ~ 250 oz of bleach) to hopefully boost the FC enough. Sure enough the pool reads exactly 10ppm of FC after another hour.

That sets the bleach at around 5% strength? That just sounds wrong.

Today I am going by Walmart and buy their 10% bleach to try with PoolMath tonight when I raise my pool back to 10ppm. If PoolMath hits it on the head with the amount to add tonight, I will know that the pool store took me for a ride. However if PoolMath does not come close, then I will definitely be coming here for lots of help to try to discover why I am not matching.

Last night, I also added Muriatic acid for the first time to lower the pH to around 7.4. I did that when the FC was at 5 ppm since I knew from this forum that above 10ppm would give false readings for pH. On a side note, I do not like adding MA. That stuff is scary.

 

[needsajet]

Watch the date code on the bleach. 16180 means manufactured 2016 on the 180th day. You don't want anything more than 2 or 3 months old, and preferably from a high volume store.

Once your pH and TA settle in, MA additions will be less frequent, but yeh, you don't want to breathe the fumes. The effect is not chronic, but it's very alarming and the acute effects would be bad, but of course the sensation causes us to avoid the fumes like the plague.

A few things you can try for handling MA include:
Stay upwind
Float the jug on the water and pour near the water and just estimate rather than messing around with measuring
Hold your breath
Much more expensive, but you can buy a lower concentration that has less fumes
Be extra aware on humid days
A bit of MA on skin is not that bad. Rinse fairly soon, but don't panic.

For both chlorine and MA, protect your eyes. A splash in the eye is probably the biggest risk.

Never, ever mix liquid chlorine and MA in concentrated form. Use separate measuring cups or rinse really well.

Your clothes will tell you if you're getting droplets splashing around.

 

[Holydoc]

Watch the date code on the bleach. 16180 means manufactured 2016 on the 180th day. You don't want anything more than 2 or 3 months old, and preferably from a high volume store.

Yeah, there was no date code on the pool store stuff. They just fill your jugs and you trust them. Walmart brand will tell me whether I should trust them or not. I will definitely check its date.

Thanks again for your advice and lessons on how to do things the right way.

 

[Holydoc]

Ok, now I am upset. I bought 3 gallons of 10% Chlorine from Walmart. Used PoolMath to determine amount to add to bring 8.5ppm to 10ppm. I added the 37 oz and like magic... Pool went from 8.5 to 9.5ppm FC.

THAT is why the chlorine from the Pool store is so cheap! Well, the small bit of business they were still getting from me is complete. I cannot believe they sold me chlorine that was within the 5% range and claimed it was 12% to 10%.

Good news is that the pool went from 10ppm this morning to 8.5ppm this evening. That stayed right in the range for my CYA of 80. pH was 7.6. The pH is probably staying up due to the fountain I keep on to keep the water cool. I added a bit of MA to hopefully lower it to 7.4.