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Thread: Copper Stain I Think - PLEASE HELP!

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    Copper Stain I Think - PLEASE HELP!

    Hello and Help,

    I put 2 orange orb/clor no more, (orange is for 20,000 gals) in my pool 7/8/16 and noticed a small staining spot at bottom of wall where it start sloping down to the deep end within a day or two. I think it's from copper. When first used PH 7.8 Alk 90 Chlor .5 - I removed the orbs 7/16/16. Note the day before orbs I used 2 lbs Leslie's calcium chloride powder shock (dissolved) and ran pump overnight.

    Is it safe to use vitamin c to see if it's a stain from copper? Another Q is what is the best way to go from here?

    Now chlor is .5 to 0 and we added a good dose of algaecide 2 qts Blue Seal brand GROAN Wide Spectrum on 7/16/16. Pool Is 45,000 gals, offset L

    Would like to fix this right away, any advice from experience is greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,

    LI Mark

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    Re: Copper Stain I Think - PLEASE HELP!

    Hello and welcome to TFP! Did you know that many of those algaecides you add contain copper? That could be part of the problem. Vitamin C works on iron stains but may make a copper stain darker. For that you might need to try some dry acid to confirm. Best way to remove metals from water? Aside from an AA treatment, ... exchange the water and/or stop adding any products that may have copper as a by-product.

    Could you confirm what test kit you have for general water testing? Is it a TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C? It would be good to see a full set of test results from one of those recommended kits. You might also like to view the TFP Pool School - Metals in the Water and Metal Stains page.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
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    Re: Copper Stain I Think - PLEASE HELP!

    Thanks, No I did not know the algaecide has copper. The orbs have copper sulfate pentahydrate 99.0% They dump an initial chem into the water then copper plates within the housing with holed ionize water passing through. when in skimmers. I removed them 2 days ago. The test kit is Taylor 2005 complete high.

    Don't want to make darker, wondering what will work best. I have heard the vitamin c test id's mineral stain(s) but if chance to darken that's NG. Jacks Magic told me their ID kit would have enough in it to do a small stain like I have.

    My stain is light but noticeable and about 9" x 3" overall. I was not able to attach a pic to this, if another way to get you pic Please let me know.

    Thanks again,

    LI Mark

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    Re: Copper Stain I Think - PLEASE HELP!

    9"x3" isn't too bad. You might try a little dry acid in a sock around that area and see if that helps. The only problem after that is how much copper is still in the water that may precipitate out later and do the same thing elsewhere. So you'll have to watch for that.

    Have you tried linking your photos from Photobucket? That's what many of us do here on TFP. Upload your pics to Photobucket (free), then copy & paste the IMG code for that pic from Photobucket to your TFP post. Works great.

    Also, you can try going to the bottom of your quick reply post where it says “Go Advanced”, and then down to where it says “Manage Attachments”. It may let you upload them that way. They may show-up large because you can't adjust the size of the attachment, but it may work.

    For your K-2005, you need to order THIS ITEM which will basically make your kit the K-2006.

    - - - Updated - - -

    While all of your test results are important, I'd be curious to know what your FC, CYA, and pH are at the moment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Lastly, please add your pool info to your signature by going to the top of the TFP web page (just under the Pool School button) and select "SETTINGS". On the next page look to the left for a menu bar that says, “MY SETTINGS” and go to "EDIT SIGNATURE" to enter your pool and equipment info there. Or you can click EDIT YOUR SIGNATURE. It will help us later. This link may also help you: Pool School - Read This BEFORE You Post.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    Re: Copper Stain I Think - PLEASE HELP!

    I read the Pool School Metal in water.

    Do you think I should add sequestrant / metal out now or later?

    Yesterday am chlor= 0 to .5 Alk = 80 PH = 7.5 cyacid = 50 (Copper strip test = .5 to 1.0 ish)

    Curious if you have experience with the Jacks magic products and id kit? Or - Who makes the best stain remove products in your opinion?

    Also, Do you have email for pics now?T

    hanks Again,

    LI Mark

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    Re: Copper Stain I Think - PLEASE HELP!

    I do not have personal experience with the Jack's ID kit, but they have a good reputation of products. Not sure how reliable that copper test strip it, but it's reassuring that it's below .3ppm which is the threshold for trouble. If you can't do a water exchange, then a sequestrant may be a good precaution, but here's the situation .. you definitely want your water algae-free before treating with sequestrant. Your FC (free chlorine) looks to be way too low. With a CYA of 50, your target zone if 5-7 and never below 4 or algae can grow. When you get algae, you have to "SLAM" which requires a high FC (your case 20) to kill the algae. The higher the FC, the more chance of metal reaction/color change and staining. Plus, you'll deplete the sequestrant during a SLAM, so you don't want to waste it either. So try to maintain chlorine around 4-5 as best as you can for now until you can get the FAS-DPD (powder & drops) portion to augment your test kit. Also keep pH around 7.4-7.5 for now which might help. Accurate FC and pH testing will be critical as you try to manage water with copper.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    Re: Copper Stain I Think - PLEASE HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Splash View Post
    I do not have personal experience with the Jack's ID kit, but they have a good reputation of products. Not sure how reliable that copper test strip it, but it's reassuring that it's below .3ppm which is the threshold for trouble. If you can't do a water exchange, then a sequestrant may be a good precaution, but here's the situation .. you definitely want your water algae-free before treating with sequestrant. Your FC (free chlorine) looks to be way too low. With a CYA of 50, your target zone if 5-7 and never below 4 or algae can grow. When you get algae, you have to "SLAM" which requires a high FC (your case 20) to kill the algae. The higher the FC, the more chance of metal reaction/color change and staining. Plus, you'll deplete the sequestrant during a SLAM, so you don't want to waste it either. So try to maintain chlorine around 4-5 as best as you can for now until you can get the FAS-DPD (powder & drops) portion to augment your test kit. Also keep pH around 7.4-7.5 for now which might help. Accurate FC and pH testing will be critical as you try to manage water with copper.
    Thanks, I ordered the Jacks ID Kit for tomorrow delivery.

    RE: "manage water with copper" You mean what is already there, correct? I canned the orbs / clor no mores and will not likely be using them nor the frog copper and silver mineral system, . Both seem to be more of a headache for me so it's not worth it. Plus you need to do additional water monitoring at least the copper.

    Why do people even use these, more monitoring, more money NOT LESS than using just clorine, more can go wrong with the water chemistry and chlorine is still needed.....so why do you suppose, doesn't make sense.

    Also, Is this a typo from you? .3ppm - copper test strip readings are 0 - 0.2 - 0.3 - 1.0 - 2.0 - 3.0 Reading I got was 0.5 - 1.0 ish just to confirm.

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    Re: Copper Stain I Think - PLEASE HELP!

    Why do people even use these, more monitoring, more money NOT LESS than using just chlorine, more can go wrong with the water chemistry and chlorine is still needed.....so why do you suppose, doesn't make sense.
    Exactly! Unfortunately there are items on the market that arte made to appeal to buyers without fully understanding the long-term consequences.

    Also, Is this a typo from you? .3ppm - copper test strip readings are 0 - 0.2 - 0.3 - 1.0 - 2.0 - 3.0 Reading I got was 0.5 - 1.0 ish just to confirm.
    More like I've been in the TX heat too long. I just mis-read that reading. Thx. A copper level over .3 is cause for concern as it will definitely require aggressive monitoring. All of those products accumulated copper and copper doesn't just go away. Now some folks in your area, when faced with the dilemma of draining water, make a conscience choice whether to ride it out for the short summer season then drain for winter, or do it now. It's really your call. But all of those mineral products and algaecides catch-up to owners at some point (just like a high CYA) and they have to exchange the water for better overall management. Even if you only did a partial water exchange it may be better in the long-run for this season anyways. Just a thought. Stick to regular bleach only.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    Re: Copper Stain I Think - PLEASE HELP!

    Thanks for that. I am wondering if it would be best to sequester copper (strip test reading approx. 1.0) prior to doing a 2 gal @ 12.5% liquid sodium hypochlorite shock to bring chlorine up to 2-3. It is now about 0.

    The water is clear right now, 5 days ago, the 15th added 2 quarts of blue seal G R O A N wide range algaecide. PH = 7.5 Alk =80 cya = 50 calcium = 200 as of the 17th and got 1/2" of rain on the 18th so likely lowered these numbers a little.

    Remember now that I started orbs/chlor no more 7/8/16 that put a dose of copper sulfate in the water. Discarded them 1 week later and now back to using just 3" slow tabs in auto inline chlorinator. I got lucky so far - no copper staining.

    PS: Stain went from grayish to a little darker brownish is a couple of days. I got and used Jacks magic mineral tests, showed mine not mineral. I then used powered calcium chloride powder in a sock, put it on part of stain for 60 seconds, did a little at a time and it's 90% gone. Hard to believe such a tough stain on one small 3" x 8" spot that seemed to just show up one day... See the original post to this thread.

    Thanks Again for checking this out.

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    Re: Copper Stain I Think - PLEASE HELP!

    Good to see you are seeing improvements. I have no experience with the blue seal GROAN product, but look it over closely for any metal/copper products. Maybe try to find the MSDS? Your FC is very low during this treatment, but I guess that's the trade-off while you watch the staining. But be careful about the tabs. They will continue to increase CYA and make things more difficult later by requiring a higher FC rate. Very interesting that calcium chloride helped to remove a stain. I'll have to look into that some more.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
    If you enjoyed your TFP experience, please consider donating to Support TFP!

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    Re: Copper Stain I Think - PLEASE HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Splash View Post
    Good to see you are seeing improvements. I have no experience with the blue seal GROAN product, but look it over closely for any metal/copper products. Maybe try to find the MSDS? Your FC is very low during this treatment, but I guess that's the trade-off while you watch the staining. But be careful about the tabs. They will continue to increase CYA and make things more difficult later by requiring a higher FC rate. Very interesting that calcium chloride helped to remove a stain. I'll have to look into that some more.
    Thanks for that. This is the question better asked:

    I am wondering if it would be best to sequester copper (strip test reading approx. 1.0) prior to doing a 2 gal @ 12.5% liquid sodium hypochlorite shock to bring chlorine up to 2-3. It is now about 0.

    Sequester copper first / now - liquid shock with sodium chlorite above later?

    Or - Shock then sequester later.

    Concerned with the copper now at 0.5 - 1.0 based on strip test, All other recent chem reads now are in my last post.

    Naturally don't want to cause any problems / staining...

    Thanks

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    Re: Copper Stain I Think - PLEASE HELP!

    Minus the AA treatment, I would say sequestrant first then slowly increase FC as noted on THIS PAGE. Of course check the product instructions to ensure they don't have something specific to follow. But when you do begin to increase FC , do it slowly, increasing about 1 FC per day until you reach your minimum on the CYA chart. Each day watch closely for stains. If you see something, immediately add more sequestrant. Often times the sequestrant will lift a fresh stain and bind it from further trouble. At that point you are in a chess match to keep both FC and metal control happy.

    You might also find this discussion helpful: Metal and algae Cycle from ****!!
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
    If you enjoyed your TFP experience, please consider donating to Support TFP!

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