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Thread: Side UV disscussion from North Texas Pool Build

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    Mod Squad YippeeSkippy's Avatar
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    Side UV disscussion from North Texas Pool Build

    Split from North Texas Pool Build, Almost Complete - Page 2 Zea3
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaniv View Post
    The Sun's UV rays can only work on the surface of the pool hence the claim that UV sanitation from the sun is the same as a pool's UV system is incorrect.
    ...and since the UV/Ozone only works to the small amount of water that is passing over it when turned on and not the rest of the pool where swimmers can be transmitting pathogens to others nearby.... I'd say it makes more sense to enjoy the UV benefits the sun provides (free of charge!) and rely on my chlorine level to take care of the rest.
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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: North Texas Pool Build, Almost Complete

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaniv View Post
    The Sun's UV rays can only work on the surface of the pool hence the claim that UV sanitation from the sun is the same as a pool's UV system is incorrect.
    From a person that had a UV system installed:

    "I wouldn't recommend a UV system since your going to need to add chlorine somehow as the UV just disinfects the water going through it, and does nothing to disinfect the pool water that's actually in the pool, hence the need for chlorine in the pool water."

    A link to a chem geek post about UV systems (post #5):

    New pool owner in TX

    If you do a search on UV systems you will find MANY threads about it. What TFP is all about is knowing what helps and works to keep pools clean, clear, and safe. Knowledge is power. Our knowledge is science based.

    Kim
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    Re: North Texas Pool Build, Almost Complete

    Quote Originally Posted by kimkats View Post
    From a person that had a UV system installed:

    "I wouldn't recommend a UV system since your going to need to add chlorine somehow as the UV just disinfects the water going through it, and does nothing to disinfect the pool water that's actually in the pool, hence the need for chlorine in the pool water."

    A link to a chem geek post about UV systems (post #5):

    New pool owner in TX

    If you do a search on UV systems you will find MANY threads about it. What TFP is all about is knowing what helps and works to keep pools clean, clear, and safe. Knowledge is power. Our knowledge is science based.

    Kim
    Yes, i read a lot about it, even in my own build thread people suggested to remove the UV system so i did my research, i am not saying you need it i am too new in this business to make that decision and i respect the people here way too much to argue, all i am saying is that i don't accept the saying that the sun will do the job of a UV system - it is incorrect. if people agree that UV from the sun help disinfect our pools {and most here agree on that} a UV system will do it much better, again as other say you can live without it and save the $$$ but it doesn't make the system useless.
    Our Build 2016 14.5' x 26' IG Pebble, 14.5K Gal. 3.5' - 6.5' deep, 5 returns, 2 Skimmers, Hayward VS pump, Hayward 525 Cartridge Filter, Hayward E-Command 4, Heliocol Solar, Hayward LED Light, Paramount Ultraviolet, Polaris 280, AquaRite Pro, T-CELL-15, Sense and Dispense (HL-CHEM), Ph Dispense System (AQL-CHEM3) , Taylor K-2006 with SpeedStir

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    Mod Squad YippeeSkippy's Avatar
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    Re: North Texas Pool Build, Almost Complete

    The system isn't useless in an indoor pool that doesn't receive the sun's UV rays. But totally unnecessary in an outdoor pool that gets nature's UVs.
    My Amazon Smile for November12K Fiberglass IG, Infinity 4000 automatic cover, SWCG, Hayward Sand Filter, Hayward 1.5 Pump, Doheny Discovery Robot, Savi Melody LED pool lights, outdoor speakers and other assorted doo-dads. Sundance Altamar Hot Tub.
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    Re: North Texas Pool Build, Almost Complete

    Regardless, it's a sunk cost at this point even if it doesn't work. Not a big deal, just enjoy the swim season and your nice pool !

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    Re: North Texas Pool Build, Almost Complete

    Quote Originally Posted by YippeeSkippy View Post
    The system isn't useless in an indoor pool that doesn't receive the sun's UV rays. But totally unnecessary in an outdoor pool that gets nature's UVs.
    Do you mind explaining why?
    the UV from the sun do not penetrate the surface of an outdoor pool so what good will it make for the rest of the water in the pool? VS a UV system which gets all the water at least once a day using the filtration system.
    Our Build 2016 14.5' x 26' IG Pebble, 14.5K Gal. 3.5' - 6.5' deep, 5 returns, 2 Skimmers, Hayward VS pump, Hayward 525 Cartridge Filter, Hayward E-Command 4, Heliocol Solar, Hayward LED Light, Paramount Ultraviolet, Polaris 280, AquaRite Pro, T-CELL-15, Sense and Dispense (HL-CHEM), Ph Dispense System (AQL-CHEM3) , Taylor K-2006 with SpeedStir

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    Mod Squad YippeeSkippy's Avatar
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    Re: North Texas Pool Build, Almost Complete

    An indoor pool doesn't get the benefit of the sun's UV rays which help burn off CCs. So putting a UV device in an indoor pool makes up for the missing sun's rays.

    Both indoor and outdoor pools needs chlorine so it isn't being used to replace *that*.
    My Amazon Smile for November12K Fiberglass IG, Infinity 4000 automatic cover, SWCG, Hayward Sand Filter, Hayward 1.5 Pump, Doheny Discovery Robot, Savi Melody LED pool lights, outdoor speakers and other assorted doo-dads. Sundance Altamar Hot Tub.
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    Re: North Texas Pool Build, Almost Complete

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaniv View Post
    Do you mind explaining why?
    the UV from the sun do not penetrate the surface of an outdoor pool so what good will it make for the rest of the water in the pool? VS a UV system which gets all the water at least once a day using the filtration system.
    Absolutely not true.

    UVA and UVB both penetrate the water column in most standard residential depth pools. It's is not linear as absorption of light is an exponential process but the full water column receives UV. You can see this link for all the physics of water absorption -

    Water absorption spectrum

    UVA and UVB primarily act as oxidizers of combined chlorine compounds as well as interact with chlorine and are the primary source of chlorine photolysis.

    Germicidal UV (UV-C) does not make it through the upper atmosphere. So it does not play a role in outdoor pool water. One can certainly add a UV-C system to their pools but the cost/benefit analysis would indicate that you pay a lot of money upfront for something that doesn't add much value or benefit to your pool. The likelihood of being exposed to chlorine resistant pathogens in low bather load, single family use outdoor pools is fairly small and the entire reason for using UV is to protect against those types of pathogens. Most algae is not planktonic algae but sessile forming mats and sheets on a pool surface. UV lamps do nothing for that.

    If you have a UV system, that's fine, it will likely keep you from ever registering CCs. But, many people find that the bulbs burn out and they go days or weeks with no UV and cannot tell the difference. If you want to experiment with it, that's great. Run your pool with it on and off and see if you can detect any differences in your pool water analysis.
    Matt
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    Re: North Texas Pool Build, Almost Complete

    Your paper is not clear for UV light, try to read this, is it much better:
    http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/131/m131p257.pdf

    Only a few millimeters get the UV from the sun.

    Again, i am not saying you need a UV unit in your pool, i see lots of people don't use them and have clear water, that is not what this is about.
    Our Build 2016 14.5' x 26' IG Pebble, 14.5K Gal. 3.5' - 6.5' deep, 5 returns, 2 Skimmers, Hayward VS pump, Hayward 525 Cartridge Filter, Hayward E-Command 4, Heliocol Solar, Hayward LED Light, Paramount Ultraviolet, Polaris 280, AquaRite Pro, T-CELL-15, Sense and Dispense (HL-CHEM), Ph Dispense System (AQL-CHEM3) , Taylor K-2006 with SpeedStir

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    Re: North Texas Pool Build, Almost Complete

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaniv View Post
    Your paper is not clear for UV light, try to read this, is it much better:
    http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/131/m131p257.pdf

    Only a few millimeters get the UV from the sun.

    Again, i am not saying you need a UV unit in your pool, i see lots of people don't use them and have clear water, that is not what this is about.
    The paper you cite studies UVB light penetration of different types of seawater with different types of subsurface sediment materials. That water study has absolutely no bearing on pool water as it is water that is full of organic materials, inorganic silts and sand as well as photosynthetic flora and fauna. Pool water by contrast is much more highly filtered, has little to no dissolved organic contents and, if properly sanitized, has no biological contamination. Therefore one would expect the penetration of UV light to be orders of magnitude higher as there is much less scattering and absorption.

    That said, you have a UV system so you might as well use it. The challenge would be to prove that it actually makes some kind of positive impact on your pool water maintenance. If I were given a UV system, I would use it in my attached spa as that is where it would be the most useful since I prefer to soak in a spa with low chlorine. A UV system on a spa, like a hot tub, would help oxidize bather waste faster and allow for quicker water recovery before return the spa water back into the pool.
    Matt
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    Re: Side UV disscussion from North Texas Pool Build

    Then *what* is your point? I guess I'm confused, it seems you are implying that it serves some un-named function or benefit that you wouldn't get from the sun?

    I sure wouldn't pay $900 for it if I knew that it served little use. Thankfully no one tried to sell us one.
    My Amazon Smile for November12K Fiberglass IG, Infinity 4000 automatic cover, SWCG, Hayward Sand Filter, Hayward 1.5 Pump, Doheny Discovery Robot, Savi Melody LED pool lights, outdoor speakers and other assorted doo-dads. Sundance Altamar Hot Tub.
    Our pool build--> Our Pool Solved Our Sloping Yard Skippy's Cheap Pool Cooler -->Skippy's New Fountain

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    Re: North Texas Pool Build, Almost Complete

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    The paper you cite studies UVB light penetration of different types of seawater with different types of subsurface sediment materials. That water study has absolutely no bearing on pool water as it is water that is full of organic materials, inorganic silts and sand as well as photosynthetic flora and fauna. Pool water by contrast is much more highly filtered, has little to no dissolved organic contents and, if properly sanitized, has no biological contamination. Therefore one would expect the penetration of UV light to be orders of magnitude higher as there is much less scattering and absorption.

    That said, you have a UV system so you might as well use it. The challenge would be to prove that it actually makes some kind of positive impact on your pool water maintenance. If I were given a UV system, I would use it in my attached spa as that is where it would be the most useful since I prefer to soak in a spa with low chlorine. A UV system on a spa, like a hot tub, would help oxidize bather waste faster and allow for quicker water recovery before return the spa water back into the pool.
    OK, i will take your comment as is since i really not sure/know if pool water will be different in that magnitude, if so you are correct.

    Regardless, i will do my own testing since i have a UV system, most likely i will not see any difference like everyone else because there are other stuff living in our water beside green or black algae that we can't really see and i am certainly not going to professionally test the water for them with or without the UV system.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by YippeeSkippy View Post
    Then *what* is your point? I guess I'm confused, it seems you are implying that it serves some un-named function or benefit that you wouldn't get from the sun?

    I sure wouldn't pay $900 for it if I knew that it served little use. Thankfully no one tried to sell us one.
    My point has nothing to do with the usefulness of the UV system, all i am saying is that dismissing the system based only on the UV rays coming from the Sun is wrong.
    Our Build 2016 14.5' x 26' IG Pebble, 14.5K Gal. 3.5' - 6.5' deep, 5 returns, 2 Skimmers, Hayward VS pump, Hayward 525 Cartridge Filter, Hayward E-Command 4, Heliocol Solar, Hayward LED Light, Paramount Ultraviolet, Polaris 280, AquaRite Pro, T-CELL-15, Sense and Dispense (HL-CHEM), Ph Dispense System (AQL-CHEM3) , Taylor K-2006 with SpeedStir

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    Re: Side UV disscussion from North Texas Pool Build

    My wife was showing me her tan line on her feet today. She teaches in our pool and wears pool shoes while she teaches and she has developed a tan line on her feet. I would say the sun's UV's sure do make it plenty deep in our pool.
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