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Thread: Need operating advice - new VS pump

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    Post Need operating advice - new VS pump

    Our pool is about 30,000 Gallons, in ground, with a Pentair CCP-420 cartridge filter; Hayward SWP15 chlorine generator, IntelliFlo 3HP VarSpeed Pump and a solar heating array. There is one waterfall; one top skimmer, two bottom skimmers/drains, three returns and a Baracuda MX8 Suction Side Pool Cleaner. The suction line is 2" and pool equipment pad is 60 ft from the pool. The filter pressure gauge is about 5ft above the pool water; the solar array is about 20ft from the equipment pad and about same level as pool.

    Have not found definitive answer to pump speed and run time by perusing forum - seems too many variables are involved, so I did a little testing -- but am not sure how to interpret results. I ran pump at different RPMs with/without solar heater in circuit. Noted watts & pressure in filter. Here is data:

    pump.jpg

    Observations:
    1] trying to run the pump at speeds below 1300 had the pump "stuttering". Even at this rpm the pump shakes slightly and pressure in filter is 0.

    2] filter at startup is full of air - have been manually bleeding it. Is this normal?? Do I have to bleed the air or will the filter fill with water over time

    3] Have no idea whether the GPM estimates are OK or off the wall

    I would appreciate comments suggestions explanations. Ultimately I want to know how long to run and at what RPM/Watt consumption. Also - I'm puzzled why others can run pump in the 750-1000 RPM range and my system seems to need 1800-2200 RPM.
    Tony

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    Why do you say it needs 1800-2200? I run my pump at 1100 rpm for filtering, skimming and making chlorine with the SWG. It uses 150 watts and my filter pressure is 0. I have been doing this for 5 pool seasons and it works great. I run my solar panels at 1950 rpm and it uses 550 watts, not sure of filter pressure, maybe 8 or 10. Been doing that for 4 pool seasons and it also works great. We also power the waterfall at 1950 rpm usually and divert some water to the waterfall and so e to the returns, depending on how much waterfall we want.
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    You should need to let the air out of the filter once after the system is opened up, like cleaning the pump out or the filter. After that, the pump and filter should stay full of water. If the filter is draining every night, you have a leak letting air in.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle View Post
    You should need to let the air out of the filter once after the system is opened up, like cleaning the pump out or the filter. After that, the pump and filter should stay full of water. If the filter is draining every night, you have a leak letting air in.
    Don't solar panel systems have air valves at the top of them to allow the water to drain back down when off? Wouldn't that valve also allow air in on the pressure side which would also cause the filter to drain out as well?
    20k Gunite 16' x 32' , Hayward c7030 700 sq ft cartridge filter. Pentair Superflo 1hp 2sp pump, Intellichlor IC40 w/ Power Center SWG, Hayward GL-235 Solar Controller, (2) Digital GE Timers.

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    Nope. I have solar. The panels drain, the filter does not. I think the check valve after the filter helps prevent this and avoids the water running backward through the filter.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle View Post
    You should need to let the air out of the filter once after the system is opened up, like cleaning the pump out or the filter. After that, the pump and filter should stay full of water. If the filter is draining every night, you have a leak letting air in.
    After getting your comment I took a look - it seems the only way for this to happen is a leaking check valve. Its a Jandy valve, been in service 12yrs. Before I replace it, should I look for some other possible point of leakage? If so - where?

    On a related note - you mention you operate your cartridge filter at "0" psi. Should it be some particular positive value. If not, what is purpose of this gage?

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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    Quote Originally Posted by Blazej View Post
    After getting your comment I took a look - it seems the only way for this to happen is a leaking check valve. Its a Jandy valve, been in service 12yrs. Before I replace it, should I look for some other possible point of leakage? If so - where?

    On a related note - you mention you operate your cartridge filter at "0" psi. Should it be some particular positive value. If not, what is purpose of this gage?
    Without the check valve, I believe air would leak in through the valve at the top of the solar for sure. So that would lead me to agree as well that the check valve has to be letting air in (something that it shouldn't be doing)...

    If its a Jandy valve, I believe you can just buy the flapper attached to the glass up top and new gasket, so that you can just screw in the replacement flapper instead of piping a new one in. Just make sure to use a silicone grease on the gasket like Magic Lube II.

    As for his cartridge filter being '0', mine does the same thing at a low enough pressure...meaning the system does have positive pressure (prob between 1-2 with mine), but the cartridge filter pressure gauges aren't sensitive enough to read that low of a pressure....Kinda like driving a car at 3mph, your speedometer will still say 0 (at least in some cars)
    20k Gunite 16' x 32' , Hayward c7030 700 sq ft cartridge filter. Pentair Superflo 1hp 2sp pump, Intellichlor IC40 w/ Power Center SWG, Hayward GL-235 Solar Controller, (2) Digital GE Timers.

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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    Quote Originally Posted by pooldv View Post
    I run my solar panels at 1950 rpm and it uses 550 watts, not sure of filter pressure, maybe 8 or 10.
    Why is your pressure so high? Does solar increase it that much?

    My pressure at 1750 is around 2 psi and at 3650 it goes up to 10 psi.... I would think that if your pressure was between 8-10 at 1950 that at full power, your filter pressure would be in the 30's min...
    20k Gunite 16' x 32' , Hayward c7030 700 sq ft cartridge filter. Pentair Superflo 1hp 2sp pump, Intellichlor IC40 w/ Power Center SWG, Hayward GL-235 Solar Controller, (2) Digital GE Timers.

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    Filter pressure only matters in that you know what your clean pressure is at some high speed, say 3000 rpm, so that when the pressure rises 20-25% above clean pressure, at the same 3000 rpm, you know to clean/backwash the filter. Otherwise, filter pressure is different in every pool and is pretty meaningless.
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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    Quote Originally Posted by pooldv View Post
    Filter pressure only matters in that you know what your clean pressure is at some high speed, say 3000 rpm, so that when the pressure rises 20-25% above clean pressure, at the same 3000 rpm, you know to clean/backwash the filter. Otherwise, filter pressure is different in every pool and is pretty meaningless.
    I thought that was true up until a certain point...like around 40 psi... I figured at that high of a psi, something was going on with the pool. Had no idea that some pools have normally operating psi's that are that high...
    20k Gunite 16' x 32' , Hayward c7030 700 sq ft cartridge filter. Pentair Superflo 1hp 2sp pump, Intellichlor IC40 w/ Power Center SWG, Hayward GL-235 Solar Controller, (2) Digital GE Timers.

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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    My system has a Jandy check valve [now about 12 yrs old]. Is the purpose of this valve to keep water in the filter chamber? Will the spring loaded flapper of this check valve do that once circulation has stopped? The filter is at highest elevation of all pool equipment.

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    If it is between the pump and the pool then it is probably there to keep the pump primed.

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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    The check valve is on outlet from filter, ultimately heading back to pool after passing thru chlorinator cell [either directly or after passing thru solar array]. that is why I asked the questions: Will the spring loaded flapper of this check valve keep the filter chamber full of water once pump has stopped circulating water? The filter is at highest elevation of all pool equipment. See photos.
    Equip.jpgequip 2.jpg
    IG 30,000 Gal.pebble pool w/Pentair CCP-420 cartridge filter; Hayward SWP15 chlorine generator, IntelliFlo 3HP VarSpeed Pump & solar heating array. Have one waterfall; one top skimmer, two bottom skimmers/drains, three returns and Baracuda MX8 Pool Cleaner. Suction line is 2" w/pool equipment pad 60ft from pool. Filter pressure gauge is 6ft above pool water; solar array is about 20ft from equipment pad and approx. same level as pool.

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    Aha, did there used to be a trichlor puck dispenser before the SWG? It was probably there to stop very acidic/chlorinated water from going back to the filter.
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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    No I replaced the original Autopilot+cell with Hayward otherwise did not change plumbing. The loop containing new cell is taller but flow has not been re-routed.
    I'm prepared to replace the check valve mechanism but wonder whether that spring loaded flapper will keep water from leaking out of filter chamber.
    IG 30,000 Gal.pebble pool w/Pentair CCP-420 cartridge filter; Hayward SWP15 chlorine generator, IntelliFlo 3HP VarSpeed Pump & solar heating array. Have one waterfall; one top skimmer, two bottom skimmers/drains, three returns and Baracuda MX8 Pool Cleaner. Suction line is 2" w/pool equipment pad 60ft from pool. Filter pressure gauge is 6ft above pool water; solar array is about 20ft from equipment pad and approx. same level as pool.

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    Sure it will work, just not sure why you need it.
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    2012 build and pics, 20k gal gunite, black onyx pebblesheen, OK flagstone, IntellifoVS, cart filter w/Pleatco, IC40 SWG, Solartouch, 5 12'x4' solar panels, HP50HA heat pump, 8mil solar cover, borates, TF-100 test kit, SONOS, Doheny's Discovery Robot, hot tub on bleach

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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    Filter drains after pump shuts off and next day need to be bled of air. That is what I'm trying to fix. Not sure new check valve is answer.
    IG 30,000 Gal.pebble pool w/Pentair CCP-420 cartridge filter; Hayward SWP15 chlorine generator, IntelliFlo 3HP VarSpeed Pump & solar heating array. Have one waterfall; one top skimmer, two bottom skimmers/drains, three returns and Baracuda MX8 Pool Cleaner. Suction line is 2" w/pool equipment pad 60ft from pool. Filter pressure gauge is 6ft above pool water; solar array is about 20ft from equipment pad and approx. same level as pool.

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Need operating advice - new VS pump

    I'm not either. The next two logical things seem to be the pressure gauge and the air bleed valve. But, if they are letting in air when gravity pulls the water from the filter then if the check valve stops the filter from draining then it won't suck in air anymore. It is easy to change the guts on that Jandy check valve.
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