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Thread: Polyquat 60 Rationale

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    Polyquat 60 Rationale

    Hey Gang,

    So I am now in the process of bringing my pool down from mustard algae shock level. I passed a OCLT and ran my pool for 24 hours at MA shock as per the directions on this forum. I've thrown away foam pool toys and soaked material swim floats in my slop sink filled with water and bleach. I've put my pool toys in a cooler with water and bleach. I've left my poles and other larger pieces of equipment in the pool at MA shock level for 3 hours (when only 1 was called for). I put my robot in the pool and let that run for 5 hours just to make sure that the high chlorine level touches all the inside parts of it. I didn't even rinse the robot off this time when I pulled it out; whatever chlorine solution is in it I wanted it to stay in it. I sprayed the watering hose w/ chlorox bleach spray, the robot caddy/stand, my shock mixing bucket (outside). I even tossed my brushes and ordered new b/c I just can't stomach dealing w/ mustard algae again.

    I had what I'm pretty sure was mustard algae last year. Long story short the pool company gave me some yellow treatment sodium bromide stuff (probably shouldn't have used it), I dosed my pool, watched my chlorine drop, fought w/ the drop for a week and than the cover went on it. I have no idea if I was done fighting with the chlorine drop b/c I ran out of time.

    This year I opened the pool (which by the way the mesh safety cover was a bad idea I think) to a murky mess. SLAM'd the pool, let my chlorine drift south but still pretty high (7.5 at CYA 70-80 and ph 7.2). Plenty of acidity to keep the chlorine active, comfortably above my target FC level.

    And of course the mustard algae came right back with a vengeance. This sandy, dusty pollen looking stuff all on the bottom, smears of it on my walls and floor while I was away. Pool still showed 5ppm of chlorine and no CC when I got back, but the pool was heading south.

    SLAMed it again and now I did the MA thing.

    Which brings me to the whole point of this post. I want to use Polyquat 60 to help inhibit anything I might have missed. I know I shouldn't need it if FC is held at a proper level (which I had), but i just can't help but think I missed a spot, or a tool, or SOMETHING that will drop it back in my pool. Or maybe that 1ppm OCLT drop was RIGHT on the line and there are some spores somewhere just waiting to start it all over again. I'll probably lose my mind and cover the pool if it comes back again this summer.

    Now - many of you have southern pools where they are likely open 6 months, 8 months, maybe all year long. So dealing with a 1-3 week SLAM isn't really a show stopper for you guys. It's part of 'doing business' I suppose. But for those of us in northern states, losing weeks to a SLAM is a huge deal when the pool is only open for 3 months, maybe 4 if you have a heater. While some of you with much more pool time might view a outbreak and a SLAM as a inconvenience, for many of us it is downright heartbreaking. For those of us who only run the pool for a few months out of the year, we may not really care a whole lot if we spend a few bucks more on something to help make the most of our little time. I know some see the price of Polyquat 60 and think they don't want to spend the money on it, and that's fine. But if putting it in adds another blanket of security to keep this mustard from popping back in (irregardless of FC monitoring, dead zones in the pool, etc) I'd buy a case of the stuff and not even blink. Well worth it to me than the hassle of a SLAM and losing weeks in a short pool season.

    Now, to be clear I am not abandoning the principles of this forum. I will still test daily for FC and pH, and weekly for the other's as I have always done. I will still brush the walls once a week, maybe twice a week. I know PolyQuat isn't a killer really and its more of a preventer. But if I dose the initial large quantity of it per the bottle (and recover the resulting chlorine loss) and keep up w/ the high end of the maintenance dose, if there IS a smidgen of mustard somewhere in my pool that was missed or a article I overlooked sterilizing, will the PolyQuat act as a 2ndary preventative to keep it at bay? I mean, that's what its for right? I don't expect to poor a bottle in and resolve an outbreak, but it should help keep things square assuming proper chlorine level right?

    Like I said earlier, personally for me with such a short swim season spending the money on a 1/2 dozen bottles of the stuff for a season is no big deal to me. If it keeps the pool clear I'm happy to do it.
    42' natural free-form pool, vinyl lined, 6' deep end, 21,400 gallons
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    Re: Polyquat 60 Rationale

    Using Polyquat is really redundant. You can try it if you want to but what is to say that you are going to get better results. If the chlorine did not stop it why would the polyquat?

    My pool is open 12 months a year and I never SLAMED. I follow the CYA chlorine chart and have a Stenner pump. I only test once a week except during the spring and fall when i do it twice a week.

    The trick with mustard algae is to kill it all and then run your chlorine levels at the upper end of the range for your CYA.
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

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    Re: Polyquat 60 Rationale

    I have a salt water pool. The only chart I can find that tells me where to be is this one:

    SWG Pools

    CYA (Stabilizer) Minimum FC Target FC Shock FC
    60*
    3
    4
    24
    70
    3
    5
    28
    80
    4
    6
    31


    Clearly I was over the target and it still came back.

    So if one reads this very helpful board enough you can find this chart:

    CYA ........... Min FC3 ..... Target FC ...... Yel/Mstrd Min ...... Shock FC ..... Yel/MstrdShock
    0 ................. 0.071 ........... 0.111 ................ 0.151 .................. 0.641 .............. 1.501
    10 ............... 0.81 ............. 1.21 .................. 1.61 .................... 4.5 .................. 7.1
    20 ............... 1.51 ............. 2.4 .................... 3.1 ..................... 8.3 ................ 12.7
    30 ............... 2.2 ............... 3.5 .................... 4.6 ................... 12.2 ................ 18.2
    40 ............... 2.9 ............... 4.6 .................... 6.1 ................... 16.0 ................ 23.8
    50 ............... 3.7 ............... 5.7 .................... 7.5 ................... 19.8 ................ 29.42
    60 ............... 4.4 ............... 6.8 .................... 9.0 ................... 23.7 ................ 34.92
    70 ............... 5.1 ............... 8.0 .................. 10.5 ................... 27.52 ............... 40.52
    80 ............... 5.8 ............... 9.1 .................. 12.0 ................... 31.42 ............... 46.12
    90 ............... 6.6 ............. 10.2 .................. 13.5 ................... 35.22 ............... 51.72
    100 ............. 7.3 ............. 11.4 .................. 14.9 ................... 39.12 ............... 57.32
    120 ............. 8.7 ............. 13.6 .................. 17.9 ................... 46.72 ............... 68.42


    But it deals with non-SWG pools. My chlorine was below the mustard minimum for sure. Should I be following the non-SWG chart in my case? At CYA 70 and a mustard minimum of 10.5, call it 12 to compensate for dead zones? As I understand it, I'll never be able to test my pH again. Also, would a chlorine level of 12 ruin my liner over time? Or would the CYA level buffer the damage and it'd be okay?
    42' natural free-form pool, vinyl lined, 6' deep end, 21,400 gallons
    2 HP Hayward Superpump, Hayward Aquarite SWG, AquaComfort 125k btu heat pump, 350lb Hayward Pro Series sand filter
    2 skimmers, 2 floor drains, 10 returns (6 in the pool, 2 in the steps, 2 in the swim-out)
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    Re: Polyquat 60 Rationale

    The CYA should buffer damage to the liner. Try running your chlorine at about 9. Set the SWG to get 10. that should be 9 by the end of the day. What is the SWG schedule?
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

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    Re: Polyquat 60 Rationale

    I have been able to hold my chlorine at SWG 40% running my pump 9 hours a day from 9AM to 6PM. But like I said, if the poly acts as insurance or even keeps a small residual of yellow away from me its 100% worth it to me. I'm really just making sure that Poly's effectiveness as a preventer is equally viable for mustard as it is for green.

    Like I said, 3-4 months is a short season so I have no qualms at all about running higher chlorine too.
    Last edited by s1njin; 07-05-2016 at 08:49 AM. Reason: clarified time schedule
    42' natural free-form pool, vinyl lined, 6' deep end, 21,400 gallons
    2 HP Hayward Superpump, Hayward Aquarite SWG, AquaComfort 125k btu heat pump, 350lb Hayward Pro Series sand filter
    2 skimmers, 2 floor drains, 10 returns (6 in the pool, 2 in the steps, 2 in the swim-out)
    TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Polyquat 60 Rationale

    It is fine to manage your pool using polyquat 60 as one of your weapons if you choose. Just like it is fine to use borates to help buffer your pH....or for that matter anything you choose that makes good sense is fine.

    I guess my only thought in using 60 is it might allow you to become less diligent about your chlorine level. That extra security is, in some ways, counter-productive.

    That's my only objection and I can promise you you will not be alone if you decide to use it. I say it over and over, being a TFP'r is not about strict adherence to a dogma.....it's about understanding what chemistry does what in your pool and how you can adjust that chemistry to keep your pool crystal clear. You are for sure a TFP'r.
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    Re: Polyquat 60 Rationale

    Thanks Duraleigh. I'm OCD when it comes to keeping my pool chemistry in check, which is why it was so infuriating to see the mustard come back and whack me. I'll run chlorine in the 9-10 range shooting for a CYA of 70 and I'll start my polyquat dosing as well. The bottle says the maintenance does is 2-4 oz per 10k gallons of water every 5-7 days. So, for me, that means 8 ounces every 5 days just because the season is so short.

    42' natural free-form pool, vinyl lined, 6' deep end, 21,400 gallons
    2 HP Hayward Superpump, Hayward Aquarite SWG, AquaComfort 125k btu heat pump, 350lb Hayward Pro Series sand filter
    2 skimmers, 2 floor drains, 10 returns (6 in the pool, 2 in the steps, 2 in the swim-out)
    TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Polyquat 60 Rationale

    s1njin -- It sounds like your question at hand can be abbreviated as:

    It may help, it may not help. But on the off chance that is does and I don't care about spending a few extra bucks for peace of mind, is there any drawback to using Poly 60 in addition to a strictly followed TFP regime?

    It appears that members are answering that it does not hurt. Being a fellow short season pool goer as well, I sympathize with you not wanting any downtime. I say if it gives you an extra layer of security, go for it.
    25 + year pool owner. Current pool (going on 11th year) - 38K gallon in ground Gunite/White Plaster, Spillover Spa, Hayward Cartridge Filter, Hayward 450k BTU NG Heater, Hayward Goldline Aqua Logic control with T-Cell-15 Salt Water Cell, Dolphin Explorer.
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    Re: Polyquat 60 Rationale

    I believe (I could be wrong) that PolyQuat 60 as an algae inhibitor is accepted fact. What I'm wondering is if its all algae (green, yellow, black) or just green?

    If your FC is high enough, the cost of it becomes redundant. However in my case I believe the irregular shape of my free-form pool creates more dead zones that what a 'normal' shaped pool may have. Plus if my OCLT was right on the line or if I introduce a article back into the pool that I neglected to clean, it could make for problems again. If the PolyQuat 60 serves as the security blanket in these cases, for me, its a no-brainer.
    42' natural free-form pool, vinyl lined, 6' deep end, 21,400 gallons
    2 HP Hayward Superpump, Hayward Aquarite SWG, AquaComfort 125k btu heat pump, 350lb Hayward Pro Series sand filter
    2 skimmers, 2 floor drains, 10 returns (6 in the pool, 2 in the steps, 2 in the swim-out)
    TF-100 Test Kit

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Polyquat 60 Rationale

    One thing to keep in mind is that the polyquat will use up some FC as the chlorine oxidizes it.
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    Re: Polyquat 60 Rationale

    From the posts I've read by ChemGeek (if he's around maybe he can chime in), the FC loss for a maintenance dose should be very low to insignificant. Its the initial 'loading' of the chemical that will cause the steep drop in FC. Since I'm coming down from a shock level anyway, it might be a good time when I'm around 20 or 15 ppm of chlorine.

    I speculate it would be more of an issue for people running very low chlorine levels to begin with (2-4 ppm), hit the pool w/ a quart of Poly, and only run their tests once a week or use the strips. Than they might be running 0ppm of CL and asking too much of the preventative.
    42' natural free-form pool, vinyl lined, 6' deep end, 21,400 gallons
    2 HP Hayward Superpump, Hayward Aquarite SWG, AquaComfort 125k btu heat pump, 350lb Hayward Pro Series sand filter
    2 skimmers, 2 floor drains, 10 returns (6 in the pool, 2 in the steps, 2 in the swim-out)
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    Re: Polyquat 60 Rationale

    I was working on a SLAM on another pool where sodium bromide was involved. How much went in the pool? If it wasn't much, it won't need to be considered, and things will get easier to manage as it depletes.

    You can ignore all the rest. It's just what I would do if I were in your shoes. I agree about never wanting to lose a week, let alone more!

    Talking FC as % of CYA, for average situations, recommended minimum is 7.5% without SWC, 4.5% with SWC, so SWC is 60% of non-SWC
    For mustard algae, 15% minimum for non-SWC (no listing for SWC, but using above ratio, 60% would be 9%)
    Targets are mostly 55%/60% higher than minimum

    So, a starting point for me would be: 9% minimum, and 14% target. 14% of 70 is 10 PPM FC
    Then I'd want to know what HOCl is at that level, so I look that up and see 0.066 PPM at pH 7.5

    That's less than 1/4 of what our tap water is, and much less than a well-run commercial indoor pool, so I'd arbitrarily jack it up and go with a target of 12 ppm FC. I'm going to lose more FC to sun, so hopefully my SWC can keep up. I'm going to use more acid, but I'd be happy at pH 7.5 to 7.8

    Just my opinion, but I'd be more comfortable doing that and not having to suffer another learning curve to understand and/or potentially manage the interactions between polyquat and chlorine.

    A couple of options I'd investigate (and probably not find appealing) are a pool cover or full water exchange.
    12k IG salt; glass beads in plaster; K-2006C, K-1766, CCL, and Aussie 4in1 (HTH); Pentair Eco800 1.2HP VS; Zodiac SWC 1.3 lb/day (25 g/hr); 25" filter recycled glass; OKU solar panels; 1/2 HP solar pump; Rebel (Warrior) pool cleaner; FlowViz; prior pool AG 10k | Read Before Posting to get the best possible advice | ... and this helped me a lot!: TFPC for Beginners

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    Re: Polyquat 60 Rationale

    Does anybody know the %CYA as chlorine should be in the pool before you add PolyQuat in the 'loading' dose? Is it 20% or less of CYA? Meaning if my CYA is 70 I should dose PolyQuat at 14ppm chlorine or lower? I know if I load the PolyQuat 60 at shock level or whatever the level is as its drifting down, I risk breaking down the PolyQuat too early due to the high chlorine. Buckman labs sites 5-10 ppm as acceptable chlorine level for adding PolyQuat to close a pool (found a post by ChemGeek), but they neglect to mention what the CYA is. If its CYA 0, I can let it rip anytime.
    42' natural free-form pool, vinyl lined, 6' deep end, 21,400 gallons
    2 HP Hayward Superpump, Hayward Aquarite SWG, AquaComfort 125k btu heat pump, 350lb Hayward Pro Series sand filter
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    Re: Polyquat 60 Rationale

    Anyone?
    42' natural free-form pool, vinyl lined, 6' deep end, 21,400 gallons
    2 HP Hayward Superpump, Hayward Aquarite SWG, AquaComfort 125k btu heat pump, 350lb Hayward Pro Series sand filter
    2 skimmers, 2 floor drains, 10 returns (6 in the pool, 2 in the steps, 2 in the swim-out)
    TF-100 Test Kit

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Polyquat 60 Rationale

    I don't know. But, I would keep FC above minimum at all times to keep the pool sanitized and algae free.
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    Re: Polyquat 60 Rationale

    I plan on keeping my FC around 9-10 for CYA 70. I just know ChemGeek said Poly is oxidized quicker if the FC is high; I just don't know how high is HIGH.
    42' natural free-form pool, vinyl lined, 6' deep end, 21,400 gallons
    2 HP Hayward Superpump, Hayward Aquarite SWG, AquaComfort 125k btu heat pump, 350lb Hayward Pro Series sand filter
    2 skimmers, 2 floor drains, 10 returns (6 in the pool, 2 in the steps, 2 in the swim-out)
    TF-100 Test Kit

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Polyquat 60 Rationale

    Yep, I'd keep it between Min and Target.
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