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Thread: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall....

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    A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall....

    Hi everyone. First post. I have been reading up and followed and learned a lot. Just purchased a house with a 10k pebbletec pool and the Jandy Stealth promptly died. We had other issues prior to that which I have resolved but nothing major. I have disassembled the Jandy DEL60 DE filter and cleaned that out just before the Stealth died miserably - it's about 12 years old so I'm not surprised.

    So after replacing with an intelliflo 2 VST I have a few questions. I'm going to try and use the intelliflo GPM calculator by MAS. I think that will help me set my RPM for at least one turnover of the water - I know the new Intelliflo is slightly more efficient but it will give me a good starting point and I can go down from there I assume.

    1) My psi on the DE filter was always around 8 psi but now after install the PB had the high/skimmer setting at 2750rpm which has the pressure up past 20psi on the filter gauge. Is this an issue? It then looks like it is "dirty" but I know it isn't because it was cleaned a couple weeks ago from top to bottom and then recharged with DE by weight (literally got a scale out). Should I just not worry about the psi being higher when it is running in that higher speed?

    2) The paramount in ground system was serviced (replaced module inside) prior to purchasing the house because the popups weren't working but the gauge has always read 10psi or less. In the manual I have for that system it says 14psi is the reading it needs to show. I think it is off because the water is coming out of the in floor cleaners at a very forceful pressure at the 2750 rpm on the intelliflo. Should I be concerned about the reading on the gauge? It doesn't seem to go over 10psi. Get a new gauge? Everything cycles correctly it seems.

    I know that the minimum I'll probably run the pump is around the 800-1000rpm range which as I have researched seems to be where the efficiency is worth it without going so low to not be worth the trade off. At this rate the DE filter gauge doesn't read anything above a few psi and the paramount although cycling doesn't show much as far as psi as well.

    3) Also I have a waterfall that has some funky chips/cracks/chunks down to the rebar. It also appears to be leaking through the concrete. I'm thinking someone will have to be called to repair it but I'd like to get everyone's opinion on this. I don't think it is something I want to tackle myself. Pictures are attached.Photo Jun 25, 9 00 49 AM.jpgPhoto Jun 25, 9 01 29 AM.jpg

    Ok thanks for any info and help. This forum has been super helpful in learning about pools.
    10K Gallon PebbleTec, waterfall, Paramount in ground cleaner, Pentair Intelliflo2 VST, Jandy DEL60 filter

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    Re: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall.

    1) PSI is proportion to the square of flow rate/RPM so higher RPM results in higher pressure. Physics.

    2) You might try a new gauge. They don't last forever. But if it goes to zero when the pump is off and if you tap it, the pressure does not change, it is probably ok.


    I think that will help me set my RPM for at least one turnover of the water - I know the new Intelliflo is slightly more efficient but it will give me a good starting point and I can go down from there I assume.
    Turnovers really don't matter so there is no point targeting a turnover. The only thing that matters is that you get enough chlorine in the pool and the pool remains as clean as you would like it to.

    Pool School - Determine Pump Run Time
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall.

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    1) PSI is proportion to the square of flow rate/RPM so higher RPM results in higher pressure. Physics.

    2) You might try a new gauge. They don't last forever. But if it goes to zero when the pump is off and if you tap it, the pressure does not change, it is probably ok.


    Turnovers really don't matter so there is no point targeting a turnover. The only thing that matters is that you get enough chlorine in the pool and the pool remains as clean as you would like it to.

    Pool School - Determine Pump Run Time
    I did read that and then promptly forgot! Thanks for the reminder. I'll probably turn down my run time to save on energy significantly. Even when my pump was down the time it took to replace there was no issue because the pool was chlorinated. It stayed clear and we just circulated by brushing. So more evidence to the point. Currently using tabs because I've been busy with the new home projects.

    Looking into the Hasa liquidator but maybe you could answer a question about that - in the heat of Tucson will I have issues with A) salt build up B) chlorine becoming ineffective due to the heat and possible sun. It is partially shaded being right next to the house but not completely covered. In the winter I'm sure the temp wouldn't be an issue but being that Arizona gets scorching during the summer I wonder if I'm going to have to be dumping liquid into that thing all the time due to setting a high flow rate/degraded chlorine.

    Do you think the PSI even matters for the infloor cleaner if it gets cleaned? Just weird that I can't get it to the level they mention with the pump running super high. I hope it's not indicative of another issue.

    Also any detriment to the filter with the higher RPM/PSI? I get the physics part of the equation which is what I figured.

    If I don't have a baseline for the clean and dirty of the filter how should I know when to backwash? Or alternatively, what rpm should I run it at so that I can use that as a base level for cleanliness of the filter?

    Also do you think your spreadsheet for the Intelliflo is fairly accurate for the intelliflo 2?

    Thanks for the quick reply!
    10K Gallon PebbleTec, waterfall, Paramount in ground cleaner, Pentair Intelliflo2 VST, Jandy DEL60 filter

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    Re: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall.

    chlorine becoming ineffective due to the heat and possible sun.
    That is independent of the chlorination method. If that is an issue, just raise the CYA level.

    Do you think the PSI even matters for the infloor cleaner if it gets cleaned? Just weird that I can't get it to the level they mention with the pump running super high. I hope it's not indicative of another issue.
    If it is working, maybe not.

    Also any detriment to the filter with the higher RPM/PSI?
    Not for extra PSI causes by high flow rates. However, if the higher PSI is caused by a dirty filter, then eventually, that could be an issue.


    If I don't have a baseline for the clean and dirty of the filter how should I know when to backwash? Or alternatively, what rpm should I run it at so that I can use that as a base level for cleanliness of the filter?
    but now after install the PB had the high/skimmer setting at 2750rpm which has the pressure up past 20psi on the filter gauge.
    Maybe this is a good start. You want always measure it at the same RPM and at your highest operating RPM is best (not necessarily 3450 RPM which may be too high).


    Also do you think your spreadsheet for the Intelliflo is fairly accurate for the intelliflo 2?
    Which Intelliflo are you talking about? Here is the list in the pump database:

    IntelliFlo i1 VS 011008
    IntelliFlo i1 VS 011059
    IntelliFlo i2 VS 011009
    IntelliFlo VF 011012
    IntelliFlo VS 011018
    IntelliFlo VS 011055
    IntelliFlo VS+SVRS 011017
    IntelliFlo VS-3050
    IntelliFlo XF VS 022055

    Also, which spreadsheet are you using?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall....

    I think the OP is talking about the Liquidator tank of chlorine becoming ineffective.

    I'm in Tucson. It's super hot and sunny here. Any chlorine left outdoors will heat up well into the 100F range. Unless you do something to shield the LQ from the sun and heat, the LC in the tank is going to degrade fast. Your best bet here in AZ is an SWG pool.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall.

    We had a SWG but I cut it out because it was a Jandy that was older and I believe dead. It was saying it was working but it was 12 years old and the company that had been "servicing" the pool previously was adding tabs even though they had a SWG on a 10k pool - so I feel it wasn't working at all. The water was way out of whack because the CYA was through the roof and chlorine was out of control high (I'm assuming a lot of combined chlorine) but nothing was growing luckily. It was something I didn't want to deal with as far as adding salt and one more thing to balance. Hence why I'm on tabs right now. But who knows maybe I'll go back to that unless I can figure out a way to add liquid chlorine easily. Maybe I can run the liquidator from the garage and keep it relatively shielded as my equipment is pretty near the passive ventilation for the side of the garage. Anyone ever done that? Ideas?

    Before anyone asks I did drain and refill about 3-4 weeks ago and after that the pump died so my journey has been arduous the last few weeks.

    Mas985 - CYA past a certain point will be detrimental. I got it up to 30+ right away because I'm in the desert so that my chlorine isn't being destroyed as quickly.

    I have the newer 015 Intelliflo 2 VST. Supposedly they changed the motor or something to be slightly more efficient so I'm not sure how accurate your page would be. I am using the spreadsheet from your hydraulics 101 thread.

    I think that given my filter and pool size I will never top out past 2/3 of the RPM that the intelliflo can put out. I mean the water comes blasting out of the returns and cleaners when it is even on 2600 rpm. Which is awesome because hopefully I'll save quite a bit on energy....I hope. I'll probably run it at around the 1000 range for several hours and a higher speed in the mid 2000's for a few hours to skim. My other concern is that when running at low speeds if the filter is even slightly clogged it could cause a significant decrease in flow rate in comparison to the higher RPMs. I guess if running at that higher RPM I'll always be safe....

    Any input on the waterfall Joyfulnoise? Recommendations on companies in Tucson? Really looking for someone in Tucson who does that type of repair and it seems like nobody knows. Which is crazy. Tucson is so small you would think the pool people would have some idea. Thanks for the help as always!

    Also given the heat here any recommendations on TA level? I have a fairly dark pebbletec pool so it stays pretty warm when the sun is out.
    10K Gallon PebbleTec, waterfall, Paramount in ground cleaner, Pentair Intelliflo2 VST, Jandy DEL60 filter

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    Re: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall.

    Mas985 - CYA past a certain point will be detrimental. I got it up to 30+ right away because I'm in the desert so that my chlorine isn't being destroyed as quickly.
    Only after CYA gets way above 80 ppm is it an issue. I run at 80 all time with an SWG without any issue. In places, like AZ, you need to be way above 30 ppm or your FC will not last very long. I would go up to at least 60 ppm.

    As for the spreadsheet, there are multiple spreadsheets on that page so which one are you using (tab name).

    My other concern is that when running at low speeds if the filter is even slightly clogged it could cause a significant decrease in flow rate in comparison to the higher RPMs.
    Flow rate is proportional to RPM with a clean filter or with a dirty filter so if high speed reduces by 10%, low speed reduces by 10% as well.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall.

    Intelliflo GPM estimator v006 - the key is to measure at the same RPM on the pump but I've read that if you run the pump at a lower speed a smaller psi increase can make a bigger difference.

    And by 30+ I mean by adding and I have had tabs in there for a few weeks. I didn't want to jump it too high initially because I didn't know if I would be staying on tabs or moving to liquid.
    10K Gallon PebbleTec, waterfall, Paramount in ground cleaner, Pentair Intelliflo2 VST, Jandy DEL60 filter

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    Re: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall.

    Yes also that WS calculates flow rate from the pump wattage but the slope of the wattage vs GPM is very shallow so that introduces error. It is much more accurate to calculate flow rate using the Pump Tools workbook and using PSI plus a few other inputs.

    But to answer your previous question, that spreadsheet is the same for the 011055.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall.

    Yeah thanks... sorry wrong model number 011055 is correct for intelliflo 2 vst.

    I'm not sure that I know all of the variables that are needed for pump tools workbook. I don't know all of the PSI variables and I don't know the pipe length. I do know diameter and could guesstimate the distance. Also my pump is not in the pumpdata tab.... so I'm just probably looking for a ballpark GPM estimate. I could install one of those check valves with the flowmeter but really what would be the point? I think I want to stay at reproducibly clean and clear of debris. Save energy.... otherwise I just don't want to overwork the filter at too high a pressure but since it is good to 50 psi I'm sure that it would be hard to do that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    anyone have thoughts on the waterfall and repair? I'm getting estimates from pool builders as they supposedly are the best equipped so far. There don't seem to be many if any in Tucson that do just repair. There are ones in Phoenix it seems. I don't think it is a do-it-yourself thing just based on my research but I'd like to know if anyone has done it themselves.

    Thanks.
    10K Gallon PebbleTec, waterfall, Paramount in ground cleaner, Pentair Intelliflo2 VST, Jandy DEL60 filter

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    Re: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall.

    Unfortunately the waterfalls rocks look to be poorly built. Any repair to them will likely be temporary and purely cosmetic.

    Artificial rocks can be built several ways (some much better than others) but it looks like yours are very thin and likely hollow. The trouble is that a quality repair will require chipping back to solid concrete, applying new concrete with a bonding agent and then adding whatever cosmetic touches you choose. You can see that by the rocks being hollow, there may not be anything solid to build off of.

    I have a neighbor in a very similar situation and unfortunately the bulk of his rockwork will need to be completely redone.
    -Brian-
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    Re: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall.

    Quote Originally Posted by cchin View Post
    Also my pump is not in the pumpdata tab....
    The workbook gets updated regularly and the latest version has that pump in. The ID is: IntelliFlo VS 011055
    Mark
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    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall.

    Hmm I'll have to look closer but it felt pretty solid not hollow in the waterfall. If I have to redo what does something like that usually cost?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    The workbook gets updated regularly and the latest version has that pump in. The ID is: IntelliFlo VS 011055
    How do you suggest I calculate the distance and psi you suggest in those sheets? And it looks like the new 011055 is slightly more efficient?
    10K Gallon PebbleTec, waterfall, Paramount in ground cleaner, Pentair Intelliflo2 VST, Jandy DEL60 filter

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    Re: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall.

    Price is going to vary quite a bit on how much work needs to be done as well as the extent of the repairs.

    Call around to a couple pool builders and ask who does their rock work. A lot of times the workers take on side work on the weekends.
    -Brian-
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    Re: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall.

    Quote Originally Posted by cchin View Post
    How do you suggest I calculate the distance and psi you suggest in those sheets? And it looks like the new 011055 is slightly more efficient?
    Count the number of steps from the pump to pool and multiply by 3'. For PSI, use the pump PSI. 011055 is the same efficiency as the 011018.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall.

    The only gauge I have is at the filter. Is that what you mean? I don't have a gauge anywhere else other than the in floor cleaner.

    And can't I just actually measure the actual distance? And should I be measuring from the floor drains (I have two near each other on the deep end). I didn't look but is it just taking an average guess with that calculation? Anything needed for depth?

    Thanks - this whole pool thing is a bit of work.

    Also getting quotes from a pool company or two. I'll see what they say on the waterfall. Like I mentioned it is pretty solid and not hollow. I checked again today. So maybe repairable I hope. Even if I get another 5-10 years I think I'd be happy.
    10K Gallon PebbleTec, waterfall, Paramount in ground cleaner, Pentair Intelliflo2 VST, Jandy DEL60 filter

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    Re: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall.

    Yes, sorry, I meant filter gauge. And yes you can measure and use average distance to the skimmers/MD or even an estimate is fine. Just get close, a few feet +- isn't going to make a big difference.

    Just make sure you enter the multi-port filter valve type (1 for 2" or 2 for 1.5") on line 36.

    You can compare the results from tab PSI2GPM vs Watts2GPM and they should be close but may not be identical. They use different methods to get to GPM.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: A few questions paramount in floor, intelliflo 2, de filter, cracks in waterfall.

    I'll give it a try when I have time. Pretty cool stuff you have on these sheets.
    10K Gallon PebbleTec, waterfall, Paramount in ground cleaner, Pentair Intelliflo2 VST, Jandy DEL60 filter

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