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Thread: Getting started, help with the basics.

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    WalterWhite's Avatar
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    Getting started, help with the basics.

    OK this is where I am. I have a new pool, my first, which l have been operating very well for the last three weeks, using only NaHOCl and HCl. I live in the, very, rural Philippines and I have no pool shops or contractors within 3 light years, so I am on my own.
    While I have a CL200 Trichlor feeder I am debating, with myself whether to use it, and instead rely on manual addition of 10% NaHOCl and 30% HCl. (Why does everybody call hydrochloric acid muriatic acid? New to me.)
    Why:
    1. Both are cheap here, and readily available.
    2. Avoids build up of CYA.
    3. May not be able to get TriChlor consistently and it costs an arm and leg to get from Manila.
    4. Don't have a CYA test kit. Although I am trying to find one.
    So far I have been dosing in evening testing in morning (usually 2ppm FC) and evening (usually <1ppm). HCl when needed about twice a week.
    It has been clear all of that time and no backwash has been needed, although I did one 2 days ago to test the system with the contractor.
    Questions:
    1. Is this sound practice?
    2. How often should I Slam?
    3. Slam target 10ppm or higher?
    4. Should I put a little CYA in, say one Trichlor tab to dissolve slowly through the feeder?
    5. I currently have 35 - 3 TriChlor tables, any estimate of how long these might last if I use them, days, weeks, months, I have no idea.

    Thank you all in advance for any help and insight that you can provide. Enjoy your pools!

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    WalterWhite's Avatar
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    Re: Getting started, help with the basics.

    Signature doesn't seem to be working, so here you go:

    Nueva Viscaya, Philippines, IG, 36cum reinforced concrete, ceramic tiles. Completed June 2016. Hayward kit: DE6020 filter with 6 way Vari-flow valve, Max Flow XL SP2707Z1M single speed pump, Chlorine Feeder CL200. Perimeter overflow skimmer to sump. Waterfall feature. In pool LED lighting. Test kit BlueDevil pH, TCl], FCl, Alk, TDS meter, pH meter. Filled from my own well.
    Nueva Viscaya, Philippines, IG, 36cum reinforced concrete, ceramic tiles. Completed June 2016. Hayward kit: DE6020 filter with 6 way Vari-flow valve, Max Flow XL SP2707Z1M single speed pump, Chlorine Feeder CL200. Perimeter overflow skimmer to sump. Waterfall feature. In pool LED lighting. Test kit BlueDevil pH, TCl], FCl, Alk, TDS meter, pH meter. Filled from my own well.

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    Jezza's Avatar
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    Re: Getting started, help with the basics.

    Firstly, with a new pool it is always good to check any special conditions that the pool builder has in relation to the necessary levels to maintain warranty if that is applicable in your area of the world. This may contradict the TFP recommendations so its best to default to their warranty condtions.

    It will be really hard for us to tell you what to recommend without a reliable CYA reading from a recommended test kit. You could check out these guys who specialise in shipping the Taylor K2006 and it would also be a good idea to stock up on reagents at the same time. www.poolvacparts.com

    You only need to SLAM if you get algae and while you could add the triclor tabs to add chlorine and CYA it can be risky if your not monitoring your levels
    11 000 gallons, IG, Fibreglass, Monarch Sand Filter, Davey Typhoon C100M 1HP pump, Davey Chloromatic Mc16CTO ESR SWG, Davey Pool Wall Climba Robot, Daisy Solar Cover,
    K-2006

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    Re: Getting started, help with the basics.

    You say the pool was just completed this month (June 2016), so unless you have used Trichlor or added CYA, your number should be zero.

    1. Is this sound practice?
    This site would agree that using liquid bleach and acid are the best way to go. You need the right test kit to get started. I would imagine that without CYA, you would be burning off a ton of chlorine in the Philippines if you are not shaded.

    2. How often should I Slam?
    SLAM when the FC gets to 0 or if you have cloudy/green water

    3. Slam target 10ppm or higher?
    It depends on your CYA measurement. Use pool math to calculate it.

    4. Should I put a little CYA in, say one Trichlor tab to dissolve slowly through the feeder?
    It's your call. It's sometimes easier to buy the CYA and add it instead of the Trichlor. It takes a long time to build up CYA with Trichlor. Plus, if you add CYA by itself, then you get exactly what you measure.

    5. I currently have 35 - 3” TriChlor tables, any estimate of how long these might last if I use them, days, weeks, months, I have no idea.
    Sorry, I never used these
    29,000 gallon vinyl liner custom designed lagoon style in-ground pool (self-built 2015-2016), Hayward EcoStar VS pump, Hayward HP21404T Heat Pump (140K BTU), Hayward Pro Grid DE DE6020 Filter with Fiber Clear, Hayward Tiger Shark, 2 Hayward Color-Logic LED lights, Stenner 45MPHP10
    370 gallon Jacuzzi J-345 spa with ClearRay UV

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    WalterWhite's Avatar
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    Re: Getting started, help with the basics.

    Update:


    I have now had water in the pool for a month now, and I think that I have a management programme that works, based on TFP wisdom. See below for pool details.
    This is what I do each day:
    1. Just as it gets dark 6:30pm I add 1.2L of beach (probably 10%, it doesn't say how strong on the label) at the returns and run pump for about 1:30h to mix.
    2. At 7am measure chlorine usually about 4ppm and pH.
    3. If necessary adjust pH with about 200 ml 30% Hydrochloric acid (about twice a week)
    4. Run pump for 1:00h
    5. Top up if it hasn't rained to do it for me.
    6. By evening FCl is close to zero as is CCl. Start again.image.jpg
    7. Weekly measure TDS which is steady at about 350ppm.


    No chlorine odour ever, pool crystal clear - see photo


    I have back washed once, to test system. Probably will only have to backwash monthly.


    I would be interested to hear any comments as to whether this viable as a long term management programme. Is there anything that anyone thinks could be done better.
    Nueva Viscaya, Philippines, IG, 36cum reinforced concrete, ceramic tiles. Completed June 2016. Hayward kit: DE6020 filter with 6 way Vari-flow valve, Max Flow XL SP2707Z1M single speed pump, Chlorine Feeder CL200. Perimeter overflow skimmer to sump. Waterfall feature. In pool LED lighting. Test kit BlueDevil pH, TCl], FCl, Alk, TDS meter, pH meter. Filled from my own well.

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    Jezza's Avatar
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    Re: Getting started, help with the basics.

    You are missing the vital ingredient- a recommended test kit-see Post #3. While your routine seems somewhat reasonable you are missing the fundamental understanding that the health of your pool is based on holding the correct FC levels for your CYA. Refer to the the Chlorine/CYA chart The Blue Devil does not test CYA or high levels of FC. If your chlorine level is nearly zero at night then you are inviting in organics.
    11 000 gallons, IG, Fibreglass, Monarch Sand Filter, Davey Typhoon C100M 1HP pump, Davey Chloromatic Mc16CTO ESR SWG, Davey Pool Wall Climba Robot, Daisy Solar Cover,
    K-2006

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    WalterWhite's Avatar
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    Re: Getting started, help with the basics.

    Jezza,
    Thanks for you input, greatly appreciated.
    I don't have or use CYA. My test kit measures Cl, pH and Alk (currently steady at about 90-100)
    Do I need CYA?
    What organics are there likely to be that are not neutralised by evening Cl dose?
    Nueva Viscaya, Philippines, IG, 36cum reinforced concrete, ceramic tiles. Completed June 2016. Hayward kit: DE6020 filter with 6 way Vari-flow valve, Max Flow XL SP2707Z1M single speed pump, Chlorine Feeder CL200. Perimeter overflow skimmer to sump. Waterfall feature. In pool LED lighting. Test kit BlueDevil pH, TCl], FCl, Alk, TDS meter, pH meter. Filled from my own well.

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    Jezza's Avatar
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    Re: Getting started, help with the basics.

    Walter- the CYA protects your chlorine from sunlight. Without it you will lose your FC very quickly during the day. Organics are constantly being added into your pool and so therefore you always need to have a minimum FC level for your relevant CYA level from the chart link above. CYA is a two edged sword and you don't want to have too much -you can see from the chart above that the higher the CYA level the higher you need to hold the FC level.

    If you want to follow the methodology we use on TFP you will need to get one of the recommended test kits- (I said it again) or it will be very difficult for us to advise you. Also read this link ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry.
    11 000 gallons, IG, Fibreglass, Monarch Sand Filter, Davey Typhoon C100M 1HP pump, Davey Chloromatic Mc16CTO ESR SWG, Davey Pool Wall Climba Robot, Daisy Solar Cover,
    K-2006

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    WalterWhite's Avatar
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    Re: Getting started, help with the basics.

    Thanks Jezza,
    i live in the very rural Philippines (10hr road trip to Manila). Getting CYA is not easy nor cheap. Also I can't just pop around the corner and get a K2006, I would love one. Even if I got one I could not be assured of replacement reagents. I am aiming to set in place a long term programme using what I can reliably procure locally.
    If l can manage without CYA I will.
    I don't want a CYA level that I am unable to measure or control.
    I would guess that I only have about 3 hrs daily with low Chlorine. Most of the time it is either high (overnight) or falling. No measurable CC, ever. I believe that any organics get aniliated with evening Cl dose. Additionally strong sunlight also disinfects.
    our swimming load is light, most days her indoors and me only.
    What am I missing?
    Nueva Viscaya, Philippines, IG, 36cum reinforced concrete, ceramic tiles. Completed June 2016. Hayward kit: DE6020 filter with 6 way Vari-flow valve, Max Flow XL SP2707Z1M single speed pump, Chlorine Feeder CL200. Perimeter overflow skimmer to sump. Waterfall feature. In pool LED lighting. Test kit BlueDevil pH, TCl], FCl, Alk, TDS meter, pH meter. Filled from my own well.

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    Jezza's Avatar
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    Re: Getting started, help with the basics.

    The link I provided in #3 are international shipping specialists so they would be a very good starting point- we have the same problem in Australia of getting the right test kit as well. Without CYA in your pool I can forsee that you will have problems down the track. You mentioned access to Trichlor tablets before - if you can't get stabiliser by itself then you might want to consider using tabs to get your CYA up and then to move onto liquid chlorine when you hit your target CYA level.
    11 000 gallons, IG, Fibreglass, Monarch Sand Filter, Davey Typhoon C100M 1HP pump, Davey Chloromatic Mc16CTO ESR SWG, Davey Pool Wall Climba Robot, Daisy Solar Cover,
    K-2006

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    AimeeH's Avatar
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    Re: Getting started, help with the basics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WalterWhite View Post
    Thanks Jezza,
    i live in the very rural Philippines (10hr road trip to Manila). Getting CYA is not easy nor cheap. Also I can't just pop around the corner and get a K2006, I would love one. Even if I got one I could not be assured of replacement reagents. I am aiming to set in place a long term programme using what I can reliably procure locally.
    If l can manage without CYA I will.
    I don't want a CYA level that I am unable to measure or control.
    I would guess that I only have about 3 hrs daily with low Chlorine. Most of the time it is either high (overnight) or falling. No measurable CC, ever. I believe that any organics get aniliated with evening Cl dose. Additionally strong sunlight also disinfects.
    our swimming load is light, most days her indoors and me only.
    What am I missing?

    As stated by jezza, CYA protects you FC from being burned off by sunlight. It also protects you if you decide to swim and there is any FC above about 2. I think you will find that eventually.....sooner or later you will have a fight against algae without CYA in the water as the sunlight will consume your chlorine and algae to start.

    You're certainly welcome to use your own pool management style if it works for you. It's a beautiful pool.
    18*36*23 true "L" vinyl IG 29,000 gallons. SWG. TF-100 test kit.
    http://tftestkits.net/splash-page.html

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    WalterWhite's Avatar
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    Re: Getting started, help with the basics.

    Hi Folks,

    An update. Firstly I know that I am going against the generally accepted wisdom of TFP and not using CYA, but it is through necessity not wanting to be different. It is difficult and expensive to get CYA here and I cannot guarantee a continued supply of it, so I decided to try to manage without.

    This is what I do:

    Daily at dusk I add 1.2L of 6.25% bleach (estimated, it doesn't have concentration on bottle). This gives me a FC of about 5ppm. No measurable CC. This falls to about 2ppm by morning and is gone by mid afternoon ((FC=0, TC=0) Every 3 days in early morning I add 300ml of 29% Hydrochloric acid to get pH down. (In future I will add 100ml daily) I run the filter for about 1hr morning and night. I top up with mains water about every 3 days but try to capture as much rain water as I can.
    I have done this for just over 2 months now and have had an extremely clear pool, not a hint of chlorinous odour or taste, not a single algal cell has been observed and no waterborne diseases have been reported. In this period the TDS has risen from 390 to 405 (I have a small hand held TDS meter).

    I have backwashed once in this time, more to test the kit than through necessity. I estimate that I will have to backwash about every 2-3 months.

    Most swimming is in the afternoon.

    This regime costs me about $25 per month for chemicals which are all available locally.

    I hope that this information is useful to others out there who may have supply problems.

    I would also be very pleased to receive comments or answer questions from the forum on my methodology, particularly as a long term strategy.
    Nueva Viscaya, Philippines, IG, 36cum reinforced concrete, ceramic tiles. Completed June 2016. Hayward kit: DE6020 filter with 6 way Vari-flow valve, Max Flow XL SP2707Z1M single speed pump, Chlorine Feeder CL200. Perimeter overflow skimmer to sump. Waterfall feature. In pool LED lighting. Test kit BlueDevil pH, TCl], FCl, Alk, TDS meter, pH meter. Filled from my own well.

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