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Thread: Do not understand Slam??

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    Do not understand Slam??

    I don't know anything about the 'SLAM' method... but wondering why it would take "days" to kill algae? Is that normal for this 'SLAM' method? All you need to kill algae is a gallon of acid and several jugs of chlorine. If you add the right amount of chlorine/acid, it should not take more than one shot (and 24hrs) to kill all the algae - 2 shots at most (and that's usually because you didn't add enough chlorine to begin with)... I guess none of this is really useful information to you now as you seem to have things under control.

    Mod Note: This is NOT TFP approved. Please see next post.

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    Re: Need help with my SLAM

    Quote Originally Posted by VikingPoolMan View Post
    I don't know anything about the 'SLAM' method... but wondering why it would take "days" to kill algae? Is that normal for this 'SLAM' method? All you need to kill algae is a gallon of acid and several jugs of chlorine. If you add the right amount of chlorine/acid, it should not take more than one shot (and 24hrs) to kill all the algae - 2 shots at most (and that's usually because you didn't add enough chlorine to begin with)... I guess none of this is really useful information to you now as you seem to have things under control.
    VikingPoolMan, please reread poolschool, this is not the pool store and we never recommend throwing chlorine/acid and you will get nowhere in 24 hours... Pool School - Pool School

    please do not post things like this until you get a better understanding of how and what to use in your pool before you recommend anything to new users..

    Skinpath, you are doing very good, just overshot a little bit
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    Re: Need help with my SLAM

    Understood. But disagree.... I've literally cleaned up a 1000 + green pools in Florida over the years using only acid/chlorine and it rarely (0.0001%) takes me more than 24 hours to kill all algae. Sorry if my question about the length of time SLAM requires to kill algae was offensive.

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    Re: Do not understand Slam??

    Quote Originally Posted by VikingPoolMan View Post
    I don't know anything about the 'SLAM' method... but wondering why it would take "days" to kill algae? Is that normal for this 'SLAM' method? All you need to kill algae is a gallon of acid and several jugs of chlorine. If you add the right amount of chlorine/acid, it should not take more than one shot (and 24hrs) to kill all the algae - 2 shots at most (and that's usually because you didn't add enough chlorine to begin with)... I guess none of this is really useful information to you now as you seem to have things under control.
    I understand that you are a pool professional in some capacity. Unfortunately, the method you propose will not work in a pool that contains stabilizer. What you are describing is the method of addiding a large amount of acid to drop the pH down to 7 or lower, then when you add bleach it will all turn into hypochlorous acid (HOCl) which is extremely effective at killing algae.

    Currently, many in the pool industry refuse to understand that CYA/Stabilizer affects the chlorine-pH relationship. The problem with the approach you propose is that anytime there is CYA in the water, the amount of HOCl produced by lowering the pH drastically decreases by orders of magnitude. With no CYA, the addition of bleach at a pH of 6 can result in almost 98% hypochlorous acid being formed. When just 30ppm of CYA is present, the fractional amount of HOCl drops to about 7%. Most of the chlorine is bound to the CYA.

    So your proposed method of trying to force lots of HOCl production simply does not work in the context of a moderately stabilized or over-stabilized pool.

    This is the problem we find with most members who show up at TFP. They have been given advice from professionals that is "guaranteed" to work, but it didn't. Everyone sits around and scratches their head wondering why. The science behind pool water maintenance has been moving forward, but the pool industry has not been keeping pace. One only needs to look at the recommendations the "industry" provides for chlorine levels in pools or the CYA levels in pools to see that there is a problem. The pool store I wen to when I first purchased my house said that I needed to keep my FC between 1 - 3 and that CYA was fine up to 150. FC at 3 with a CYA level of 150 just won't work.

    We base our pool care system on accurate testing and only adding what the pool needs, when it needs it. To do that pool owners need their own accurate test kit. Many would just say, go to the pool store and have them test your water. Not much credence is given to pool store testing around here. While you would think that a "professional" would be the best, unfortunately in most cases it is quite the opposite. Between employees who blindly trust the word of chemical sales representatives and high school kids working in the pool store for the summer you end up with poor results from their testing. We have hundreds of folks show up here each year with stories of the pool water testing they have received from pool care "professionals".

    The science behind what we teach (the CYA/FC relationship) has been published in peer reviewed papers beginning in 1973.

    We invite you to do some reading in Pool School and understand our methods a little more.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Do not understand Slam??

    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    I understand that you are a pool professional in some capacity. Unfortunately, the method you propose will not work in a pool that contains stabilizer. What you are describing is the method of addiding a large amount of acid to drop the pH down to 7 or lower, then when you add bleach it will all turn into hypochlorous acid (HOCl) which is extremely effective at killing algae.

    Currently, many in the pool industry refuse to understand that CYA/Stabilizer affects the chlorine-pH relationship. The problem with the approach you propose is that anytime there is CYA in the water, the amount of HOCl produced by lowering the pH drastically decreases by orders of magnitude. With no CYA, the addition of bleach at a pH of 6 can result in almost 98% hypochlorous acid being formed. When just 30ppm of CYA is present, the fractional amount of HOCl drops to about 7%. Most of the chlorine is bound to the CYA.

    So your proposed method of trying to force lots of HOCl production simply does not work in the context of a moderately stabilized or over-stabilized pool.

    This is the problem we find with most members who show up at TFP. They have been given advice from professionals that is "guaranteed" to work, but it didn't. Everyone sits around and scratches their head wondering why. The science behind pool water maintenance has been moving forward, but the pool industry has not been keeping pace. One only needs to look at the recommendations the "industry" provides for chlorine levels in pools or the CYA levels in pools to see that there is a problem. The pool store I wen to when I first purchased my house said that I needed to keep my FC between 1 - 3 and that CYA was fine up to 150. FC at 3 with a CYA level of 150 just won't work.

    We base our pool care system on accurate testing and only adding what the pool needs, when it needs it. To do that pool owners need their own accurate test kit. Many would just say, go to the pool store and have them test your water. Not much credence is given to pool store testing around here. While you would think that a "professional" would be the best, unfortunately in most cases it is quite the opposite. Between employees who blindly trust the word of chemical sales representatives and high school kids working in the pool store for the summer you end up with poor results from their testing. We have hundreds of folks show up here each year with stories of the pool water testing they have received from pool care "professionals".

    The science behind what we teach (the CYA/FC relationship) has been published in peer reviewed papers beginning in 1973.

    We invite you to do some reading in Pool School and understand our methods a little more.
    Wow, I was not expecting that response.

    First, I am a "licensed pool contractor" (not just a CPO guy that runs routes) with over 10 years of experience... I've personally been involved in well over 1000 + cleanups. I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering so I probably understand "chemistry/science" better than most people on here. My pool company services several hundred pools each week. You don't get to where I am by blindly listening to advice from people on cleanups, equipment, etc. My credentials, experience and the success of my pool company prove I know what I am doing. And it should prove to you that I have a right to have an intelligent conversation with people (without being talked down to) - even if I disagree with "moderators". That being said, I am a humble person and always listen to people because I know there is still much to learn in this industry.

    Ok, that's my background... and I can prove all of it. With that being said, please share with me your background/experience? I would like to know more about the person "talking down to me" in my field of expertise ... And I want to know more about you than your status or "number of posts" on this forum.... Are you a licensed pool contractor? How many pools does your company service each week and how many cleanups have you done? Even if you don't have more experience than me, I will still listen to what you have to say and concede that you might know more than I do about certain things. If you have more experience than me, great! Then all I ask is you respect my experience and background instead of sticking your nose in the air and talking down to me.

    On another note, if "outside opinions" from proven "licensed pool professionals" are not welcomed on this forum, please let me know. I believe if you want good/fresh knowledge on this forum, then you should welcome people like me here i.e. "proven pool professionals". Even if my opinion differs from moderators, I should be allowed to state it... if that is against the rules, please let me know. I believe my experience and my success in the pool industry prove I have the right to speak here intelligently and give advice. If that advice is not welcomed, please let me know now.

    Last, I will gladly debate with you as to why I believe it's smarter to use chlorine / acid (hard shock) to clean a green pool as opposed to worrying about CYA levels etc (all of the stuff you mentioned, I've heard for years... it's not new information so please don't try to "wow" me by citing "research papers" on cya/chlorine. I know that information already and believe my way of cleaning up a pool is better. In any case, that argument would be for another time.

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    Re: Do not understand Slam??

    Just to add one more item, the pool store nuke it approach may kill off all the algae, but it can also be very hard on the pool and equipment, particularly in the case of vinyl pool liners. The vast majority of our members are pool owners that care about the life of their multi-thousand dollar pool liners, etc. So don't generally mind an algae kill process that may take days to complete, but only takes a couple hours of their time, since they will be around the house anyway vs the damage high FC an low pH levels can do. Where a typical pool professional must prioritize their time vs the well being of a particular pool and generally don't have 4-5 minutes at a time throughout the day to maintain certain FC levels in one pool in order to have a safe and effective method of eliminating algae.

    Ike

    p.s. we welcome debate and input from your experience, we just ask that you don't go preaching to and confusing all the new members that come here for help by advocating methods that we have found to cause problems.
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
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    Re: Do not understand Slam??

    VikingPoolMan.

    This thread is wasting time and I am going to close it.

    You are certainly welcome to clean your pools in any manner you see fit.

    This is a teaching forum.......not an arguing forum. Since you are here for the argument, you are on the wrong website.

    If you want to learn what we teach (I would guess you don't), you are welcome to stay and learn but you are not welcome to stay and argue.....that's not what we do.

    If you know better than what we teach, I suggest you start your own website and begin to teach your methods to others. Or if you don't want to teach anyone, perhaps you could start your own arguing website where I am sure your opinions will be examined carefully.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
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