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Thread: Any ponders out there?

  1. #21
    Senior Member DrDave's Avatar
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    Re: Any ponders out there?

    55 gallon drum bio filters are better than the stock tank. There are so called experts that will say the 55 gallon drum is not as good, but the additional height is what makes them better. If you can't find a plastic drum, get a new trash can, just buy a HD one and it will work fine.
    DrDave
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    Necessity is the Mother of Invention

  2. #22
    Administrator JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Any ponders out there?

    Two pumps of different sizes that are plumbed in parallel should not be run at the same time. The stronger pump will overpower the weaker pump and the weaker pump will not be able to move any water.

    It makes a lot more sense to use your most recent diagram, where the outputs are not combined. That way they can both run at the same time. By the by, that diagram shows three check valves. You only need two of them. The check valve on the "from pond" line is not required.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member taekwondodo's Avatar
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    Re: Any ponders out there?

    Yes, that thought did occur to me.

    Currently, the WF and filter is plumed inline with the WAVE II pump. I may just make that a "water feature" and throw a barrel filter (or two) in the line of the smaller pump...

    Now that I have time - I'm going to see what I can do to get that plumed with a "low operational cost" pump.
    ~45Kg Pool with attached Spa, NSP-72 DE, Minmax 400 Heater, Tahoe Blue Pebbletech, Jandy SWG via Aqualink RS-8, The Pool Cleaner (black)
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  4. #24
    Senior Member DrDave's Avatar
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    Re: Any ponders out there?

    I agree completely. That CV between the small pump and bio filter is definetly needed to avoid sucking the sludge that accumulates in the bio filter back into the pond. I learned that the hard way.
    DrDave
    http://plansbyjorde.tripod.com
    Necessity is the Mother of Invention

  5. #25
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    Re: Any ponders out there?

    Just saw this post. I have a a couple of ponds up and running. One has 14 koi ranging from about 10" up to about 26". The other is my Q-tank which I just finished so my 2 new koi can be quaratined for a few months. Working on another pond in my non-existant spare time.

    You have a 5k pond, plumbed as a pool which means one circuit from the skimmer to the sand filter. With a electrical hog pump due to having a pressurized filter. If you have the time and inclination, I would run two separate circuits. One from the skimmer and one from a retro-fit bottom drain. (assuming your pond is concrete with no way to put in a regular bottom drain).

    I would ditch the sand filter. If it's being turned off daily - you are just running your water through a cess-pool. As said above - the beneficial bacteria are just dying every time the water is cut off. Plus you are paying a lot of $$$$ for a high-head pump when you could get a smaller pump that would pay for itself probably in a year or so. Also - sand filters are good for pools, but for ponds - all they do is trap **** which then becomes a nasty stinky mess - don't believe me - just open it up and stick your head in and sniff.

    I don't know how much space you have, but 55gallon barrels make very good filters - just get ones that had food products - (I picked up several for about $15 apiece around here) - you don't want residual chemicals that leached into the barrels killing your fish.

    I would run one pump from a bottom drain to barrel with some sort of media designed to mechanically filter out solids, then to another barrel with more media that is designed to be a bio-reactor. Preferably with some sort of air added as fish can never get enough oxygen in the water. Then back to the pond. If at all possible, the pump needs to be after the last barrel. The filter barrels would have to have the same water level as the pond to do this so that they would be filled by water gravity flowing into them as it is pumped out of the last filter back to the pond. Reason for this is that if pump is before the filters, then all the crud, etc is pureed by the pump impeller and is that much harder to separate out. As far as filter media - people have used all kinds, from plastic strapping, to matting, to pvc shavings. Some are cheaper than others - but some are a lot easier to clean than others and the easier it is to clean, the more it will be done.

    I believe you said you had a 3/4 hp Wave II. With the setup I described above, you could switch it out for a William Lim 1/4 hp Wave I. I have one that uses something like 236 watts and pumps well over 3000 gph. I would go with 2" pvc plumbing after the pump and if you can gravity flow the filters before the pump, go with 4" pvc so you don't starve the pump.

    Second circuit would be from the skimmer as now. I would ditch the high pressure, hard to clean sand filter and do two more 55 gallon barrels. Sequence is another brand of pump with a very good reputation. You can get a 1/6 or 1/8 hp model that puts out a ton of water and only draws about 150 watts. I have one on my qtank that has been working great for 3+ years.

    This is only a very, brief down-n-dirty suggestion. I belong to a couple of other forums that are devoted to koi keeping. Koi are very dirty fish and can grow very large. So a good filter system is important. I also have some comet goldfish and they are nowhere near as messy as the koi.
    If you are interested, I can pm a link to a koi forum. Some I would suggest, others not so much. I'm just not sure about the rules on posting a link from here.


    One other thing to remember - just as I learned the term "pool-stored" after coming here, the same principle applies to ponding. They will take something, slap the word "koi" in front of the name and instantly the price trebles. And there is a world of not-so-good information out there to wade through until you can find the people that are truly knowledgable and not just wanting to sell you something.
    Eddie

  6. #26
    Senior Member DrDave's Avatar
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    Re: Any ponders out there?

    Very well said Eddie.
    DrDave
    http://plansbyjorde.tripod.com
    Necessity is the Mother of Invention

  7. #27
    Senior Member taekwondodo's Avatar
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    Re: Any ponders out there?

    The two largest issues I have in the current design is
    1) There is no access to the pond piping (it's part of the skimmer/under the concrete deck), so I have one line from the skimmer and the bottom drain... and

    2) There is no way to put the pump after the filters/have them gravity fed because of the location of the pond and the height of the pool pad.

    I'll check into the newer Wave I pump. I chose the one I have now because of the head pressure for the waterfall... I took sand out of the filter years ago and replaced it with "Ultra Media http://www.fancykoioutlet.com/supply/filter_media.htm", but am aware of what I'm doing to the bio-bed each time it shuts off. I replaced the sand after it stopped backwashing (it was really gross, black and very anaerobic in many spots).

    I'm going to re-think the whole filter/flow design and see what I can come up with. Looking for some cheap 55G plastic food-grade drums now...

    I'll post the design onto this thread when I get it done for CC&Rs.
    ~45Kg Pool with attached Spa, NSP-72 DE, Minmax 400 Heater, Tahoe Blue Pebbletech, Jandy SWG via Aqualink RS-8, The Pool Cleaner (black)
    Pumps: X3 Hybrid Pump (switches to SPA), 2HP Spa (additional, when SPA is on), and a 1HP For Waterfall
    8, 4x12 Solar Panels on the roof of the pool-house (~12' up)
    CAPTAIN JAMES T. KIRK: "I'M SORRY. I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF HOW AWESOME I AM" (Thanks to TFP!)

  8. #28
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    Re: Any ponders out there?

    I wish you luck on your plumbing configurations. It can be very frustrating when trying to put on paper what your brain wants to do. But you asked about contact info. One place I received a lot of help is allexperts.com. Apparently it is a volunteer site with knowledgable peoplemanning the sites. I have received good, simple advice on different pond subjects as well as gardening info, this site covers a remarkable number of subjects. I also have lkearned a lot from a local pond society membership. I don't go to meetings much, but with my membership I have access to a forum of local people (experiencing the same environmental issues) with pond experience and I pick up a number of interesting facts, ideas, maintenance issues by reading the online newsletter.
    I go for simplicity and patience to get clear pretty pond water. Many folks have UV lights to kill the algae, I am trying to keep my life as natural (inexpensive/cheap) as possible. If a pond has enough mechanical,biological and vegetative filtration, then the whole thing seems to work like a normal healthy ecosystem and clears itself up when all the filters beat the algae for survival. It takes a good long wait compared to the pool, to do it naturally. Especially with the temps rising, sun shine and breeding going on. My pond is always beautiful and clear all winter, then Spring hits and the water goes to...."Do you think the fish are still in there? I hope there are no illness or disease going on, because I can't see it if there is"
    I also think keeping your bacteria in your biological filtration aerated and alive is very important. I love my pond and my fish and the water features are very soothing. I can get in the pond and hang out with the fish, claiming pump maintenance, plant care, light care. I had my Dad make me a rope ladder that I lower the end into the pond so I can climb out again because the vinyl over an inward sloping wall is very slick indeed!
    60+ year old 50'x15' IG 30K gal LRB coated cinderblock with no drains, no skimmers, all plumbing external, spent the last 3 years chipping to substrate to patch, repair and coat with a pool sealing product from Sanitred by myself to hopefully eliminate 2 months yearly getting the antique pool ready. The original "cement pond"

  9. #29
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    Re: Any ponders out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by taekwondodo
    The two largest issues I have in the current design is
    1) There is no access to the pond piping (it's part of the skimmer/under the concrete deck), so I have one line from the skimmer and the bottom drain... and

    This does pose a problem. I didn't notice before that skimmer and BD were on the same line. This is going to always cause you grief because it is hard to balance the draw from both with one pump.

    Just throwing out wild suggestions because I don't know the exact way things are set up - any way to tunnel under (I know - BIG PITA) the deck and separate the lines? Or somehow close off the bottom drain and use a retro-fit bottom drain? You would still have to cross the deck, but maybe the piping could be hidden under a step or something?

    2) There is no way to put the pump after the filters/have them gravity fed because of the location of the pond and the height of the pool pad.

    I'll check into the newer Wave I pump. I chose the one I have now because of the head pressure for the waterfall... I took sand out of the filter years ago and replaced it with "Ultra Media http://www.fancykoioutlet.com/supply/filter_media.htm", but am aware of what I'm doing to the bio-bed each time it shuts off. I replaced the sand after it stopped backwashing (it was really gross, black and very anaerobic in many spots).

    Also check out Sequence pumps. Both are very good, have low energy consumption, and have good reputations. Good on ditching the sand. In a pond, very quickly it clogs up and ends up channeling and gets nasty.

    If you can at all get the circuits separated, I would put the barrels on the bottom drain and the sand/bead filter on the end of the skimmer circuit. That way it could filter out the "fines" that don't settle to the bottom of the pond and remain suspended in the water.


    I'm going to re-think the whole filter/flow design and see what I can come up with. Looking for some cheap 55G plastic food-grade drums now...

    Craigslist is your friend.....

    I'll post the design onto this thread when I get it done for CC&Rs.
    Since it looks like we can post links to other forums. One I find helpful is http://www.koishack.com. Go to the pond construction sub-forum and stickied at the top is a bunch of DIY projects like filters, etc. Several are made from barrels. It is a forum populated by both people who buy 5-figure fish and show them and people like me whose pond budget is basically the spare change in the couch. Lots of good reading there from beginning to advanced.
    Eddie

  10. #30
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    Re: Any ponders out there?

    Ok,

    Just stumbled across the photos of your pond/pool. WOW!

    Got a couple of ideas once I saw it. Still think you need to separate the drain and skimmer. Close off old bottom drain if there is not way to get to its pipes. Put in a retro-bottom drain and run the pipe over the edge on the tree side. If possible, maybe remove one rock and run pipe and then replace rock to camoflauge. Or use some sort of plant/shrub to hide the pipework. This isn't the ideal setup - but it should help you out without massive reconstruction. I can see now how it would be hard to get to the existing pipework due to the deck.
    Eddie

  11. #31
    Senior Member taekwondodo's Avatar
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    Re: Any ponders out there?

    I got the two drums today, have checked out the koi forum and have a few ideas. going to stick with a single line w/two pumps and two returns for now, and see how that works for a while.

    Thanks for the tips.

    - Jeff
    ~45Kg Pool with attached Spa, NSP-72 DE, Minmax 400 Heater, Tahoe Blue Pebbletech, Jandy SWG via Aqualink RS-8, The Pool Cleaner (black)
    Pumps: X3 Hybrid Pump (switches to SPA), 2HP Spa (additional, when SPA is on), and a 1HP For Waterfall
    8, 4x12 Solar Panels on the roof of the pool-house (~12' up)
    CAPTAIN JAMES T. KIRK: "I'M SORRY. I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF HOW AWESOME I AM" (Thanks to TFP!)

  12. #32
    Member Titus's Avatar
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    Re: Any ponders out there?

    I know I am bringing an old post back from the dead, but I am a former ponder that hopes to be a ponder again someday. I had a pretty good sized concrete pond with a bunch of koi in a house we owned for too short a time. The pond was put in by the prior owner, and the homemade filtration he had set up just didn't work very well. I replaced it with an Advantage bead filter w/ UV light from Sacramentokoi.com and LOVED it. The pond was always crystal clear after that and was a breeze to maintain. Sadly we were in the house less than 2 years when I was transfered, and I have made it clear to the wife that someday we will have another koi pond. When that day comes, I will get the equipment from Sacramento Koi. I attached some pictures, but I can't seem to find any from when the yard was all finished.
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    32x16 DoughBoy Autumn Breeze with partial bury, 7' deep end, happy bottom, and Access wedding cake steps.
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  13. #33
    Senior Member DrDave's Avatar
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    Re: Any ponders out there?

    Nothing wrong with resurrecting an old thread.
    Wow, someone put a lot of time and money into that. Looks like the fence was put up to keep toddlers out of harms way.

    I personally prefer the natural look. I have several videos on my pond and an interview that was professionally done on Koi if anyone cares to see them. They have links at the bottom of the home page.
    http://drdaveskoi.tripod.com/
    DrDave
    http://plansbyjorde.tripod.com
    Necessity is the Mother of Invention

  14. #34
    Member Titus's Avatar
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    Re: Any ponders out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrDave
    Nothing wrong with resurrecting an old thread.
    Wow, someone put a lot of time and money into that. Looks like the fence was put up to keep toddlers out of harms way.

    I personally prefer the natural look. I have several videos on my pond and an interview that was professionally done on Koi if anyone cares to see them. They have links at the bottom of the home page.
    http://drdaveskoi.tripod.com/
    Cool site! My wife was 7 months pregnant when we moved in to the house, so she insisted on the fence. I also added the grass, colored concrete patio and path to pond, and bark that you can see in the picture. After the picture above where taken, I also added bark and a palm tree to the right of the pond, and planted bamboo along the back fence. I was preparing to cover the ugly concrete edge of the pond with flagstone when I got word I was being transfered.
    32x16 DoughBoy Autumn Breeze with partial bury, 7' deep end, happy bottom, and Access wedding cake steps.
    Pentair DE FNS Plus 48 with Pentair Challenger 1.5 hp.
    Order placed 6/13/10. Excavation started 6/15. First swim 6/18. Two thumbs up for DoughBoy, Crown Pools, and Mendez Pools and Decks.

  15. #35
    Senior Member NWMNMom's Avatar
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    Re: Any ponders out there?

    I have had two small ponds (6'x5'x30" deep and a 2'x3'x 18" deep) for about 15 years, we used to have a third (8'x6'x36" deep) and also a whiskey barrel pond on the deck. The third pond went away when we built a new stable for the horses in that area and the whiskey barrell was more work than the ponds. I have Koi, Shebunkins and Goldfish which are all brought in to a 150 gallon stock tank in my garage for the winter (it has a stocktank heater that keeps it no lower than 32 degrees) We have found that the biggest key things are: Have LOTS of underwater plants - the more of that, the less artificial/mechanical filtration you require and 2) Get those lillies started early so you get top of water coverage early on - then there is less algae growth from sunlight in the water (mine go in the stock tank with the fish for the winter - they are all at the top of the water when I put them out in the spring) and 3) Do NOT over feed your fish - they do not require constant piles of food, which spoil the water and they tend to breed a lot more with over feeding. I don't need 100s of babies every year.
    18x33x52 Buttressfree Seaspray (Wilbar) AGP - 1.5hp Pentair Maxim w/22" Pentair Meteor Sand Filter, Aqua Rite SWG System, Biltmore Walk In Steps - 2/4x20 Solar Panel Setup - Pool Rover Jr - finally hard plumbed the whole darned thing -
    Beats Driving to the Lake!

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