16 July 2024 Finishing Up my OB Pool

Also, went by my local pool store to find a good local source for liquid chlorine. Pinch a Penny has it for $10/2.5 gal jug and a free jug with each one filled. So $5 each... used to be $3 pre-covid. At least I'll only be jug-lugging for 30 days or so 'till l fire up the swg

Wow, $5 for each for those jugs is a really good price. I am going to start going to pinch a penny instead of Leslies.
 
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Around here you’re lucky if you can find 10% LC that costs $14 for 2 gallons (disposable jugs). The refillable ones aren’t much cheaper. Acid has gone through the roof at nearly $10/gallon …
 
Around here you’re lucky if you can find 10% LC that costs $14 for 2 gallons (disposable jugs). The refillable ones aren’t much cheaper. Acid has gone through the roof at nearly $10/gallon …
Wow! SWG must really payout at that price. Used to be about breakeven when I could get it net about $1.40/gal and swg was about $870 for an RJ 30+. Now it's $1170. So it's 35% higher. Chlorine has almost doubled at the best sale price I can find. Normal price is 4x unless I can find it on sale. Sale price was readily available before not so much now.

Chris
 
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Folks,

Unplanned spare time from construction is a good thing sometimes. Learning/preparing for my RPi set up is invaluable... I also have time for a few other related items like getting my 10K thermocouples and fittings to install them into proper thermowells like @Katodude did. Much better installation in my opinion but there are some details that need to be addressed not so obvious at first. I think I have that addressed and if anybody wants details let me know.

Next up on my "to-do" list was CO2 injection. Seems like there's a lot of negativity about that for good reasons. But that was the same for salt pools and things have changed somewhat. First thing I do is try to get the facts and for pool chemistry we have great access to experts. @JoyfulNoise and @JamesW have left a trail of great information that I'm still getting my arms around. Matt actually referenced a post from James that has been invaluable:

3.67 lbs CO2 is equal to adding 1 gallon of acid as far as lowering the pH.
Edit: It depends on the final target pH. For a target pH of 7.8, you need 3.8 lbs CO2. For a target pH of 7.5, you need 3.9 lbs CO2. For a target pH of 7.0, you need 4.49 lbs CO2 to match the pH drop of one gallon of 31.45% muriatic acid.
For example, with a TA of 110, you need 26 oz acid to lower the pH from 7.8 to 7.5. That's equivalent to 0.79 lb or 12.68 oz (weight) CO2.
Also, that's at 100% of the carbon dioxide getting dissolved into the water.

If the injection process is not good, you might have low efficiency in transfer, which will cause you to use more.

I always try to work the simple stuff first. Is it available for retail? First I called one of the large CO2 vendors for soft drink machines. Answer was easy "NO CAN DO". The only other source I could find was welding gas supplier. Answer there much different, "don't do it a lot but more and more are doing it and yes we can supply your needs with refilling".

So next issue is will it work. Technically I think the experts say it will. But it's a little more complicated since CO2 does not reduce TA like acid does. And it takes more CO2 to lower pH compared to acid depending on how low you want to maintain pH. So now it's getting a little more complicated. But it still appears that if I run my pH on the high end (I always did that with 7.8-8.0 range and it worked well). I will need ~3.8#/CO2 for every gallon of muriatic acid. Then there's the non-technical will it work? Seems like other's experience was that starting and stopping flow systems was the biggest issue here. I plan to run my monster 5 hp pump 24/7 and I would think this should be easier to keep constant flow of CO2. So I think I pass that part to make this worthwhile.

Last is operating cost. My new pool is over 2x my previous pool size so this is more important. The up front cost for a 50# tank varies a lot but seems like $150 is common. Then there's the injection system - they run around $1200. Don't know if I want to spend that much because I don't really need a lot of flow regulation. I can just set the flow rate through a roto-meter and have a high pH range that shuts the system down if anything gets messed up (pretty easy on my RPi to configure this). Once I get the proper amount of flow I should have great control over pH. So long as this system is about the same cost as acid and it works I much prefer it. I hate jug-lugging acid. Just like I hated jug-lugging chlorine. This is certainly a personal preference thing but for me tie goes to CO2... lugging 50# cylinders may get old too but not too bad with my dolly straight out to the pad from the car and 2 cylinders should last several months at least. Cost per # turns out to be a big advantage to CO2. Previous articles indicated it was about equivilent. The sellers of injection systems say CO2 is 20%. I'm finding CO2 is $.92/# so 3.8# is a little less than $3.50. Latest cost for acid is about $9/gal. (wow! that used to be $5-6).

Jury's still out on this but at least it's definitely doable, and cost effective if I install my simple way. Not sure how much TA I'll have to deal with and that will require acid but things are looking positive. My prior pool I had no trouble keeping TA 50-70 but I was adding acid also.

As always suggestions and comments welcome.

Chris

EDIT *** PS I made no attempt to price search for CO2 or acid. Just googled and called one supplier for CO2 since I've never bought that before.
 
Worth a try but if you’re going to pushing a lot of water over the pool edge then you’re going to use more CO2 than you expect. There’s no harm in trying but I think liquid acid is the better way to go. You can get an IntelliPh (or build your own) to do the injection and then use a 15 gallon tank for storage. That much storage should keep the refill frequency to a minimum. New plaster is going to keep you on the pH rocket for a good long time so either system will likely need a lot of tending too until the plaster settles down.
 
I agree with Matt. C02 is more complicated and I don’t see the advantage. I also don’t understand how dealing with a 50lb steel cylinder is less trouble than a <10 lb jug of acid😂

I have an acid pump and I wouldn’t want to be without it. Highly recommended.

Was your last pool’s fill water as high in alkalinity as this one?
 
I agree with Matt. C02 is more complicated and I don’t see the advantage. I also don’t understand how dealing with a 50lb steel cylinder is less trouble than a <10 lb jug of acid😂

I have an acid pump and I wouldn’t want to be without it. Highly recommended.

Was your last pool’s fill water as high in alkalinity as this one?
Appreciate the comments Brian. Pretty consistent with the other experts here. I would just chalk this one up to a combination of personal preference and curiosity.

Last pool fill water was not quite as high has this water but still definitely required acid to get it down to 50 PPM. I used borates for a couple of years. Seems like my plaster took almost 2 years to cure but it finally did and then acid consumption went down quite a bit so I was only adding about once per week. And much smaller amounts.

Chris
 
However, the byproduct of having a 50lb CO2 tank will be a lifetime of free club soda.
Didn't think of that! Refill my Soda Stream forever right here at home! Maybe a direct line to my outdoor kitchen for unlimited scotch and soda's... I'm gonna need more relays on the RPi for sure. Can I add a custom switch for "Dispense 4 oz club soda"?

Chris
 

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Can I add a custom switch for "Dispense 4 oz club soda"?

I am on board. We are going to need some custom piping, an automated valve. Should not be too hard.

For about $35 you can buy a Sodastream refill hose and adaptor for a large CO2 tank.
 
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So I am doing a little more thinking about this and I think we should also automate the Bourbon/Scotch dispenser.

I am going to need some surgical tubing, another valve. We are going to need a pump, probably peristaltic. Then I am going to need about another 45 miles of tubing and another stronger pump and for Chris to look the other way while I am installing that part.
 
So I am doing a little more thinking about this and I think we should also automate the Bourbon/Scotch dispenser.

I am going to need some surgical tubing, another valve. We are going to need a pump, probably peristaltic. Then I am going to need about another 45 miles of tubing and another stronger pump and for Chris to look the other way while I am installing that part.
There goes the budget!
 
There goes the budget!
Budget went a long time ago. First Covid, supply chain that increased the home build by 22% then on the pool we (I) decided to go real fancy on the zero edge without reducing the size of the pool. And after many attempts to resist I went with a full picture window enclosure for the entire roof line at the back of the house and the last final salvo was decision to tile the entire 1026 ft2 with the marble tile pool pavers. What's a budget?
 
26 April 2024 : Construction in progress again!

Folks,
Much better day today. We've lost almost 4 weeks in schedule due to medical trips to Houston... some things are just not avoidable. But then we come back to a tile delay and tile sub that misunderstood schedule importance to me and the need to communicate completely. Turns out he thought if he was doing something important it was OK to just not show up even if I was expecting him onsite. The first day is always my kickoff day so I was prepared to go over the entire job with him and make final, important decisions with his input on a LOT of details. He's not used to working for builders that do this. That's a big part of why I'm doing an OB. I've seen way to many examples on this site and in OB work where builders don't take the time to do this and then when the owner finds out he blames it on the sub, or supply chain, or Covid or many other things and the owner is stuck with an unnecessary repair, delay, and cost. Sorry for a little rant but I'm trying to make sure any potential novice OB's need to know they have to do a lot to OB a pool. So we had our K/O meeting and got good alignment on a lot of details. He also provided some great input on how to arrange the tile as well as accents that he thinks this pool should have... huge improvements. Nice to see he's not only skilled with the tile installation but also pretty artistic and he really wants to be proud of his work. Last alignment item was about how well cell phones work when there's a change to the plan or any kind of emergency.

Once we got done with our 30 min K/O it was great to hear the chipper working to clean up concrete. Sound of progress is good! The gunite shoot quality was great but there was a small amount of leakage at the bottom of the infinity wall in the basin.

Once they got going I shifted gears to setting up all the stuff I need for the RPi control system and setting equipment. Started this morning with layout of the power supply box. HV Power will enter at bottom left and LV power will provide power feed out the bottom right side for the large automation/control box that will be mounted on the wall to the right of power supply box. Automation box will be this afternoon and I'm getting the electrician to make sure we have power to the sub-panel and prepared to final hookup the equipment.

Chris

Prepping the basin that has some excess concrete in bottom
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Tile guy is also filling trenches about 12" to leave the bonding loop visible for equipotential bonding inspection next week. When he's done access will be much better and
way less chance to trip and fall. Construction safety is a must for me. Looks like quite a few rebar safety hats have come off I'll need to address that today.
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Laying out the power supply box.
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You KNOW I LOVE to hear things like this! Glad you were able to work your way though that and came in an agreement!
Thanks Kim and yeah me too. Before our meeting I really had given up on him and was in the process of contacting #2 bidder. I think your direct line prayers must have turned it around again! When I did my site visits this guy really had better site organization, and the quality was superb with uniform thickness and color. #2 was good just not quite as good. Skilled workers are really hard to find and worth the effort to work things out. Now that I've seen a full day's work I'm sure this was a good decision. They even put my construction fence back up and replaced all the rebar safety hats without one word from me.

Chris
 
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K/O Meetings

I've mentioned Kickoff meetings several times and thought it might be good to add an outline/example. Best way I found to do this is to let the contractor know this is a requirement at award. This is the point where you have maximum influence with him. Also, respect his time 30 min should be plenty of time. Here's what we covered in the meeting with tile/plaster:
  1. Safety requirements
    • Protective gear
    • Emergency procedure (serious injury call 911 first, call me second)
    • Interference from neighbors or anyone else call me
  2. Job Plan
    • What is his plan to do the work? - make sure he understands anything "non-standard" about this job and I understand how he plans to do the rest. In my case the zero edge is a LOT different and top edge level is extremely critical. Pool won't work if this isn't done right. I wanted to know his plan to be sure it complies with best practices especially surface prep, waterproof/bond coat, and specific name of products including plaster. If there are any misunderstandings this is the last opportunity to resolve without interfering with the work.
    • How big is his crew, address parking and bathroom, eating area
    • Materials delivery/storage
    • Interface with other contractors
    • Details - for example, we want some decorative tile - what does he think would work best. Make sure he knows you appreciate/value his expertise.
  3. Communication
    • Exchange personal cell phone numbers - one calls the other right there and save the number. Don't accept an office number.
    • Who's in charge of his crew? If it's not the owner I need to meet him and I expect him on site at all times unless mutually agreed in advance
    • When I expect a call. Injuries, any unexpected problems
    • It's owner's responsibility to deal with neighbors. Take the initiative to explain what's going on with them and to call me if they have any concerns. Please do not direct the contractor.
Most of this is just common sense and well established practice for industrial and commercial construction. But I found it's almost unheard of for most residential and pool construction.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris
 

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